The politics of Skyrim (as seen by a newcomer) - please debate!

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I'm increasingly aware that the Stormcloarks are merely a less intelligent variant on the Thalmor - or more accurately, a less calculating and premeditated group. Obviously they don't possess the all consuming thirst for domination that the Thalmor do, but within the microcosm of Skyrim, they do possess some of those traits. I was always convinced that the Stormcloaks had a point and believed that a maligned culture wronged by a large Empire were surely in possession of the moral high ground. That's what happens when you have a Catholic grandmother who lived in East Belfast...but I digress.

After playing through as a blood and thunder Nord who wore all the bearskin, swung a giant war hammer and swore to the preservation of Skyrim, I began reading a lot more into the lore of TES - something I had been ignorant of in coming to this game very late. Lore is something that I value highly and as I role play my characters, it is important in defining who I will become in Tamriel. If you search for my previous thread entitled, "Your defining moment" you will see the motivation behind my initial choices and I still stick by them. I love Nordic culture and I will always feel a close attachment to it; it is something that defines me and provides me with a great deal of pride...but I'm not to the point of blind jingoism and this is where Ulfric lost me.

The hubris of the man is ridiculous and there is no greater evidence of that than during the Hrothgar Council Negotiations between him and the Empire. He comes across as a rather petulant and arrogant man. However, drawing upon my own experiences of that and knowing how my grandmother felt as a Catholic in East Belfast, I had been guilty - upon reflection - of such hubris and petulance. In the face of such overwhelming opposition you become arrogant, aggressive and tribal. So, indeed, was I not only guilty of possessing all of the traits that encompass Ulfric, but worse still, unable to examine them personally and so guilty of ignorance, pride and hypocrisy? This got me thinking and midway through my first build with my hulking Nord, I began to have an actual crisis of political, cultural and spiritual faith!

If I was going to role play this character, surely I would need to make decisions and see scenarios as I would do so?

This became a further "defining moment" for me and I realised that if I wanted to preserve Tamriel against the onslaught of the Thalmor (whom I detest) then a united Tamriel would be only way to achieve that. It might not speak to my Nordic roots or stir a wanton pride in my breast, but if Ulfric was prepared to rock the boat at such an awkward time in diplomatic relations, perhaps he didn't have the honour I had initially invested in him. If he was going to kill the sons and daughters of Skyrim to take control then perhaps he wasn't a forward thinking man. If he wasn't prepared to swallow his pride and take the fight to the Thalmor with greater odds and a united Tamriel, perhaps I shouldn't follow him...

The Thalmor are much more cunning and conniving than that. Their hubris is phenomenal - even compared to Ulfric - and it is their obsequious and generally condescending tone that really provokes my hatred of them. Their desire to eradicate individualism and cultural variety from Tamriel is something far sinister than what Ulfric had planned. It is almost akin to ethnic cleansing and needs to be stopped. They are the greater of evils in this world in my opinion and so they must be the focus. Only the Empire has a chance of defeating them...or as my new project may suggest, maybe a Dwemer will hold the key!

As you can tell, I'm researching into the lore and forming my opinions of this wonderful world more and more by the hour. If you want to add to the conversation and attempt to sway me, educate me, correct me or back me up please feel free to do so as I have an amazing time in this community so far and this thrust for deeper knowledge is partially down to you guys!

 

[Cloud Surf]

I don't know if this is off topic or not, but I am faced with a crippling dilemma in my adventures.
I keep having this feeling of the end of something big. I hear the old rebel mantra echoing in my ears..." All Empires must fall eventually. Must."

So I figure to myself that I ought to join the rebellion. The problem with that is that the arguments and logic backing support of the Empire make so much sense. Yes, a united land and empire would seemingly be more sound. Yes, Ulfric is a fool and an arrogant racist who thinks he is some kind of plops and uses the hate and fear of his people as a means to his own selfish end.

I think in the context of TES 5: Skyrim, so far at least, the wise choice is obvious.
But I have just about had it with this empire. Because not all of what Ulfric speaks of is lies, and you must do away with the old to make way for the new...

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I honestly believe that you are trapped between a rock and a hard place...it's such a big decision to make. It sounds ridiculous when considering this is a video game, but you honestly become that emotionally invested.

 

[Cloud Surf]

Indeed. Damn games anyway

 

[Docta Corvina]

Awesome post! As most people around here probably have noticed, I adore debating Skyrim politics for hours on end. Really, months on end, by now. It's all terribly fascinating to me, especially given so many intriguing and complex characters involved. The circumstances are thrilling and tragic, and that is all part of what keeps me so captivated by it.

I had been playing for the Legion every time since the start, until I very recently started a Stormcloak run-through out of curiosity. Though I favored the Imperials in the beginning for perhaps superficial reasons, as I started engaging the lore and the broader contexts of the ES universe, the more vindicated I felt with respect to my decision and allegiance. I too began to see more clearly the political realities in tandem with the historical ones and playing to effectively support the Empire as a bulwark against proxy warfare and cold war style attempts at subversion on the part of the Thalmor was something that just made good sense to me. Aiding the rebellion and helping a faction that appeared so inwardly focused and a broader detriment to the stability of Tamriel has been something I cannot bring myself to support on a philosophical level - even though I have been getting the experience of their side, for my own intellectual benefit. As the adage goes, it seems to me like the Stormcloaks are cutting off their collective nose to spite their collective face.

I also had been wary of Ulfric since first playing. I still remain so, though I do find him fascinating as a character because of his complexity. He was cast as a highly problematic leader for a cause that at its most fundamental level may appear a "just" or somewhat sympathetic one. But the implications of his actions as well as his own idiosyncrasies emerge as quite negative to myself and many others. To me, he appears every bit of a practiced as well as naturally talented politician, in addition to his qualities as a warrior. He is shrewd and calculating - things that are not even merely observable through his actions, but even made obvious by way of his own admission.

Bethesda could have presented a mostly blemish-free, overwhelmingly supported character in the figure of Ulfric. That is, if they wished to make the "choice" and the civil war a rather flat element of the gameplay and player engagement. It's clear to me that in Ulfric, they have represented all of the bad that comes with the good that many in Skyrim saw in a direct challenge to the Empire. Without bringing to the surface too much content from other threads, it's clear that Windhelm stands as an example of a unique reality in Skyrim, and his leadership of it should not be discounted or given up to mere coincidence. There is significance.

All in all, there is a reason why the Thalmor indicated very plainly that they foremost desired a long, exhaustive civil war, and that an Imperial victory would harm their overall position in Skyrim.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

It is so indicative of the depth and richness of this game and the lore that exists alongside it that both sides of the struggle encompass both nobility and hubris in equal measure. It really makes you consider the choice that you make and presents a game world enveloped in the complex and interwoven intricacies of political, cultural and social history.

Borne out in this is the understanding that Ulfric is immensely divisive in the perceptions that people have developed about him - both in real life and Skyrim. He has the potential to provoke devotion and derision. But within that, and most beautifully crafted by Bethesda, is the enthralling personal reflection that a gamer must go through to pick their side. Tamriel isn't black and white. There isn't a dichotomous contrast between black and white, but instead it is enveloped in grey areas, subtleties and inferences. Whomever you support, with it will come regrets, pride, reflection and struggle.

That is what makes this wonderful world so beautifully believable and terrifyingly deep.

 

[Psiberzerker]

{Pops some corn, and lurks...}

 

[Shadow King]

i just hate the altmer i really do and its not blind hatred with no thinking behind it i have reasons which i wont get into on this debate as not to sidetrack ure post. u are right about there condescending tone from the radiant rainment sisters to the kiss ass in the colege of winterhold they all crave to be better than anyone else altmers so they can look down at people and they are just the citezens i have mentiond. but what about thalmor i think they are evil liers who are trying to play with puppets behind the scenes. they lie about oblivion gates they lie about bringing moons back. i dont think there as strong as they appear to be. the elves (not all elves but most) are a curse upon tamriel and they destroy peace. the politics of them stopping talos worship is only one reason he is a man not an elve and they hate it (oops of topic a little soz)

 

[Psiberzerker]

Ok, the Thalmor are not the Altmer, they're the Aldemeri Dominion's Gestappo. That kind of mistake is where Racism starts.

 

[Shadow King]

yes and the irony of ulfric is he supposidly loves the sons and daughters of skyrim if he really loved them he would not send them to war. he is power hungry and i used to like him aswell. the thalmor banned talos worship ulfric sent men and women to die against the empire (they should have attacked summerset isles) but he didnt attack there because he wanted the empire out and skyrim to be his. the greedy bastard.

sorry about the grammer

 

[Shadow King]

Ok, the Thalmor are not the Altmer, they're the Aldemeri Dominion's Gestappo. That kind of mistake is where Racism starts.

the thalmor are the altmer. and i agree the thalmor are gestappo.

 

[Psiberzerker]

All Thalmor are Altmer, not all Altmer are Thalmor.

I am not rejoining that argument. It's painfully obvious that nothing I can say will convince anyone otherwise, so go back to your regularly scheduled hate filled Rant. You know, they're not real, don't you? Maybe you should go outside, talk to someone face to face without judging them first, just for a change. That might help calm you down.

 

[Harc]

This post reveals truth and many other things. I always played on the empires side, but i would wear thalmor mage stuff and pretend I was a Joint force unit commander, and when I killed Ulfric, I didnt use a sword, or any weapon, I used a thunderbolt

 

[Shadow King]

All Thalmor are Altmer, not all Altmer are Thalmor.

I am not rejoining that argument. It's painfully obvious that nothing I can say will convince anyone otherwise, so go back to your regularly scheduled hate filled Rant. You know, they're not real, don't you? Maybe you should go outside, talk to someone face to face without judging them first, just for a change. That might help calm you down.

judging who. what the hell are you talking about. u need to lay of that crack pipe mate. yes i know they are not real do you. we are talking about skyrim not the real world.

 

[Psiberzerker]

The real confusing one to me are the Imperials. There's Imperial (the Race) and the Cyrodiilic Empire (Not all are racial Imperials) There is a lot of overlap, to be sure, but that doesn't cause me to believe that all Imperials are with the Empire.

 

[Psiberzerker]

{Goes back to lurking,} munch munch munch...

 

[Harc]

judging who. what the hell are you talking about. u need to lay of that crack pipe mate. yes i know they are not real do you. we are talking about skyrim not the real world.

Well, you seem to think all Altmer are supporters of the Aldmeri Dominion. Thats like me going around and killing every nord because I think they are all stormcloaks.

 

[Shadow King]

Well, you seem to think all Altmer are supporters of the Aldmeri Dominion. Thats like me going around and killing every nord because I think they are all stormcloaks.

who knows who are there supporters the only one altmer i know to be a definite non supporter is that legionaire in riften.

 

[Harc]

who knows who are there supporters the only one altmer i know to be a definite non supporter is that legionaire in riften.

He is probably a thalmor advisor to the Imperial legion. Given the rank legate because he cant advise Tullius as a Questor or something

 

[Shadow King]

He is probably a thalmor advisor to the Imperial legion. Given the rank legate because he cant advise Tullius as a Questor or something

i knew you where going to say that, maybe he is but he seems a legit character the best altmer ive ever seen in the game lol.