Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Isn't Sovngarde for honorable Nord types?

Indeed, and it's irrespective of civil war faction. I find that telling, myself. Legionnaire Nords, like Rikke, have every ounce as much honor and valor as Stormcloak Nords. It thus seems fair to infer that the case can be made for inherent legitimacy of the former's cause as well. They're all "true sons and daughters of Skyrim". I think Beth did a good job to highlight the overall tragedy that way.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
Indeed, and it's irrespective of civil war faction. I find that telling, myself. Legionnaire Nords, like Rikke, have every ounce as much honor and valor as Stormcloak Nords. It thus seems fair to infer that the case can be made for inherent legitimacy of the former's cause as well. They're all "true sons and daughters of Skyrim". I think Beth did a good job to highlight the overall tragedy that way.

Then what does it mean when those who speak of Ulfric going to Sovngarde also support the Colovian? Also claiming he is not honorable? Does this not contradict one's argument?
 

Grogmar Ghrobash

'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
Then what does it mean when those who speak of Ulfric going to Sovngarde also support the Colovian? Also claiming he is not honorable? Does this not contradict one's argument?

You don't necessarily have to be honorable, you just have to show that you're a valiant warrior.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
You don't necessarily have to be honorable, you just have to show that you're a valiant warrior.

Forgive Khajiit as Ta'agra burdens most of his tongue. What exactly does valiant mean?
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Then what does it mean when those who speak of Ulfric going to Sovngarde also support the Colovian? Also claiming he is not honorable? Does this not contradict one's argument?

You see soldiers on both sides in Sovngarde, that aside I'm fairly sure that all who die in battle go to Sovngarde. But I'm not positive.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
 

Grogmar Ghrobash

'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
Forgive Khajiit as Ta'agra burdens most of his tongue. What exactly does valiant mean?

That they're courageous or brave.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
What about that Greybeard monk? Did he not die of natural causes, living a life of peace after the battle of red mountain?
 

Grogmar Ghrobash

'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
What about that Greybeard monk? Did he not die of natural causes, living a life of peace after the battle of red mountain?

He was still a war leader before he became a pacifist. You don't need to be a blood thirsty barbarian to be brave or courageous anyhow.

Now that I reread your post however, I see you were saying that in reply to Mr. Self Destruct. You don't have to die in battle be admitted into Sovengarde.
 

Moris

...
Ulfric even acknowledges how futile and delusional he was in his campaign once you visit him in Sovngarde and if you're own leader is telling you that your cause is wrong I hardly see how you can argue against him.

What exactly does Ulfric say in Sovngarde? Can you quote it?

He says: "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggles against fate. And so in death, too late I learn the truth -- fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater -- wisdom now useless. By god's jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

This is nothing new. If he'd listened to Esbern during the peace conference at High Hrothgar, he'd have realized that Esbern said exactly the same thing to BOTH sides:

War makes dead soldiers, and dead soldiers feed Alduin.

I don't see any evidence of Ulfric regretting his cause, or seeing it as wrong, only the violence the war itself caused. The Imperials are just as guilty of that. And since he's regretting feeding Alduin, had the dragon been eliminated prior to Ulfric's death, he'd have no more cause to feel remorse in that regard because the war would not be feeding the World-Eater any more.

If there's some other dialogue that he says which shows that he states he felt his cause was wrong, please quote it. I'd like to hear it. Because it's a PITA to get to it in game if you haven't done the quests in the right order.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
Then the Torygg should not be there, as he lacked combat experience and was shouted into the dirt, not having a chance to prove he was a warrior.
 

Grogmar Ghrobash

'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
Then the Torygg should not be there, as he lacked combat experience and was shouted into the dirt, not having a chance to prove he was a warrior.

Read my edit. And you don't need to be a seasoned warrior to have bravery or courage.
 

azali100

Active Member
Then the Torygg should not be there, as he lacked combat experience and was shouted into the dirt, not having a chance to prove he was a warrior.

The fact that he took on Ulfric makes him courageous and he died in battle. Sovengarde is just Elder Scrolls Vallhalla.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
So, if Ulfric challenged a baker and destroyed him, the baker becomes a warrior?
 

Moris

...
In fact, if you meet Rikke in Sovngarde, she says the same thing:

"The bitter war of the world beyond was all for naught. We are all trapped in Alduin's web -- for our allegiance he cares not, but devours us equally -- doom unescapable."
 

Grogmar Ghrobash

'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
So, if Ulfric challenged a baker and destroyed him, the baker becomes a warrior?

If the baker was a Nord who showed courage and bravery in his death, then yes. Sovengarde is an afterlife, it's not like some VIP club or clique where you need to fit some ridiculous standards to go to.
 

azali100

Active Member
So, if Ulfric challenged a baker and destroyed him, the baker becomes a warrior?
I wasn't aware that Ulfric Stormcloak and Torryg were bakers.

But I would assume that the baker who faced Ulfric in battle with courage and died would go to Sovengarde.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Then what does it mean when those who speak of Ulfric going to Sovngarde also support the Colovian? Also claiming he is not honorable? Does this not contradict one's argument?

Not necessarily, because though he may have fought what many see to be wrongheadedly, he did fight bravely and with conviction. It's no different to me than when some Stormcloak Nords say that their Legionnaire counterparts lack honor (and by implication have no business in Sovngarde). Yet, Rikke finds her way there. Remember that even Torygg is present in Sovngarde, as much as some people like to try to tear him down and cast him as an unacceptable weakling who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. He was not perfect, but he faced his fate honorably. As someone mentioned earlier, is it possibly more about the manner of death, rather how one faces it, than the (mis)deeds of life? I'd have to do more research into the lore of Nordic custom to know for sure.. Not to say, of course, that a merciless Nord brigand would get rights to the Hall in Sovngarde because he faced death without emotion. I think there's more to it than that. And maybe it's not even all quantifiable, or able to be qualified.

We should also remember that Ulfric is not swaggering and blustering when we meet him in the afterlife, it's quite the contrary. While not fully repentant for his actions and his overall cause, he readily admits the tragedy of it all, how it served to fuel the World-Eater and how his people were "betrayed" and thrust into such bloody chaos. He was a warrior to the end, though. I do believe one can simultaneously harbor ambition and altruistic desires (most especially where it concerns those one considers kinsmen). And really, even if Ulfric was honestly devoid of any and all hopes of the crown or personal glory, and was blindly convinced that his actions were just, we can still disagree with his assessment and oppose him. That doesn't change the fact that he was a fighter to be reckoned with.

To me, it's no different than Ralof and Hadvar expecting to see each other in Sovngarde at death. They're on different sides, but the honor in fighting with courage and standing your ground seems to be broadly acknowledged by the Nords. In that way, I don't think it's necessarily incomparable to the men fighting on opposing sides in the US Civil War. There was, according to several sources, respect shown during and at the end of the war, owing in part to mutual acceptance of defense of one's home and livelihood. They were all kinsmen after all. And therein lied the great tragedy.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
What about that bard who was executed? He was no warrior and was killed by Olaf One-eye. How was he allowed access if he had not been a valiant warrior in life? This confuses Khajiit.
 
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