Thoughts on the war?

[Dark Assassin]

So I've been pondering over this. And I kinda wanted to know your guys' thoughts on the war happening in skyrim. I think the imperials are doing the right thing. They held off the aldmeri dominion before. They can do it again. Maybe they are secretly building up the army to fight them of. Then the stormcloaks came along and ruined it. Maybe if both sides of the war team up and fight the aldmeri dominion together, they have a good chance of beating them. I mean, cmon, you have the dragonborn now. What else do you need??

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire has built up an army, but they're not doing it secretly.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

Empire and Dominion are heading towards round two of the Great War. The White-Gold Concordat is a pause, calm between storms, the next war will be the final war and will determine if the Empire or the Aldmeri Dominion survives.

 

[CaptMorgan72]

Of course the Empire is in the right. Ulfric is very short sighted, hes not seeing the bigger picture. He admits to that too in Sovngarde after death. Best thing you can do for the Stormcloaks is fight them and send them all to Sovngarde. They will thank you for it.

 

[Kalin of High Rock]

The Altmeri Dominion and The Empire are locked in an intense, high-stakes game of political chess. While The Empire is mulling over its next move, the Stormcloaks are standing over their shoulder shouting obscenities and threatening to flip over the board.

 

[ColleenG]

I suggest you play both sides several times. You learn a bit each time. I tend to like to play with the Imperials because the march on Windhelm is so much better than the march on Solitude. But last time I played Stormcloak, and I really got a good sense of the type of demagogue Ulfric is. He's an extremely charismatic psychopathic cult leader. His words are carefully chosen to make you feel as if you are a part of something extraordinary. This is his gift. Read this:

dem·a·gogue
ˈdeməˌgäg/
noun

1. a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
   synonyms: rabble-rouser, agitator, political agitator, soapbox orator, firebrand,fomenter, provocateur More
   • (in ancient Greece and Rome) a leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people.

One dictionary definition of charisma is "a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader or military commander); a special magnetic charm, or appeal." (5) Charisma was studied in depth by the German sociologist Max Weber, who defined it as "an exceptional quality in an individual who, through appearing to possess supernatural, providential or extraordinary powers, succeeds in gathering disciples around him."(6)
Weber's charismatic leader was "a sorcerer with an innovative aura and a personal magnetic gift, [who] promoted a specific doctrine....[and was] concerned with himself rather than involved with others....[He] held an exceptional type of power: it set aside the usage's of normal political life and assumed instead those of demagoguery, dictatorship, or revolution, [which induced] men's whole hearted devotion to the charismatic individual through a blind and fanatical trust and an unrestrained and uncritical faith."(7)

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I'll side with the Dominion. As humans are not native to the planet of Nirn, I'll stick with the indigenous peoples... wait... are the mer from somewhere else too?

 

[DestroyerDevourMaster]

There's not much more I can add to what's already been said. I definitely do agree that the Empire is in the right and is the only thing that can stop the Dominion from dominating Tamriel, the Stormcloaks may have some valid concerns but they're going about it at the wrong time in the wrong ways.

 

[tyrannocopters]

I think Ulfric doesn't realize the mutual relationship that Skyrim and Empire share. Those in Cyrodiil rest easy knowing that their northern border is guarded by the toughest sons of b.....s in Tamriel. And Skyrim grows rich off the trade the Empire brings. Ulfric is very arrogant, and mildly racist. The war is an useless waste of the resources that could be used to be preparing against the second fight with the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[ColleenG]

I think Ulfric doesn't realize the mutual relationship that Skyrim and Empire share. Those in Cyrodiil rest easy knowing that their northern border is guarded by the toughest sons of b.....s in Tamriel. And Skyrim grows rich off the trade the Empire brings. Ulfric is very arrogant, and mildly racist. The war is an useless waste of the resources that could be used to be preparing against the second fight with the Aldmeri Dominion.

Yeah, that's what Rikke told Ulfric right before he killed her.

 

[norsewarlord]

I tend to stay neutral and side with the Greybeards.

 

[ecozombie]

I'm really torn. With my first character I've stayed neutral, and with my other two I will be putting one on each side. But I have observed a few things about both sides, which I'll talk about here.
On my first character, while doing the Season Unending quest, I stumbled upon both sides doing something interesting. First before my character even came in to meet with General Tullius, she hid and listened to what they had to say while she was out of sight. General Tullius and Legate Rikke actually discuss drafting up a letter full of untruths about the Stormcloaks. If you do the same with Ulfric and his consultants, all you hear them speak of is the impending war and what moves to make. However Ulfric did do something quite interesting when my character told him she was from Helgen. He says, and yes I'm paraphrasing but it's still essentially the same, "I will forget about your crimes if you join us now and don't commit any crimes again." This may seem minor until you think about it, which I did, because something about it bugged me.. And then I realized. Ulfric is not high king just yet. In fact he was going to be executed at Helgen if Alduin hadn't come along. So how can he make this statement that he'll forgive my character when it isn't his place to do so? So I tend to agree with the above poster who said he may be a demagogue. That makes more sense to me than anything. So for right now, personally, I wouldn't join either side. They are both wrong in my opinion. However I will allot myself some time by saying I haven't played either side yet, and until I do I can't draw definite conclusions. These are just my thoughts this far.


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[Lewsean]

The Empire has built up an army, but they're not doing it secretly.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

Empire and Dominion are heading towards round two of the Great War. The White-Gold Concordat is a pause, calm between storms, the next war will be the final war and will determine if the Empire or the Aldmeri Dominion survives.

If they're ready to attack they wouldn't waste resources trying to stop a rebellion, they would tell Skyrim that they're going to attack. That in it's self tells me the Empire is still a long way off doing anything, after 30 years.

If you do the same with Ulfric and his consultants, all you hear them speak of is the impending war and what moves to make. However Ulfric did do something quite interesting when my character told him she was from Helgen. He says, and yes I'm paraphrasing but it's still essentially the same, "I will forget about your crimes if you join us now and don't commit any crimes again." This may seem minor until you think about it, which I did, because something about it bugged me.. And then I realized. Ulfric is not high king just yet. In fact he was going to be executed at Helgen if Alduin hadn't come along. So how can he make this statement that he'll forgive my character when it isn't his place to do so? So I tend to agree with the above poster who said he may be a demagogue.


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He's a Jarl of a hold, each hold governs it's self. If he says you're free in Windhelm or the other holds he controls, then you're free. He doesn't need to be High King for that, neither do any other Jarls.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If they're ready to attack they wouldn't waste resources trying to stop a rebellion, they would tell Skyrim that they're going to attack. That in it's self tells me the Empire is still a long way off doing anything, after 30 years.

They're not ready this instant. Why would you tell Skyrim you're going to attack, Skyrim itself isn't fighting the Empire. Do you mean tell the Stormcloaks that the Empire is going to attack the Aldmeri Dominion?

Besides the obvious fact the Stormcloaks are in arms against the Emperor and the Legion. The Empire 'wasting' resources trying to stop a rebellion tells me they're like any ruling body. Is it normal for Empires and Governments to not spend resources trying to end rebellions that are against them? The Legion considers the Stormcloaks to be a threat to the Empire, that Ulfric is a thug and power hungry usurper.

If the Nords supporting Ulfric couldn't figure it out from all the standard Legions in High Rock and Skyrim (and the Legions of Cyrodiil) marching south to the Dominion's border in recent years. Nearly the entire Imperial army sitting on the Thalmor's doorstep? Clear sign of aggression.

If someone places nearly their entire army on your border, how would you translate that action?

Also the Legion actually makes many remarks towards fighting the Aldmeri Dominion.

"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Legate Rikke

"The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?" - General Tullius

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

Then you also have the comments from every Legion Legate that make mention to something along the lines of "Skyrim's days are darkening, soon the Legion will be called into service like never before"

Though of course one can ignore all that and pretend the Empire and Thalmor are best friends. You don't need to even look that hard to find mentions of another war coming. It isn't like the Empire keeps it a huge secret, the Thalmor themselves even make mentions to it.

 

[Lewsean]

If they're ready to attack they wouldn't waste resources trying to stop a rebellion, they would tell Skyrim that they're going to attack. That in it's self tells me the Empire is still a long way off doing anything, after 30 years.

They're not ready this instant. Why would you tell Skyrim you're going to attack, Skyrim itself isn't fighting the Empire. Do you mean tell the Stormcloaks that the Empire is going to attack the Aldmeri Dominion?

Besides the obvious fact the Stormcloaks are in arms against the Emperor and the Legion. The Empire 'wasting' resources trying to stop a rebellion tells me they're like any ruling body. Is it normal for Empires and Governments to not spend resources trying to end rebellions that are against them? The Legion considers the Stormcloaks to be a threat to the Empire, that Ulfric is a thug and power hungry usurper.

If the Nords supporting Ulfric couldn't figure it out from all the standard Legions in High Rock and Skyrim (and the Legions of Cyrodiil) marching south to the Dominion's border in recent years. Nearly the entire Imperial army sitting on the Thalmor's doorstep? Clear sign of aggression.

If someone places nearly their entire army on your border, how would you translate that action? "Just going out for a stroll"

Also the Legion actually makes many remarks towards fighting the Aldmeri Dominion.

"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Legate Rikke

"The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?" - General Tullius

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius

Then you also have the comments from every Legion Legate that make mention to something along the lines of "Skyrim's days are darkening, soon the Legion will be called into service like never before"

Though of course one can ignore all that and pretend the Empire and Thalmor are best friends. You don't need to even look that hard to find mentions of another war coming. It isn't like the Empire keeps it a huge secret, the Thalmor themselves even make mentions to it.

Except this rebellion is a direct result of there own actions, and if those actions are a means to an end then they should inform Ulfric of the situation rather than let countless Nords die until the time is right. Killing your own soldiers/ex-soldiers is hardly a smart move when you're trying to arm up against a supposedly superior force.

Also if you think the Nords of Skyrim should know that the Empire is readying for an attack, that obviously means the Thalmor know about it, so why on earth do the Empire insist on enforcing the treaty and killing it's own people?

I get tired of hearing pro-empire supporters bang on about how it's the rebels fault and they need to stay with the Empire to fight the Elves, whereas the Empire is more than happy to sell out any province at the command of the Thalmor. It's more of the Empire NEEDING the other provinces than the other way around.


"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar - Empire sold out Hammerfell, that's far from standing together..

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke - If the Empire couldn't do anything to stop the Thalmor before the treaty was signed, they have no hope now it's betrayed half it's people.

"The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?" - General Tullius - Decides to come clean about a future attack on the Thalmor, after slaughtering hundreds of Nords who wanted to do the exact same thing.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - General Tullius - How does the Empire expect to defeat the Thalmor when it only has enough troops to guard the border of one province?

I don't for one second beleive the Thalmor and the Emperor are best friends, but the way he decides to deal with this situation is foolish. One idea off the top of my head would probably work better. Inform Ulfric of the plan of attack, get him on side, pull out of Skyrim in a way that makes it look like Ulfric has won and seceded from the Empire, fortify Cyrodill for the upcoming fight, then use the Nords of skyrim as a guerrilla force to launch surprise attacks on the Thalmor who will think they're only fighting the Legion.

 

[ecozombie]

Lewsean, that's possible that that is what he meant. However if it is, then why didn't he specify that it was only within his hold? This is what I mean about perhaps he is a person who essentially tells you what you want to hear to make you feel special, i.e. a demagogue. For that matter it had occurred to me he also meant it as "you're free when I become High King". But the fact remains he didn't specify either of those things, and so personally that just bugs me. As I said though, I'm still willing to give each side a chance; until I play through the quests I can't reach a definite conclusion. What I posted were just things I'd observed thus far that bugged me. :/


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[Lewsean]

Lewsean, that's possible that that is what he meant. However if it is, then why didn't he specify that it was only within his hold? This is what I mean about perhaps he is a person who essentially tells you what you want to hear to make you feel special, i.e. a demagogue. For that matter it had occurred to me he also meant it as "you're free when I become High King". But the fact remains he didn't specify either of those things, and so personally that just bugs me. As I said though, I'm still willing to give each side a chance; until I play through the quests I can't reach a definite conclusion. What I posted were just things I'd observed thus far that bugged me. :/


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This is why I think Bethesda do a great job in making it hard to decide, everything is totally down to your own perception. No choice is good or bad, they both have questionable issues and it's down to you as a person to decide how to act on it. For example I think the Empire is probably the safest choice, there decision to sign the treaty perhaps saved men, but at the same time I believe the Stormcloak's is the correct choice in the sense that most of them just want to be able to live how they like, and that is a cause I deeply support.

 

[ecozombie]

Exactly. I totally agree with you on both counts. However there are bad sides to both the Stormcloaks and the Empire as well. Which does definitely make it harder to decide which, if any, side to join. Bethesda did do a great job with how they designed the whole thing.


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[Lewsean]

Exactly. I totally agree with you on both counts. However there are bad sides to both the Stormcloaks and the Empire as well. Which does definitely make it harder to decide which, if any, side to join. Bethesda did do a great job with how they designed the whole thing.


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They sure did, I just hope the choice to support either side is expanded on in the next release of a TES game. I would hate for all the thinking that has gone into these type of debates to go to waste in another 'It happened so long ago it doesn't matter' explanation.

 

[ecozombie]

Yeah, that'd be nice.


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[DrunkenMage]

Except this rebellion is a direct result of there own actions, and if those actions are a means to an end then they should inform Ulfric of the situation rather than let countless Nords die until the time is right. Killing your own soldiers/ex-soldiers is hardly a smart move when you're trying to arm up against a supposedly superior force.

Why should they inform Ulfric Stormcloak? He killed the High King, that makes him a criminal. He's started some holy war against the Western Holds. But the Empire should inform Ulfric, they should plead with Ulfric, should make deals with Ulfric? Why?

Also if you think the Nords of Skyrim should know that the Empire is readying for an attack, that obviously means the Thalmor know about it, so why on earth do the Empire insist on enforcing the treaty and killing it's own people?

Because the Thalmor know the Empire can't attack this instant, which is why they decided to stir things up no doubt. Also the Empire enforcing the treaty and killing it's own people? Show me one instance where the Imperials enforce the treaty and kill someone for it. The Imperials just arrest you, and keep you from the Thalmor.

I get tired of hearing pro-empire supporters bang on about how it's the rebels fault and they need to stay with the Empire to fight the Elves, whereas the Empire is more than happy to sell out any province at the command of the Thalmor. It's more of the Empire NEEDING the other provinces than the other way around.

Generally an Empire does include more than one province. How is the Empire "more than happy" to sell out any province at the command of the Thalmor? It actually took five years of war and the near destruction of the entire Empire to just get the Imperials to agree to a ban that was poorly enforced.

If you're talking about Hammerfell, the Redguards refused the White-Gold Concordat as was their right. But they wouldn't have been able to create a treaty with the Thalmor if it wasn't for the Legion's actions.

I don't for one second beleive the Thalmor and the Emperor are best friends, but the way he decides to deal with this situation is foolish. One idea off the top of my head would probably work better. Inform Ulfric of the plan of attack, get him on side, pull out of Skyrim in a way that makes it look like Ulfric has won and seceded from the Empire, fortify Cyrodill for the upcoming fight, then use the Nords of skyrim as a guerrilla force to launch surprise attacks on the Thalmor who will think they're only fighting the Legion.

So the Empire should leave Skyrim. Hand it over to Ulfric, whom doesn't even have majority support in the land. So leave all the countless thousands of those loyal to the Empire at his mercy, and make a little deal with him that "makes it look like he won"?

Firstly, Ulfric won't ever do such a thing. Not only would it be against everything he stands for, he would never make peace with the Empire.

Secondly, majority of Ulfric's support come from anti-Empire fanatics, religious zealots and such. Do you honestly believe they'd back Ulfric Stormcloak if he made a deal with the Emperor to become High King?

Thirdly, why does the Empire have to be the ones who need to leave and please Ulfric and supporters? It isn't my side who is doing slavery and racial segregation.

Now onto your point about Nords doing surprise attacks against the Aldmeri Dominion. How would they be surprise? The Thalmor have eyes everywhere.