DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They just say the Emperor of Skyrim is dead.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
They just say the Emperor of Skyrim is dead.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I remember the guards asking me if I was a member of the Dark Brotherhood.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They also say Hail Sithis. Guards in Windhelm are pussies though, won't go near the boy doing the Black Sacrament. In Cyrodiil you know what the Legion does? They kick in your door, drag you out and then they take your home, they take your possessions, they put you in jail for the rest of your life. Your house then is donated to the Legion to serve as an outpost.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
1. "Psst. Hey, I know who you are. Hail Sithis!"
2. "It ain't true what they say about you and... and the Dark Brotherhood? Is it?"
3. "Now, I know who you are. And... and I know your business... Just, please... These are good folk we got here. Mostly..."
4. "Wait, I know you. You went into the Emperor's Tower, just before... before his decoy was murdered..."
5. "I know who you are, assassin. I guess the rumors about your kind's "extinction" have been... exaggerated."
6. "By the gods. The Emperor's been murdered. On his own ship... moored in the inlet. It was... the Dark Brotherhood. There was nothing we could do..."
7. "There are stories about you, and dark tidings in Dawnstar..."
These were the dialogue that came from the guards. They knew exactly who you are and what you did. If the guards know I sure as hell hope the Imperial Legion from Skyrim knows, they should anyways.
2. "It ain't true what they say about you and... and the Dark Brotherhood? Is it?"
3. "Now, I know who you are. And... and I know your business... Just, please... These are good folk we got here. Mostly..."
4. "Wait, I know you. You went into the Emperor's Tower, just before... before his decoy was murdered..."
5. "I know who you are, assassin. I guess the rumors about your kind's "extinction" have been... exaggerated."
6. "By the gods. The Emperor's been murdered. On his own ship... moored in the inlet. It was... the Dark Brotherhood. There was nothing we could do..."
7. "There are stories about you, and dark tidings in Dawnstar..."
These were the dialogue that came from the guards. They knew exactly who you are and what you did. If the guards know I sure as hell hope the Imperial Legion from Skyrim knows, they should anyways.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
No execution? and here I thought the Legion were execution happy.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You still complaining about that? Deny the Bear of Markarth all you want, but the execution part is too similar with Ulfric and the Stormcloak ideology. Thus the Bear of Markarth must have some truth to it. Though it doesn't matter, you have the same argument as I do, what Ulfric did was legal in the eyes of the law in Skyrim.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Guards also call you the new member of the companions who fetches the mead, when you're the Harbinger.
Guards in Skyrim are the worst in Tamriel, they know you're an assassin somehow and do nothing. I wouldn't take what they say to heart, they're more a in-game fame mechanic. Making comments to reflect your actions.
Sweetroll Thief
New Member
Never bothered them... except for the son of one of the city's most prominent residents, whose mother wails in the town square and is disrespected to an appalling degree by the rich man in league with the lad's captors.
As a player, I think the civil war questline is rather brilliant because there are upsides and downsides for each, and I've enjoyed playing both sides as a character-building exercise-- one character hears Ulfric speaks and finds him compelling, thinking "Hammerfell succeeded at independence, why not Skyrim?" (Redguard character) and my Breton heard the same speech and thought him completely off his rocker and immediately joined the Legion. Every character has a completely different reason for the choice they've made (notably, I have several Stormcloaks and all have different motivations for it, although two are quite selfish), and there isn't really a "good" or an "evil" choice. For instance, both faction leaders disregard the needs of their people in favor of the war. Windhelm has a serial killer on the loose* and Solitude nearly faces a resurrected Potema. A united Empire would seem to be a better choice for a future battle against the Dominion, but only if you believe the pledge to actually fight that battle is real and within their means, present or future. The Empire offers a clearly better economic choice, but is powerless to stop your family members from being disappeared in the night, and their leader seems particularly blinkered to one of the biggest problems facing everyone in the game ("I wasn't sent here to fight dragons")-- at least Ulfric Stormcloak respects the threat that Aldiun presents. This is a hard balance for a game to hit, and I'm impressed with Bethesda for striking it so well.
That said, OOC, this is the reason I just can't side with the Empire. There's a powerful political faction IRL that would quite love to imprison or kill every single member of my religion. The quest to find and free Thorold Grey-Mane sends shivers up my spine-- saying that the open shrine of Talos in Whiterun or the existence of the Emperor's secret amulet somehow obviate the need for a rebellion just... there's a foreign power allowed to operate with impunity and detain, imprison, or torture any citizen that it chooses simply for their religious beliefs. An open shrine doesn't somehow make that less real. If you go to said shrine, you take your life in your hands. Is there someone spying on you? How do you know there isn't? You have family and friends who've had someone taken, so is this a risk you feel comfortable taking? You can make good, damn good arguments against the Stormcloaks, and I think they're all valid, but this is the thing I can't get past. (It also doesn't help that the real-life faction I'm talking about are called "Dominionists" and the one in-game is, of course, the Dominion. I set it aside to roleplay and generally manage to succeed, but my reaction to Thalmor torture is sometimes pretty visceral.)
*-I've wished many times that the game tracked the worldview of RL Norse/Germanic peoples more closely. This quest would never, ever happen this way, not without open calls for Ulfric's removal. A lord who cannot protect his own people is a lord who has lost his luck, and no warrior is going to follow a luckless lord lest it affect his own wyrd and orlog. I similarly see the Dunmer/Stormcloak Nord conflict in Windhelm as less fantastic racism than a massive culture clash that nobody has bothered to sort out. From the Dunmer POV, they came to Windhelm and they work hard, yet are treated shamefully, housed poorly, subjected to crime, and have come to the conclusion that what they care about are other Dunmer, period, and screw the Nords and their murderer and their war. (And, you know, where's the hospitality that Nords *should* be holding sacred?) From the Nord POV, they suddenly had a ton of Dunmer descend on them as refugees and expect to be fully integrated, yet they won't fight with them against the Empire. They're utengard, Other, and make no real attempt to become Nord-- and to a Norseman, there's innangard, your own trusted family/clan/circle, and there's utengard, everyone else. You don't put yourself out for those not in your innangard, you don't trust them until they have proven themselves, you don't risk yourself for them. You'd think a couple hundred years would be time enough for that transition to happen, but if the Dunmer are proud and stick to themselves, I can see how it might not. That seems to me like a fixable thing, with a culturally-aware, good-Speech Stormcloak DB who is neither Nord nor Dunmer to mediate between the two. There's the "an elf is an elf and elves are torturers" problem to overcome, but I think it's doable. I don't know what's driving the Argonian problem, though, beyond unexplained fantastic racism.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Welcome to the thread, I'll throw in my two cents. Mainly cause I enjoy a debate with someone who can see both sides. Though I'm Empire by personal choice.
The Thalmor were unable to operate freely and take whoever they wanted, it wasn't until the rebellion was there a crack down. The Thalmor needed evidence to make an arrest, which is how for over twenty years there weren't any issues of people being kidnapped for worshiping in secret. If you visit Markarth, the head of the Thalmor Justiciars asks you to break into someone's house to find evidence of Talos worship because the Empire supporting Jarl won't call for his arrest on speculation.
"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down."
The Thalmor are using the Civil War to conduct a large inquisition against the Nordic population. They do it to send supporters flocking towards Ulfric's banner, the Thalmor are gaining from the Civil War. They were in Helgen to try stop the execution and save Ulfric's life.
They provide indirect aid towards to the Stormcloaks, the Aldmeri Dominion seek to weaken the Empire, who are their sworn enemies and are against everything the Empire stands for.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak
The Empire and Thalmor are going to war, there is no doubt about it. The Imperial Army is already on the Dominion's borders and the Thalmor are preparing for a second round also.
Before about Ulfric taking the Dragon threat seriously, he doesn't until Season Unending. He seems to use it as a recruitment tool at first, with a rumor spreading he apparently died defending Windhelm from a Dragon single handed to bolster recruitment.
When Ulfric understands the threat of Alduin he takes it seriously, so too does Tullius. I don't know about the end of the world, but this dragon situation has gotten out of hand. If this truce will help the Dragonborn here put an end to that menace, we both gain. Remember that, Ulfric.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
This thread is still going for one? Two it has been a very long time, I remember the long nights we would all spend debating in here. Also I'M BACK! AND I HAVE MY FAVORITE DEBATE OPPONENT LINED UP ALREADY!
As we all know, the High King answered to the Empire, whose laws override those of Skyrim, when the Ulfric committed treason by the laws of the Empire he was sentenced to death, he was captured you were too close, they decide to kill all of you because Tamril does not practice due process at all really that I have seen. Dragon attacks, you escape. We know the story.
The Empire had a military officer sentence you to death, a soldier. A woman paid to follow and give orders to kill any and all perceived threats in the defense of the Empire. Would you rather let a possible enemy go to kill your people? No. You would kill them. I am sure if their were less stormcloaks captured, there is a small chance they would not have gone straight to execution, maybe even have a trial, but Ulfric was a danger to the Empire, he was making an effort to kill the Legion, who likely had friendships among its soldiers. So many soldiers were likely angry for that, not to mention a man like Ulfric, who is a formidable warrior, tactician, and charismatic leader, likely was hard to capture and cost some lives to chain and gag. Men and women doing their jobs died at Ulfrics hands. I wonder how many of them were Nords?
Now so the Empire has an issue, they are angry over the war and death which Ulfric began. They are wounded by the Great War. They are forced to allow Thalmor Agents to operate within their borders, and are otherwise feeling rather beaten. Ulfric and all who back him pose a threat, how do you solve a threat to the security of your nation? You take off its head. Sadly your head is mistaken as part of the number which need their heads removed. Does the Empire enjoy killing people? I highly doubt it. Is it a necessity for their current situation? Yes. Are there other solutions? Yes, but considering the political style of the Empire I do not see any that would be in active use. The laws are laws, and so as a soldier of the Empire the officer who decided to behead you determined that her job is to protect the Empire and enforce its laws chose to do so, and that duty means ordering people to be executed. Ulfric likely had to make the same decision before when he was in the Legion.
We have, for over a year now debated this point of yours Raijin, for the history of this thread we have discussed this defense of yours to defend Ulfric Stormcloak's cause, the True Usurper of The High Throne of Skyrim.
As we all know, the High King answered to the Empire, whose laws override those of Skyrim, when the Ulfric committed treason by the laws of the Empire he was sentenced to death, he was captured you were too close, they decide to kill all of you because Tamril does not practice due process at all really that I have seen. Dragon attacks, you escape. We know the story.
The Empire had a military officer sentence you to death, a soldier. A woman paid to follow and give orders to kill any and all perceived threats in the defense of the Empire. Would you rather let a possible enemy go to kill your people? No. You would kill them. I am sure if their were less stormcloaks captured, there is a small chance they would not have gone straight to execution, maybe even have a trial, but Ulfric was a danger to the Empire, he was making an effort to kill the Legion, who likely had friendships among its soldiers. So many soldiers were likely angry for that, not to mention a man like Ulfric, who is a formidable warrior, tactician, and charismatic leader, likely was hard to capture and cost some lives to chain and gag. Men and women doing their jobs died at Ulfrics hands. I wonder how many of them were Nords?
Now so the Empire has an issue, they are angry over the war and death which Ulfric began. They are wounded by the Great War. They are forced to allow Thalmor Agents to operate within their borders, and are otherwise feeling rather beaten. Ulfric and all who back him pose a threat, how do you solve a threat to the security of your nation? You take off its head. Sadly your head is mistaken as part of the number which need their heads removed. Does the Empire enjoy killing people? I highly doubt it. Is it a necessity for their current situation? Yes. Are there other solutions? Yes, but considering the political style of the Empire I do not see any that would be in active use. The laws are laws, and so as a soldier of the Empire the officer who decided to behead you determined that her job is to protect the Empire and enforce its laws chose to do so, and that duty means ordering people to be executed. Ulfric likely had to make the same decision before when he was in the Legion.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Adding onto Squirrel's post. The Legion follows a very simple code.
Serve the Emperor. Uphold the Law. Protect the Citizenry.
The Legion never takes pride in doing executions. Captain Aldis, a Legion Captain who presides over an execution. Will say, it wasn't his finest hour.
The Legion will face any threat to the Emperor and the Empire with determination and will eliminate that threat. Entire Legions have been known to sacrifice themselves in a doomed battle in defense of the Emperor and the Empire. Notable examples in Imperial history, the Third Legion, the Tenth Legion and the Eighth Legion. Three other unknown Legions gave all their lives in the Great War to defend Cyrodiil & Hammerfell.
The Legion conducting two executions, seriously makes them 'Execution happy' really Raijin?
If you threaten the security of the Empire, don't be surprised the Legion will step in with extreme force. General Tullius was sent to Skyrim to do his job, to uphold his oath to the Emperor, and to the citizenry.
"An oath binding you to the service of the Emperor and thus to every citizen of the Empire" - General Tullius
Serve the Emperor. Uphold the Law. Protect the Citizenry.
The Legion never takes pride in doing executions. Captain Aldis, a Legion Captain who presides over an execution. Will say, it wasn't his finest hour.
The Legion will face any threat to the Emperor and the Empire with determination and will eliminate that threat. Entire Legions have been known to sacrifice themselves in a doomed battle in defense of the Emperor and the Empire. Notable examples in Imperial history, the Third Legion, the Tenth Legion and the Eighth Legion. Three other unknown Legions gave all their lives in the Great War to defend Cyrodiil & Hammerfell.
The Legion conducting two executions, seriously makes them 'Execution happy' really Raijin?
If you threaten the security of the Empire, don't be surprised the Legion will step in with extreme force. General Tullius was sent to Skyrim to do his job, to uphold his oath to the Emperor, and to the citizenry.
"An oath binding you to the service of the Emperor and thus to every citizen of the Empire" - General Tullius
Gigapact
Lollygagging Milk Drinker (according to guards)
I have always joined the Empire.
Why: From my understanding and reading around both online and in the game itself, Titus II was protecting his people. The Aldmeri Dominion was kicking their asses, and they were going to lose more likely. So instead of risking his people being wiped out, he went ahead and signed White-gold Concordat. I don't see anything wrong with what he did. Possibly be wiped out or go ahead attempt to make peace?
I understand that Talos is very important and blah blah, but it is better than dying. I do realize that Hammerfell fought back and came to a tie, good for them. So why don't these two finally just team up and try again?
Stormcloaks: First, I hate the name. I think it's kind of lame... just my opinion. And, they have attacked me a few times due to my character being a High Elf, and that gets annoying. They seem to be a little hateful to many races. Also, I dislike Ulfric. While I believe he is fighting for a decent cause, I think he is also power hungry, and I don't want to work for him. He just sits in is throne with that stance of "I don't give a plops."
I think this whole war is kind of stupid anyways. I mean, the Empire didn't sign the Concordat to be a bunch of dicks. They didn't want to ban Talos, but it became necessary to survive. What is sooo horrible about that? It's not. They did what had to be done.
So, instead of acknowledging this, and working together, Ulfric decided to go murder the High King and start a bunch of plops. Also, the Empire should have been a little more open and discussed it, but they are afraid and realize the dangers. So.... Empire wins for me. I understand why they did what they did, and I respect Titus II for trying to protect his people. Plus I don't give crap about Talos.
Talos, as we all know, was not a God. I don't worship people. Hell no. I don't even worship a God anyhow.
Why: From my understanding and reading around both online and in the game itself, Titus II was protecting his people. The Aldmeri Dominion was kicking their asses, and they were going to lose more likely. So instead of risking his people being wiped out, he went ahead and signed White-gold Concordat. I don't see anything wrong with what he did. Possibly be wiped out or go ahead attempt to make peace?
I understand that Talos is very important and blah blah, but it is better than dying. I do realize that Hammerfell fought back and came to a tie, good for them. So why don't these two finally just team up and try again?
Stormcloaks: First, I hate the name. I think it's kind of lame... just my opinion. And, they have attacked me a few times due to my character being a High Elf, and that gets annoying. They seem to be a little hateful to many races. Also, I dislike Ulfric. While I believe he is fighting for a decent cause, I think he is also power hungry, and I don't want to work for him. He just sits in is throne with that stance of "I don't give a plops."
I think this whole war is kind of stupid anyways. I mean, the Empire didn't sign the Concordat to be a bunch of dicks. They didn't want to ban Talos, but it became necessary to survive. What is sooo horrible about that? It's not. They did what had to be done.
So, instead of acknowledging this, and working together, Ulfric decided to go murder the High King and start a bunch of plops. Also, the Empire should have been a little more open and discussed it, but they are afraid and realize the dangers. So.... Empire wins for me. I understand why they did what they did, and I respect Titus II for trying to protect his people. Plus I don't give crap about Talos.
Talos, as we all know, was not a God. I don't worship people. Hell no. I don't even worship a God anyhow.
Pronged Pickle
Member
Please stop repeating yourself when your repeated question is answered constantly.
The Dragonborn is found alongside Ulfric Stormcloak and his top lieutenants in the wilderness prior to being caught by the Imperials. From this, the Dragonborn is guilty for being a Stormcloak, from the Imperials perspective. Same with Lokir. The only possible evidence that could show otherwise, is an explanation from either the other Stormcloaks, or the Dragonborn himself. However, as shown by Lokir's murder, it's highly unlikely that that would be accepted. But either way, nothing of the sorts is provided.
This is all because of Tamrielic law, that states a criminal is "guilty until proven innocent." Meaning that a person is automatically guilty of a crime if suspected, and is only proven by specific, hard evidence that says otherwise (not yelling "We aren't Stormcloaks, this is a mistake!"), according to the book Legal Basics. Whatever that evidence for innocence may be, I am unsure.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I also have the idea that everything that could be said about this specific topic, has been said. Questions have been answered over and over again and we are going in circles right now. Although I am interested in where Raijin's posts are going.
Oh, btw: www.uesp.net is a better source for information than SkyrimWikia. UESP gets updated constantly by a very dedicated group of writers. Wikia tends to contain mistakes and incorrect information.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I agree with a lot of the stuff that has been said in your post - Except for the tiny little part I just quoted.
You may think it is lame that a person becomes a deity after his death (I can totally understand that), but Talos is an actual ingame God. If he wouldn't be real, his shrine wouldn't cure diseases and his amulet wouldn't have any effect on us. We don't see him in the Hall of Valor either when you visit Sovngarde. I mean, all the heroes mentioned in the game are there. Except for Talos. Why? Because he is a God and doesn't live amongst men in the afterlife.
Yet the Aldmeri Domion wants the worship of Talos to be banned. To understand that, we must first understand that the Aldmeri religion forms the basis for most of the other religious practices on the continent, primarily due to its widespread acceptance prior to the advent of human civilization.
The Aldmeri Dominion thinks that acknowledging a mortal as a deity is a violation of their pantheon.
I personally believe in freedom of religion. A person should be able to worship a turd, if that makes him happy. But I agree with you 100% that the White-Gold Concordat was the best thing to do at that time under those circumstances.
J
Jeremius
Guest
You realize that TES is essentially a god's dream right? That means anything can and does happen.
Pronged Pickle: There is a principle. The law says we are guilty UNTIL proven innocent. How can we be truly guilty of a crime with no chance to prove our innocence? The law is clear but it only applies when actually accused of a crime punishable by prison time. being sent to the block magically has no until proven innocent shot.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
According to that logic every scenario you mention could happen. 'What if a goat becomes the new High King of Skyrim?'. Valid story because we are in a dream.
I think you have to draw a line somewhere and take a look at what is likely to happen or unlikely. I don't think that "everything is possible in a dream" means that whatever theory you have about Skyrim's future is decent.
Talos is a God according to TES lore. I explained above why.
EDIT: could you please show me a link to the source of this information? (The whole TES being a dream thing. I'd like to read that)
J
Jeremius
Guest
Talos is a god, only because people believe. faith is a powerful thing. no faith means you would not pray at his shrine which means you would have him blessing you, which means he has no real power.
Daedric princes are the same way. Their power is only there if people believe and observe it.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream. I edited my post though, so I guess you were already quoting me when I added that to the original reply.
According to your logic a God is only a God when people believe in Him. So that would mean Allah, Buddah, Jaweh or the Christian God would only be Gods if a person acknowledges them? I don't think so.
If a God does not exist, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means he is a non-existing God. If you decide not to acknowledge a God, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means He is a God that is not acknowledged by you.
How many people pray each day to the Deity they believe in and ask Him for a favor? And how often do they actually get what they ask for? I don't think believing in a God would mean He automatically has an effect on you. If He has an effect that would prove his existence.
And of course people can experience thing because of the Placebo effect. They think something is true, and kind of create what they are believing in for themselves. And of course, if I pray to God for a better grade on my English exam, that doesn't mean that a good grade is a sign of Divine intervention. It could also mean I just studied very hard. But I am talking about an amulet that reduces the time between shouts with 20%. Or a shrine that cures you from whatever disease you have when you pray to it. ...That is not something we can create for ourselves...
In the Elder Scrolls the divines are real and Talos is real.
