United States of America and Gun Control and Ban of High Powered Guns Discussion

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Irish

Thane of Solitude

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Alex Jones, what a joke...

I admire Morgan's ability to resist the urge to punch that guy in the face. I'd have been hard pressed to resist it, myself.

See I'm like that with Piers I can't stand the bloke if there was a way to get him in a boxing ring I would beat the living plops out of him.
 

The Phantom

Consulting Criminal
Do you even realize how silly your argument is?

Here, allow me to help you think a bit: there are more than 80 million gun owners in the U.S.; Switzerland & Israel both have mandatory gun ownership & Israel at least has mandatory military service. I'll throw in a lot more later.

Just before I go for a few hours, here's more info:

You...... Just proved my point. You're simply helping my point so thank you. 80 Million people owning guns in a single country is ridiculous, especially optional. The mandatory gun ownership in the other countries still has thousands less deaths due to handguns. So what you are saying is that the American psyche cannot be trusted with gun ownership.
 

Omega Dragon

Active Member
You...... Just proved my point. You're simply helping my point so thank you. 80 Million people owning guns in a single country is ridiculous, especially optional. The mandatory gun ownership in the other countries still has thousands less deaths due to handguns. So what you are saying is that the American psyche cannot be trusted with gun ownership.


80 million gun owners that have not gone out of their way to kill a single person, that abide by the law in every reasonable way, you think proves your point that they cannot be trusted? Wow. Do you also have no problem distrusting people that break laws daily, that have no respect for human interaction & choices, that censor anything in the media, and that daily spy on their citizenry? Because hey, that's your government just as much as it is here.

But don't tell me, instead ask yourself why there hasn't been even 40 million murders in a single day within the U.S., or I'll make it easy: 8 hundred-thousand murders, as that number is just 1% of the amount of gun owners in the U.S., then get back to me.
 

The Phantom

Consulting Criminal
80 million gun owners that have not gone out of their way to kill a single person, that abide by the law in every reasonable way, you think proves your point that they cannot be trusted? Wow. Do you also have no problem distrusting people that break laws daily, that have no respect for human interaction & choices, that censor anything in the media, and that daily spy on their citizenry? Because hey, that's your government just as much as it is here.

But don't tell me, instead ask yourself why there hasn't been even 40 million murders in a single day within the U.S., or I'll make it easy: 8 hundred-thousand murders, as that number is just 1% of the amount of gun owners in the U.S., then get back to me.
I'm sorry there must have been a misunderstanding. I don't recall saying that those 80 million people were going to kill anyone. Just that there is a higher chance of a killing happening and that that many people owning a gun, an object with one purpose, is a bit much for a single country. Now I can see that the concepts of what I am saying are far from your level of comprehension and that you shall not be swayed from this (misguided) stance. If you claim that these people who own a gun are not bad people and will not use it to kill or hurt then you don't need the gun. And please don't claim that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. I say this because the logic is rather simple. If no one had guns, then you won't need to use them in that "righteous" context. I also know that you haven't said that (Something you seem to struggle with) but I can predict that may have been one of your theories/reasonings.
 

Omega Dragon

Active Member
I'm sorry there must have been a misunderstanding. I don't recall saying that those 80 million people were going to kill anyone. Just that there is a higher chance of a killing happening and that that many people owning a gun, an object with one purpose, is a bit much for a single country. Now I can see that the concepts of what I am saying are far from your level of comprehension and that you shall not be swayed from this (misguided) stance. If you claim that these people who own a gun are not bad people and will not use it to kill or hurt then you don't need the gun. And please don't claim that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. I say this because the logic is rather simple. If no one had guns, then you won't need to use them in that "righteous" context. I also know that you haven't said that (Something you seem to struggle with) but I can predict that may have been one of your theories/reasonings.

There is no misunderstanding, and don't try to troll me with your unintelligable "my concepts are far from your level of comprehension" crap; you trust that 80 million people will abide by a law putting their guns away, but you don't trust them to own a gun. It's really silly of you.

But hey, so let me get this straight. You also think the government has no need for guns? I mean, obviously, your government must be filled with good people that won't harm or hurt anyone, right?

I'll turn the tables around, had you watched the video you would've realized how easy it is to pick & choose your stats. All throughout the United States where guns are banned or regulated the hardest, crime rates are up through the roof. Detroit, Atlanta, Washington D.C. (before the SCOTUS ruling against the gun ban), Los Angeles, & even throughout New York. You name it. Well, I'll go with Atlanta since I was born in the neighboring city, Kennesaw.

During the 1970s, Atlanta was beginning to see increases in gang activity. The mayor of Atlanta brought in strong gun regulations. According to your logic, that should decrease crime rate. False, because of the mayor's actions, metro-Atlanta & particularly Macon is now one of the world's largest ghettos and likewise one of the single-most dangerous ghettos in the world, also home to America's biggest drug smuggling rings. During the 1980s, where I was born - Kennesaw - the mayor made gun ownership mandatory. Despite all the gang-related activity outside of Kennesaw, both it and gun-related activity dropped all throughout Kennesaw.

Then during the 1990s, my stepmom was almost raped. Almost? So what prevented it? She was armed & trained with at least a 9mm & various other guns. My ex-fiance, a British, was raped when she was 17. In Britain. It'd never have had happened if she owned a gun. Same true with any other woman, as a matter of fact.

But it's okay, so long as no one can get a gun and let's just stop manufacturing guns altogether? No, I have a better idea. Why don't you be an example instead of shoving your foolish choices upon other people? The way I see it, the lot of you should wear a sign that says "I am gun free and I think guns are wrong & cowardly." Think I'm joking or trolling? Not one bit, some gun owner out there inevitably is going to waste resources defending someone like the gun control nuts and you'll just scold them about how you were doing just fine without their assistance when it would otherwise be put to better use defending him or herself had said person known who hates guns.

Then on the other hand, even if you got rid of all the guns - you won't see a decrease in criminal activity. There are plenty of people twice my specs that have no problem killing. People that kill cops for sport, that'll do it even without guns.

Then, we still have your governments. The very institution that is the cause for the need of gun ownership to begin with.

 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
One of the best reads I've seen regarding the topic of gun control. It's lengthy, but informative.

America – Freedom vs Freedom | Eight Minutes of Fame

This actually ....... somewhat made me change my mind on the subject and only reinforced my support for a stricter process of gun ownership. Then again, I live in Canada where firearms aren't a problem in anyway. That being said, I agree with practically everything in this article (probably just disagree with how he words some things.) and its refreshing to actually see a gun-enthusiast not yelling out (or in this case, using caps :p) his/her opinion like its the only one around.

Still, I am glad I live in a country where crime is relatively low and I don't HAVE to see people carrying around guns in the open, no matter the reason, that would make me a little uneasy to say the least.

It doesn't change my opinion on the whole, "protect ourselves from the government" deal, though. I still think that's just paranoia talking. Call me naive, call me whatever you want but the reason why it was used in the 2nd Amendment was that a tyrannical government was a real possibility, as the country was still being born and anything could've happened. (I.E Britain) That doesn't mean I trust the Government with my life, I don't trust my own Government as far as I can throw them (to put that in perspective how can I throw an inanimate object :p) but in a democratic country such as the U.S or even Canada, I just don't see it possible happening and I certainly don't think that everyone owning a gun would prevent it, either.
 

Omega Dragon

Active Member
It doesn't change my opinion on the whole, "protect ourselves from the government" deal, though. I still think that's just paranoia talking. Call me naive, call me whatever you want but the reason why it was used in the 2nd Amendment was that a tyrannical government was a real possibility, as the country was still being born and anything could've happened. (I.E Britain) That doesn't mean I trust the Government with my life, I don't trust my own Government as far as I can throw them (to put that in perspective how can I throw an inanimate object :p) but in a democratic country such as the U.S or even Canada, I just don't see it possible happening and I certainly don't think that everyone owning a gun would prevent it, either.


No one, that I know of anyways, says that guns alone would prevent anything - it is not the gun that is focused upon. (After all, there is no country that isn't run by tyranny today.) What can prevent tyranny and would is an armed & vigilant populace. Armed both physically & mentally; vigilant by both spirit and flesh.
 

Irish

Thane of Solitude
Chicago, the poster child of cities with very strict gun control laws/policies, had over 500 gun-related homicides in 2012. Hmm.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
See I'm like that with Piers I can't stand the bloke if there was a way to get him in a boxing ring I would beat the living pl*** out of him.

Well, it just happens that everything that came out of Alex Jones' mouth during this "interview" (and that which would likely come out of his mouth usually) made me wanna rearrange his smug, hysterical face. So there's that. ;)
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Well, it just happens that everything that came out of Alex Jones' mouth during this "interview" made me wanna rearrange his smug, hysterical face. So there's that. ;)

Can't argue with that never heard of him before watching that vid both of em could do with a slap.
 

Soloquendi

Pastor of Muppets
The US is a schizophrenic society. Most other countries have singular cultures that never emphasized guns much anyways. It's a lot easier to go gun free for them. Our whole history is based on violent conquest and aggression. Violence as problem solver is ingrained into our psyche.

We have so much tension in this country right now. People are afraid of everything. Because the media, corporations and government keep everyone in a heightened state of fear, for the purpose of manipulating them. Right now one part of the populace is blaming the other for everything and vice a verse.

Add a history of racial subjugation and oppression to the mix and you've got quite a mess. Most of the people I know here in the Arkansas who have bought guns recently, say that it's because the "Darkies" are going to take over. Of course they use a different term than Darkie. ;)

So either we try to control access to guns or we can solve/reduce all the political, racial, and religious friction in the country. Gun control would be a lot easier.

The 2nd Amendment is outdated. It was written at a time when both civilians and soldiers had similar weaponry, muskets. However, they did not allow civilians to own cannons, so they must not have intended the term "Arms" to be a wide open category.
Otherwise we should be allowed to own tanks, helicopter gunships and cruise missiles.
 

nordicowboy

Must be my Nord blood......
544000_154741574674709_842408334_n.jpg

71 years ago, about 110,000 (70,000 of whom were US citizens) were sent to "war camps" because of government suspicion after the Pearl Harbor attack. THIS is why the 2nd Amendment is here. To keep Uncle Sam from penning people up like a feed lot at a slaughter house. I own semi-auto weapons with extended mags because the government has FULLY-auto weapons with extended mags, plus the artillery and other war novelties. Even if we keep what we have now, it's not a fair fight if some plops goes down.
 

Irish

Thane of Solitude
Saying that the Second Amendment is "outdated" seems like an uninformed accusation, in my opinion. The link below shows one possibility of what could happen if citizens are left vulnerable and without a way to defend themselves from either their own government, other governments, or groups of radicals. I'm certainly not a crazy government conspiracy theorist, but I'd rather have a small chance than no chance at protecting the ones I love and myself should something like that ever happen.

Gun Control and Genocide
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
What strikes me about this entire debate is how insanely black and white the issue itself is being presented and argued. I consider myself a centrist on many issues of the day. I was raised in a house in which there were guns. My father took me to a gun range several times and I enjoyed myself. As one of those folk (in before anyone says I don't "understand" or "appreciate" guns), I see just about no one speaking seriously (as in, with hopes of it actually being legislated) about "taking ALL the guns away". That to me, from my own perspective of listening to politicians and policy makers and activists on both sides talk about the subject, seems like sheer hyperbole. We're no more likely to outlaw ALL guns in this country than Mt. Rushmore is to secretly house the Eye of Sauron. And anyone who spoke such a thing would be someone I treated with a grain of salt of equal size, if that. It's part of the sensationalism inevitably tied to this whole debate. What I have heard most policy makers say is something to the effect of, "Let's make changes to the types of weapons available, close the gun show loophole, look for ways to be more proactive about mental health and take necessary precautions, etc." Soloquendi summed it up nicely.

That reeks of common sense to me. "OMG they're coming for ALL the guns, ALL MY guns!" need not be a part of the conversation. And the vast majority of gun owner friends I know aren't fearing for their rights to their weapons, and aren't buying what some lobbyists are trying to sell them. No one who I have heard who is to be taken seriously is talking about burning a hole in the Constitution where the Second Amendment is. There is great passion on both sides, but at the end of the day, a balanced approached is where it has to go. Spewing hysterical vitriol on either side gets us nowhere, as per usual. For the record, I see nothing wrong with having a handgun or two for self protection. Additionally, people who hunt should no doubt be entitled to their weapons. But there's a wide gulf between that and some of the things I've heard.
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
No one, that I know of anyways, says that guns alone would prevent anything - it is not the gun that is focused upon. (After all, there is no country that isn't run by tyranny today.) What can prevent tyranny and would is an armed & vigilant populace. Armed both physically & mentally; vigilant by both spirit and flesh.

I'll definitely agree that an educated populace is the way to prevent tyranny but as I said and as I've seen (such as in that article there and the lad who posted above me), people defend the 2nd Amendment on a basis that a tyrannical government is a possibility. That I will not agree with, and I'm on the fence about the whole thing in the first place. What the author of that article proposed is a great solution to the problem and I think it should be implemented immediately. Make the US harder to invade? Sure, it would be hard to invade a country where everyone owns a gun but in this day and age no one's going to think about a full-scale invasion on America.

So what I'm trying to say is that I agree with the article and agree with what he's proposed and the author has come closer than anyone else to convince me that the 2nd Amendment is a good idea, but not for some of the reasons stated. It's paranoia to think you need a gun to protect yourselves from your own government in a country such as America, imo. All you need is an educated population, as most, if not all, tyrants gain power by manipulation and making the population think that they are what is good. Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, you name it. Vigilant populace, yes, but an armed populace doesn't necessarily mean informed.

BUT, this is my own opinion and for god's sakes I'm Canadian. Only reason why we'd ever need a gun is there's a bear in my backyard. But we'll lure it away with maple syrup first, :p. If I was American, maybe I would have a different view because I may be just a bit bias on the issue because of the country I live in is not as crime-ridden as America is. I don't know about you, though, but if I walked into the mall and everyone was open-carrying a pistol, I just don't feel right about it.

Saying that the Second Amendment is "outdated" seems like an uninformed accusation, in my opinion. The link below shows one possibility of what could happen if citizens are left vulnerable and without a way to defend themselves from either their own government, other governments, or groups of radicals. I'm certainly not a crazy government conspiracy theorist, but I'd rather have a small chance than no chance at protecting the ones I love and myself should something like that ever happen.

Gun Control and Genocide

It is outdated, I think its too far to abolish the Second Amendment but it certainly needs to be refined. You're comparing America to countries who started with practically a tyrant in power, its incomparable really. Do you think that, right now, the American government could round up 2 million people and exterminate them like the countries listed were able to do? And you owning a gun would be able to prevent full on genocide by the military? The article you shared, I completely agree with how he proposed to solve the gun problem, for the reason of a tyrannical government? Not so much.


And the many countries with tighter gun control and less crime than America would also agree. But also again, all leaders of practically third-world countries. Its not hard to take over a country who's poor and fighting amongst themselves in the first place. Either that, or their country were under special circumstances that allowed them to take power, such as Hitler promising German people a better life after 2 decades of the world plopsting on Germany. Nothing of which can be compared to America or anytime in its history, really.
 

Omega Dragon

Active Member
What strikes me about this entire debate is how insanely black and white the issue itself is being presented and argued. I consider myself a centrist on many issues of the day. I was raised in a house in which there were guns. My father took me to a gun range several times and I enjoyed myself. As one of those folk (in before anyone says I don't "understand" or "appreciate" guns), I see just about no one speaking seriously (as in, with hopes of it actually being legislated) about "taking ALL the guns away". That to me, from my own perspective of listening to politicians and policy makers and activists on both sides talk about the subject, seems like sheer hyperbole. We're no more likely to outlaw ALL guns in this country than Mt. Rushmore is to secretly house the Eye of Sauron. And anyone who spoke such a thing would be someone I treated with a grain of salt of equal size, if that. It's part of the sensationalism inevitably tied to this whole debate. What I have heard most policy makers say is something to the effect of, "Let's make changes to the types of weapons available, close the gun show loophole, look for ways to be more proactive about mental health and take necessary precautions, etc." Soloquendi summed it up nicely.

That reeks of common sense to me. "OMG they're coming for ALL the guns, ALL MY guns!" need not be a part of the conversation. And the vast majority of gun owner friends I know aren't fearing for their rights to their weapons, and aren't buying what some lobbyists are trying to sell them. No one who I have heard who is to be taken seriously is talking about burning a hole in the Constitution where the Second Amendment is. There is great passion on both sides, but at the end of the day, a balanced approached is where it has to go. Spewing hysterical vitriol on either side gets us nowhere, as per usual. For the record, I see nothing wrong with having a handgun or two for self protection. Additionally, people who hunt should no doubt be entitled to their weapons. But there's a wide gulf between that and some of the things I've heard.

Well tell me, where is it going to stop if you ban assault weapons? Do you even know how to tell one apart by looking at it? Most assault weapon ban advocates have absofluffinglutely no clue the difference between an assault rifle and any other assault rifle, just they assume the assault rifle is always black & dangerous-looking. It's a known fact that the typical hunting rifle is a far more dangerous weapon than at least most assault rifles, yet people want to ban the assault rifle? For what? Because they look dangerous by people who have no real clue other than being told they're dangerous.

So it's of course going to bring you to ask why assault weapon ban matters so much, wherein I'm going to just tell you that you're missing the entire point, which is: where the hell is it going to stop? Once they ban assault weapons, you think they won't just continue with the momentum to get more weapons banned? Because again, not only is the assault rifle is fairly weak to begin with - and quite frankly, for amateurs at best - but government has never stopped on its own before.
 

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