Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Several years, sure. But not 20 or 26, I think.

Well you never know, the Thalmor did get hurt a fair bit in the Great War and they were still fighting in Hammerfell for five more years. So it is speculation to when they arrived and then started carrying out the Talos Hunting. There is just too much doubt with the lack of a date in this matter so it would all be best guess.

For all we know to a Nord recent could be considered years ago.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Hadrik Oaken-Heart (Flight from the Thalmor) was arrested for singing about Talos for seven days in a row, in Markarth. He calls the Thalmor "recently honored 'guests'", so I want to place the date of this event to not too long after the end of the Great War.

Even at this point in time, he says, "the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold."

So the arrests had been going on for quite some time, and were not a recent event. Perhaps there is something in the lore to suggest that the arrests became more frequent recently?

What do you mean? This only proves my point that Talos worship has only been more heavily enforced since the Civil War. It took several days for the Thalmor to arrest people where as now it would be much quicker.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

And this seemed a bit unfair.

To be frank it isn't unfair if it so happens that the Imperial supporters here tend to have more cohesive arguments than the Stormcloak supporters. Just because an opinion is unpopular and is the subject of much flak doesn't mean it is unfair for those supporting said opinion.

 

[Moris]

What do you mean? This only proves my point that Talos worship has only been more heavily enforced since the Civil War. It took several days for the Thalmor to arrest people where as now it would be much quicker.

I don't think anyone disputes that the arrests have been more frequent since the beginning of the Civil War.

What's up for dispute is whether they were frequent enough before to justify a reasonable person taking up arms in the cause for religious freedom.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

What I am saying is that I do not see very much of that empathy or understanding to which you refer coming from those who have actually chosen a side -- Docta Corvina is one outstanding exception. I have seen an awful lot of bashing and trading of personal insults. This doesn't give me the impression that very many proponents on either side are all that open minded or empathetic or respectful of the others views.

ETA: They may well be perfectly respectful and empathetic, but it's not the impression that I get from this thread.

I entered this thread and started to argue for the SC specifically because I saw newbies posting which side they'd chosen, and they were confronted with a barrage of posts explaining why they were wrong. And this seemed a bit unfair. A person brand new to the game should be given a chance to experience it on their own terms first, at least. And if they can't do that because they made the mistake of reading the last few pages of this thread, I'd like them to at least get a balanced view.

I've seen it from both sides. If people were being barraged with post explaining why what they had said was wrong then it was probably they were contradicting the lore.

 

[Moris]

To be frank it isn't unfair if it so happens that the Imperial supporters here tend to have more cohesive arguments than the Stormcloak supporters. Just because an opinion is unpopular and is the subject of much flak doesn't mean it is unfair for those supporting said opinion.

But I don't believe that Imperial supporters' arguments are more cohesive. They're all over the place and often self-contradictory.

As I've already pointed out in another post, Imperial support seems to be the majority opinion for the last 6 weeks, at least.

It's exactly as unfair as if there were a thread called "What race should I choose?" And people posted en masse, "Don't choose Khajiit because they are known thieves, etc, etc." It's fine if that's your opinion, but to use group pressure tactics to try to persuade another player to limit his game play to match your own beliefs just seems unfair to me.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I don't think anyone disputes that the arrests have been more frequent since the beginning of the Civil War.

What's up for dispute is whether they were frequent enough before to justify a reasonable person taking up arms in the cause for religious freedom.

Since when has that been what was up for dispute? I thought you wanted to know whether Ulfric is the cause for the Empire cracking down more heavily on the worship of Talos.

 

[DrunkenMage]

When I think of Titus Mede II's actions in the great war, going to war when his General's advised him it was a bad idea due to their weakened Military, to when he had retaken the Capital and destroyed the Thalmor Army in Cyrodiil then decided for peace instead of fighting the war longer and perhaps losing all his forces.

I always think of this quote, which comes from one of my favorite movies.

"General, soldiering has one great trap: to be a good solider you must love the army. To be a good commander, you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love. We do not fear our own death you and I. But there comes a time... We are never quite prepared for so many to die. Oh, we do expect the occasional empty chair. A salute to fallen comrades. But this war goes on and on and the men die and the price gets ever higher. We are prepared to lose some of us, but we are never prepared to lose all of us. And there is the great trap General."

 

[Dagmar]

....[things that have nothing to do with your prior statement implying that the Thalmor's treatment of the subjects of the Aldmeri Dominion is even remotely laudable and morally superior to the treatment of the Empire of its citizens].....

Putting aside that your references are largely opaque and colored with biased prose, none of it is relevant to the refutation of the rather absurd proposition that the Aldmeri Dominion's treatment of its subjects is in any way laudable in and of itself let alone when compared to the treatment of the Mede Empire of its citizens, even accounting for allowing the Justiciars to detain, investigate and interrogate the Empire's citizens. It has nothing to do with relative moral positions of the Empire and the Stormcloaks and everything to do with the fallow claim alluding to the Dominion's moral position.

Overall the hysterical amount of hyperbole that's permeating the thread again regarding what the Justiciar's can and are doing in Skyrim is absurd. The Justiciars aren't free to run roughshod over any citizen of the Empire for any reason they want. Their powers are limited to ensuring compliance with the White-Gold Concordat. Up until the time of the Stormcloak rebellion, at least as far as the Justiciar's were concerned, that required little action on their part and the lore clearly supports this notion. As I pointed out before, even now every prisoner you see in custody of the Thalmor is in fact a Stormcloak or Stormcloak sympathizer.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

But I don't believe that Imperial supporters' arguments are more cohesive. They're all over the place and often self-contradictory.

Well those here who've had the most cohesive and articulate arguments have been Imperial supporters and I can't really recall any notable SC supporters before you came along.

As I've already pointed out in another post, Imperial support seems to be the majority opinion for the last 6 weeks, at least.

I agree.

It's exactly as unfair as if there were a thread called "What race should I choose?" And people posted en masse, "Don't choose Khajiit because they are known thieves, etc, etc." It's fine if that's your opinion, but to use group pressure tactics to try to persuade another player to limit his game play to match your own beliefs just seems unfair to me.

This thread has moved far beyond the original post. It has more so become a debate on whether which side is right and which is wrong. Nobody is answering which would be best for the OP, nor are they giving a rundown on what either side is like.


Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[DrunkenMage]

It doesn't exactly matter which side you choose, they're both crap and poorly done quest lines. Which could of been so much more.

 

[Dagmar]

What's up for dispute is whether they were frequent enough before to justify a reasonable person taking up arms in the cause for religious freedom.

For 24 years? If we're to accept the fact that the Justiciar's authority to act within the borders of Skyrim are due to the White-Gold Concordat there's no reason to believe they haven't been doing what they've been doing since at least the blatant violation of the Concordat in Markarth in 4E 176, and we know that it was enforced pretty poorly if a bard could blatantly violate it for an entire week in the very city where the Justiciars are headquartered.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

But I don't believe that Imperial supporters' arguments are more cohesive. They're all over the place and often self-contradictory.

As I've already pointed out in another post, Imperial support seems to be the majority opinion for the last 6 weeks, at least.

It's exactly as unfair as if there were a thread called "What race should I choose?" And people posted en masse, "Don't choose Khajiit because they are known thieves, etc, etc." It's fine if that's your opinion, but to use group pressure tactics to try to persuade another player to limit his game play to match your own beliefs just seems unfair to me.

I've actually only seen SC supporters go all over the place and use self-contradicting arguments. That's why you always see me and others correcting their lore alot. You and Ozan are actually the only SC supporters I've seen with good grammar and compelling arguments, despite sometimes contradicting the lore yourself at times. The Imperial supporters that I've seen so far however seem to be able to come up with coherent sentences and arguments backed by the lore. This is just my observations of what I've seen on this thread since the day I joined these forums.

 

[Moris]

Overall the hysterical amount of hyperbole that's permeating the thread again regarding what the Justiciar's can and are doing in Skyrim is absurd. The Justiciars aren't free to run roughshod over any citizen of the Empire for any reason they want. Their powers are limited to ensuring compliance with the White-Gold Concordat. Up until the time of the Stormcloak rebellion, at least as far as the Justiciar's were concerned, that required little action on their part and the lore clearly supports this notion. As I pointed out before, even now every prisoner you see in custody of the Thalmor is in fact a Stormcloak or Stormcloak sympathizer.

Where's the hysterical hyperbole?

I know I said that the Thalmor have free access to Skyrim's holds, castles, dungeons, and citizens. It's clear that they do. They are a foreign power, and yet they DO have the ability to question and arrest people. They do have quarters in Castle Dour. They do have the ability to travel freely and without being questioned through all the Imperial-held holds in Skyrim. They do have access to the Jarl's longhouses and can wander freely through the castles.

To me, this exceeds what I would expect would be allowed other foreign powers under ordinary circumstances. Obviously, Empire agents have this access as Skyrim is part of the Empire. But Hammerfell doesn't. Its agents are forbidden entry by Whiterun -- which is as you'd expect it to be.

I did not mean to imply that the Thalmor could do anything they wanted (though they will tell the player that they can). They obviously need some shred of evidence, which is why Ondolemar wants Ogmund's amulet of Talos.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Where's the hysterical hyperbole?

I know I said that the Thalmor have free access to Skyrim's holds, castles, dungeons, and citizens. It's clear that they do. They are a foreign power, and yet they DO have the ability to question and arrest people. They do have quarters in Castle Dour. They do have the ability to travel freely and without being questioned through all the Imperial-held holds in Skyrim. They do have access to the Jarl's longhouses and can wander freely through the castles.

To me, this exceeds what I would expect would be allowed other foreign powers under ordinary circumstances. Obviously, Empire agents have this access as Skyrim is part of the Empire. But Hammerfell doesn't. Its agents are forbidden entry by Whiterun -- which is as you'd expect it to be.

I did not mean to imply that the Thalmor could do anything they wanted (though they will tell the player that they can). They obviously need some shred of evidence, which is why Ondolemar wants Ogmund's amulet of Talos.

I've never seen them in Castle Dour?

Hammerfell Agents aren't forbidden, they became forbidden when they started some trouble and one got thrown in Jail if I remember right.

 

[Moris]

For 24 years? If we're to accept the fact that the Justiciar's authority to act within the borders of Skyrim are due to the White-Gold Concordat there's no reason to believe they haven't been doing what they've been doing since at least the blatant violation of the Concordat in Markarth in 4E 176, and we know that it was enforced pretty poorly if a bard could blatantly violate it for an entire week in the very city where the Justiciars are headquartered.

Enforced poorly, but enforced.

Isn't any enforcement going to sting, if you are at all devout?

 

[Moris]

I've never seen them in Castle Dour?

Hammerfell Agents aren't forbidden, they became forbidden when they started some trouble and one got thrown in Jail if I remember right.

They have their own quarters in the Castle.

Hammerfell agents are forbidden to do anything in their capacity as agents, such as stirring up that trouble you mentioned.

 

[DrunkenMage]

They have their own quarters in the Castle.

Hammerfell agents are forbidden to do anything in their capacity as agents, such as stirring up that trouble you mentioned.

Yeah I know they have quarters, probably used until they got an embassy, I stormed it and was sad cause I ran in hoping for a battle. Place was empty.

That isn't anything against the Empire though. The Legion isn't controlling Whiterun at the time.

 

[Moris]

I've actually only seen SC supporters go all over the place and use self-contradicting arguments. That's why you always see me and others correcting their lore alot. You and Ozan are actually the only SC supporters I've seen with good grammar and compelling arguments, despite sometimes contradicting the lore yourself at times. The Imperial supporters that I've seen so far however seem to be able to come up with coherent sentences and arguments backed by the lore. This is just my observations of what I've seen on this thread since the day I joined these forums.

I find uninvited grammar corrections to be inordinately rude, so I don't usually offer them. But if I were to do so, I would be correcting Imperial supporters very frequently too, Imperial supporters, I might add, who are native speakers of English.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I find uninvited grammar corrections to be inordinately rude, so I don't usually offer them. But if I were to do so, I would be correcting Imperial supporters very frequently too, Imperial supporters, I might add, who are native speakers of English.

But the majority appears to be SC supporters. I'm aware there are people like that Order of Talos guy who can't spell.