Spoiler Should Guilds be inherently Good / Evil ?

[feliciano182]

So, before I joined The Dark Brotherhood and played their questline, I was quite startled about how............evil the guys were.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think the DB's questline is one of the best in the game, but I was wondering if it was good or bad in a game if a joinable faction was inherently good or evil in an RPG ?
For my part, it's a little silly to pretend a cadre of assasins should be good, the business of killing is a seriously inmoral trade, and it's certainly going to be filled with rather unpleasent people, same for the Thieves Guild, which also incurr in some rather ugly activities, their very first quest pretty much tells you that to join the faction you HAVE to get your hands dirty.
However, I think it becomes a little difficult to role-play if you are forced to do things that fall outside the moral boundaries of the character you've created, in that sense, should the game offer viable options to avoid going out of character or should it stick to a particular moral "palette" ?
What do you guys think ? Should guilds lack morality or be distinguishably good or evil ?

 

[Moris]

Well, it was kinda nice that you could complete the TG questline in Oblivion and still be sure you were doing the honorable thing.

But it's a relief, too, that thieves in Skyrim are of a completely different color. They're thieves, after all.

I think it's good that you can't really join all factions while still roleplaying reasonably, but have to make choices regarding your character's beliefs and values.

I don't like the fact that access to certain word walls require at least partial completion of some factions, or that you MUST join the College of Winterhold in order to complete the main quest. But as for having to balance your character's moral values against the potential benefits of faction membership -- that I like.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Actually, something I found interesting about the Thieves Guild was that despite what it seemed like, I could botch the first mission (against Brand-Shei) and Brynjolf would still invite me in. That's what I did the second time through and though momentarily miffed, he took a breath and basically said, "Eh, it's probably just this run of bad luck we've been having anyway, whatever". And still recruited me. It's like he saw that I wasn't willing or able to screw over Brand-Shei, but saw potential in me and pursued it anyway.

It's interesting to me mostly because unless I'm overlooking something, it's the only situation in which you can outright fail an introductory quest for a main faction that by all accounts embodies the faction itself - and still be allowed entry. You have to kill to gain admittance to the Brotherhood (obviously), you have to engage the quests that the Winterhold mages give you, and you have to prove yourself for the Companions. With the Thieves Guild - or at least with Brynjolf, it's different. I'd have a hard time seeing Mercer allow me in after botching the Brand-Shei job, gotta say. But keeping all of that in mind, it has some interesting implications for the so-called "morality" of the Guild, as a faction. It actually seems less straightforward than first glance would tell.

 

[Pete]

I've noticed that every guild / group has a deity associated with it.

Something like...

• Companions - Hercine / Ysmir
• DB - Sithis,
• Theives - Noctural
• Stormcloacks - Talos
• Empire - Atatosh
• Vampires - Molag Bal
• Dawnguard - Stendar
• Mages - Magus
• Necromacers - Ideal Masters

So the morality of each guild fits in line with its patron deity - at least that's how I play em. Its always those lone deadriatic quests that trip up my characters morality.

 

[Moris]

Actually, something I found interesting about the Thieves Guild was that despite what it seemed like, I could botch the first mission (against Brand-Shei) and Brynjolf would still invite me in. That's what I did the second time through and though momentarily miffed, he took a breath and basically said, "Eh, it's probably just this run of bad luck we've been having anyway, whatever". And still recruited me. It's like he saw that I wasn't willing or able to screw over Brand-Shei, but saw potential in me and pursued it anyway.

It's interesting to me mostly because unless I'm overlooking something, it's the only situation in which you can fail an introductory quest for a main faction that by all accounts embodies the faction itself - and still be allowed entry. You have to kill to gain admittance to the Brotherhood (obviously), you have to engage the quests that the Winterhold mages give you, and you have to prove yourself for the Companions. With the Thieves Guild - or at least with Brynjolf, it's different. I'd have a hard time seeing Mercer allow me in after botching the Brand-Shei job, gotta say. But keeping all of that in mind, it has some interesting implications for the so-called "morality" of the Guild, as a faction. It actually seems less straightforward than first glance would tell.

Well, you can botch the Brand-Shei job, true. I take this as a sign of desperation on Brynjolf's part. But you won't go any further unless you're willing to intimidate 3 more Riften citizens. If I'm playing a good gal, I have real trouble talking to Keerava and suggesting that I might harm her family; and I'm usually quite fond of Bersi, since he's one of the few people who seems to genuinely care about the poverty in Riften.

So I still have to lower my moral standards and do something I find distasteful if I want to join. My good characters just won't do it. No shades of grey here. To me it is straightforward.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well, you can botch the Brand-Shei job, true. But you won't go any further unless you're willing to intimidate 3 more Riften citizens. If I'm playing a good gal, I have real trouble talking to Keerava and suggesting that I might harm her family; and I'm usually quite fond of Bersi, since he's one of the few people who seems to genuinely care about the poverty in Riften.

So I still have to lower my moral standards and do something I find distasteful if I want to join. My good characters just won't do it.

That's certainly true, about the intimidation. I suppose it never bothered me that much because I rather despise Keerava and Haelga. I hate their personalities and attitudes, so it didn't trouble me at all. This is, of course, the person who likes to raise hell in the Bee and Barb and the Bunkhouse by ruthlessly slaying their respective owners for being highly annoying.

The only one I do feel bad about is Bersi, but I always make up for it by patronizing his shop and leaving him lots of gold. I always invest with him as well. I've left gold in the chests of a few people in Riften, including the orphans. But then, I play a Robin Hood-esque thief.

 

[Moris]

Well, Haelga... Yeah, I don't feel all that bad about threatening her statue of Dibella, though I usually get more pleasure out of brawling her.

If it were possible just to make Bersi's (and Keerava's) payment out of my own pocket... THAT would make me think differently about the whole questline.

 

[Hildolfr]

I think it's good that if you're RPing a character, you can't just go around joining everything. I mean, the Dark Brotherhood should probably be evil. The Companions, when you think about it, kind of skirt the line between hired thugs and heroic champions. Though I've been forced to join the College every playthrough, I have never completed the storyline, so I don't know about that.

The Thieves Guild is an interesting one, though. I always seemed like they were so pretty awful people, BUT how much of that is attributed to the pitiful condition it's in? I kind of feel like desperate people do desperate things. Whenever I RP through the Thives Guild, my character insists that once he climbs higher up the ranks, he's going to do something to make the Thieves Guild more noble...more respectable. So, sure, they may compromise my morals early on, but once I take over, we do things my way. The Black-Briars are going to be generously "donating" their coin to the poor of Skyrim!

All that being said, I feel like Skyrim favors the evil character or the morally ambiguous ones. It's hard to be a true hero and experience a majority of the game.

 

[Argonianale7]

Generally I have no morals in the game, I can be shooting an Elk in the face with a lighting spell one minute and evilly laughing, and killing an entire bandit camp the next cuz they killed a fox... although I would like more options for guilds to suit your characters personality. I'm still sad about fluffy the fox and his untimely death

 

[Moris]

All that being said, I feel like Skyrim favors the evil character or the morally ambiguous ones. It's hard to be a true hero and experience a majority of the game.

I agree. And few of my characters even try to be wholly "good". Most are pretty darned bloodthirsty. The most consistent one operates on a system of honor. She will kill in a heartbeat, and sometimes even quite impulsively (because she was insulted or someone she likes was insulted, for instance), but she will not betray those she considers friends and she will not go back on her word. She gives me a chance to play a character with a clear moral framework who nevertheless has the opportunity to experience most of the game. It's also reasonable for a character to make terrible mistakes or do things that she later regrets, and perhaps regrets even deeply enough to change her path completely.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Uh, they're assassins. Not generally a socially acceptable career choice. So naturally, they're considered something less than good for profiting from Murder.

 

[TomatoThief]

So, before I joined The Dark Brotherhood and played their questline, I was quite startled about how............evil the guys were.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think the DB's questline is one of the best in the game, but I was wondering if it was good or bad in a game if a joinable faction was inherently good or evil in an RPG ?
For my part, it's a little silly to pretend a cadre of assasins should be good, the business of killing is a seriously inmoral trade, and it's certainly going to be filled with rather unpleasent people, same for the Thieves Guild, which also incurr in some rather ugly activities, their very first quest pretty much tells you that to join the faction you HAVE to get your hands dirty.
However, I think it becomes a little difficult to role-play if you are forced to do things that fall outside the moral boundaries of the character you've created, in that sense, should the game offer viable options to avoid going out of character or should it stick to a particular moral "palette" ?
What do you guys think ? Should guilds lack morality or be distinguishably good or evil ?

To your question: Morality should exist within a guild, but the guild should not be beholden to it.

In my Perfect World™, each guild would begin with a tendency toward one polar extreme, which we will call (for convenience) good and evil. This morality will manifest itself differently in each guild, but will loosely follow the idea of selfish disregard for others vs benevolent acts of altruism.

For the Dark Brotherhood, this is difficult. Within the Morag Tong of Morrowind, there is great room for operating within or outside of the law. Executions were legally sanctioned and moral. This may be counter to your experiences in real life, but so are Silt Striders. Unfortunately the Dark Brotherhood are outside of the law, and follow a deity presumed to be wholly malicious, although they more directly follow the Night Mother. There is little room for morality because the Night Mother is indiscriminate in the selection of contracts. You perform the ritual, you pay, your target dies. There is no room for selective righteous elimination. From my understanding of lore, I believe there is room for the Night Mother to represent the darkest side of Sithis, with a more lawful or just arena of murder existing with Sithis if the Night Mother is bypassed. This is a stretch, since Sithis is associated with chaos. However, the player could still find themselves working for a just aspect of Sithis in an attempt to balance the pure malevolence of the Night Mother. Thus the good/evil choice.

The Mages Guild (or College) is the simplest demonstration of selfishness vs selflessness. You are either consumed with the pursuit of power for power's sake with no regard for the weak, or you pursue power as a means to resolve conflict within the world.

I believe the Companions beautifully represented an inner conflict in Skyrim, although I wish there were more options for the non-werewolf. Giving into Hircine and becoming a werewolf represents a choice in which you are not compelled to be evil per se, but doing so demonstrates a focused lack of regard for anything beyond physical strength, the pack, and the hunt. The counter here is already represented as the curing of the werewolf "curse" and a return to lawful public contracts.

The thieves guild has room to range from cutthroat ruffians, a TES version of gangs offering their "protection", to a cadre of fun loving bards and swashbucklers who "bend" the rules of morality and the law. The guild in Oblivion was certainly less malicious than in Skyrim, although I agree with a previous poster that this could be attributed to the guild falling on hard times, thus being forced to be a little more cruel in their dealings. Again, this is an excellent arena for inner conflict. Bring prosperity back to the guild, kick out your Dirges and your Mercer Freys, get up out of the sewers, and see a return to an organization which is just as influential, but less brutal.

So, each guild should start at one end of this morality scale. Through your direct actions, you should be able to push the guild's direction to either end according to your agenda. I will add that while the Mages and Fighters guilds are clearly lawful establishment with varying levels of morality, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves guild, no matter where they reside on the moral spectrum, are unlawful and the player should have the means to combat or disable them. Again, in my Perfect World™ this would have real world effects that benefit and/or hinder the player. For example, thwarting the Thieves Guild should yield lower prices in all shops as global prosperity rises. Other effects could be discussed at length in their own thread. I will also add that eradication of a guild should always be temporary, with new "safe houses" cropping up after so many game days in radiant unoccupied houses or caves/forts.

Sorry to be so winded, but I'm at work and I really don't want to be doing what I should be.

-TT

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Maybe it might be an area to develop as to the "influence" your character has upon the moral, social and political spectrum of a certain guild or faction. The greater their reputation (both within the wider world of Tamriel and more especially within the particular guild) the greater their scope of influence is upon the other members, and additionally the overall mindset and focus of the group.

If you are a veritable behemoth of influence, your acceptance or refusal to partake in certain tasks, quests and dialogue streams might determine the overall group mentality quite significantly - steering the aspirations of the group towards your manner of thinking. The higher up in the hierarchy, the greater the influence - until, as faction leader, your word is gospel.

If your influence is little, you may be paid little attention, be openly derided by the wider group, plotted against (and thus made a scapegoat when the proverbial hits the fan) or simply thrown out on your ear should your words of dissent rankle with the higher echelons!

In this regard, the plotlines of the wider quests and story arcs could be drawn together and dovetail more readily. Supposing that you become a senior figure in the Dark Brotherhood, but otherwise support the Empire in the Civil War. You may be given the option (thus exerting your hard earned influence) to have your fellow assassins support you in a daring raid against a Stormcloak encampment.

 

[Moris]

In Skyrim, we yearn for our actions to make a difference. We want respect. We want our choices to have meaning. We want to influence the factions we join.

If I could name a single weakness in the game that I'd like Bethesda to address, it's this.

But, man, I expect it'd be a bitch to code.

 

[TomatoThief]

In Skyrim, we yearn for our actions to make a difference. We want respect. We want our choices to have meaning. We want to influence the factions we join.

If I could name a single weakness in the game that I'd like Bethesda to address, it's this.

But, man, I expect it'd be a bitch to code.

While mechanical changes to the game are highly desirable, I find most people are complaining about the lack of aesthetic respect shown by NPCs. The only thing limiting about NPC's showing the proper respect is the amount of additional voice acting required. I could hire an English Major intern at $8.00/hr to sit at a computer and bang out some awesome dialog for every NPC, for every reputation value, in the game. You saw a better representation of this in Morrowind, because there was very little voice acting. Almost all text. But the text was compelling enough that you *wanted* to read it. The hidden advantage of text is that it can be fixed by anybody. Try getting Patrick Stewart to sign a 3-year deal where he's on call to re-voice his characters every time dialog is hotfixed. In my opinion, Bethesda needs to find a medium between high quality voice acting for some scripted quest scenes, and written dialog for others.

 

[The OP3RaT0R]

snip

Excellent post! Off topic, do you read much Ayn Rand? I hear such a ring in your post

Back on topic, I think that defining a guild as morally good or bad is irrelevant, because its actions define it in such a way.

The College of Winterhold, for example; based on its general activites, could be considered moral. It's purpose is to learn, and this is a fine purpose. The Dark Brotherhood's purpose on the other hand, is to murder. This would be immoral. But a problem with this is that technically, a guild is just a means to an end which each member decides, and would thus be amoral. A group cannot be defined unless every member has the exact same motives, only the individuals in that group and the manner in which they use their membership and the guild's resources. A member of the Dark Brotherhood could only accept contracts he considers moral. An apprentice at the College of Winterhold could be studying magic in order to gain immense power which he intends to use to slaughter indiscriminately. The inverse is true as well.

But then, what if a group acts collectively? For example, if the College of Winterhold (not the Arch-Mage or any student, but someone representing the entire College) makes a statement in response to angry local Nords, pledging not to conjure atronachs outside of its property. This would allow for a label of morality to be pasted on. Also, what if a guild only accepts those of a certain moral character? What if a Dark Brotherhood initiate must take some kind of test to prove that they are a rotten killer? Then, on the face of things, the Brotherhood could be called "bad" in and of itself. But on a deeper level, the individual motivations within the guild make the definition more complicated.

 

[Moris]

While mechanical changes to the game are highly desirable, I find most people are complaining about the lack of aesthetic respect shown by NPCs. The only thing limiting about NPC's showing the proper respect is the amount of additional voice acting required. I could hire an English Major intern at $8.00/hr to sit at a computer and bang out some awesome dialog for every NPC, for every reputation value, in the game. You saw a better representation of this in Morrowind, because there was very little voice acting. Almost all text. But the text was compelling enough that you *wanted* to read it. The hidden advantage of text is that it can be fixed by anybody. Try getting Patrick Stewart to sign a 3-year deal where he's on call to re-voice his characters every time dialog is hotfixed. In my opinion, Bethesda needs to find a medium between high quality voice acting for some scripted quest scenes, and written dialog for others.

If you've used the mod for more respectful guards, you'll realize that there are a lot of voiced comments that you never hear but they are nevertheless available and made by the original voice actors. The mod unlocks them. Why Bethesda chose to make them basically unavailable is a mystery to me.

In fact, I read somewhere that Hrongar has quite a bit of extra dialog which is never made available because the storyline that was voiced (Balgruuf's death) was never implemented in the game. How much more voice acting we never hear is anyone's guess.

 

[Moris]

A group cannot be defined unless every member has the exact same motives, only the individuals in that group and the manner in which they use their membership and the guild's resources.

I don't think everyone is going to agree with this statement. It's imaginable that there were low ranking members of the Nazi party whose motives were significantly different from its leaders. Nevertheless, we tend to think of the entire party as rather evil. Depending on your views, you might think similarly of Al-Quaida, the Communist Party, Roman Catholics, The Democratic Party, the KKK, Greenpeace, or the American Bar Association, to name just a few. It's quite human to assign a group motive, particularly when the group is well organized and has a known philosophy/modus operandi/set of beliefs.

In no way do I feel a need to be certain that every single member of a group thinks in an identical way (it would be impossible, in any case) before I can condemn the group because of its leadership, its stated goals, its platform, or its history.

 

[feliciano182]

Uh, they're assassins. Not generally a socially acceptable career choice. So naturally, they're considered something less than good for profiting from Murder.

Yeah, I acknowledged that, still, there's going to be people in the world who will want to play "assasins with codes", I'm not saying it's the duty of the developers to oblige the fans or some such bullplops, even if it did sound like that.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Yeah, I acknowledged that, still, there's going to be people in the world who will want to play "assasins with codes", I'm not saying it's the duty of the developers to oblige the fans or some such bullplops, even if it did sound like that.

They have the Tenants. If you like, you can also play Assassin's creed. If you don't like the DBH, just don't play them. Why should All factions be good/ In fact, I defy you to find a single one in Skyrim that is completely good. Then again, there's a lot of grey in between the extremes.