Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

In the end, The Thalmor won the war by fighting the empire until they agreed to the demands of the WGC. More than one way to skin a cat, y'know.

Now, the empire is waiting for the chance to get payback on the dominion for beating them the first time.

 

[Aragorn]

Here's my big issue on this, In the end who care? I mean Bethesda will obviously pick who won in the end and i doubt there will be transferring the save to TES6 so they know your choices in the last game.

This is just my thoughts on the monster that this issue has become :]

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Here's my big issue on this, In the end who care? I mean Bethesda will obviously pick who won in the end and i doubt there will be transferring the save to TES6 so they know your choices in the last game.

This is just my thoughts on the monster that this issue has become :]

We have already discussed what you just said multiple times in great detail, we are fully aware of this, however we actually quite enjoy the debating.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Here's my big issue on this, In the end who care? I mean Bethesda will obviously pick who won in the end and i doubt there will be transferring the save to TES6 so they know your choices in the last game.

This is just my thoughts on the monster that this issue has become :]

 

[Jeremius]

We have already discussed what you just said multiple times in great detail, we are fully aware of this, however we actually quite enjoy the debating.

So why bother with the CW? it means nothing anyways.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

So why bother with the CW? it means nothing anyways.

Because it was in the game and we want to discuss it. Shouldn't be too difficult to understand.

 

[Jeremius]

Because it was in the game and we want to discuss it. Shouldn't be too difficult to understand.

you can talk about it, i meant actually doing it. Other than "it was in the game, so it needed to be done."

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

you can talk about it, i meant actually doing it. Other than "it was in the game, so it needed to be done."

 

[Raijin]

So basically, he could just go to the court wizard store and buy a new model.

If you want to put it that way yeah

In all seriousness, I really am struggling to understand your issue with Balgruuf for not wanting Farengar to go barreling into the fray. He knows what the mage is like, aside from his arrogance. He's overly inquisitive and apparently oblivious to danger when it comes to something that fascinates him. If anything, Balgruuf didn't want to potentially escalate an already tense and deadly situation by having his court wizard scampering about trying to "collect samples" while the guards and Irileth are trying to stop it from roasting not only them but the city. That actually seems...responsible.

To my understanding Court wizards have an obligation to protect their holds against any threat. Since Farengar was already studying dragons it would've been a great opportunity for him to collect blood/scales/etc samples from the recently deceased dragon that way he could be at least helpful and not some annoying fop. Instead of sending Farengar out to fight the dragon Balgruuf sends an unknown person to fight this dragon. IMO thats ridiculous. I do give him credit sending Irileth was helpful but so was sending Farengar. Fighting Dragons with low level and on master can be quite a challenging.

I know you just don't care much for Balgruuf, which is fine, but it really seems to me like you're grasping at reasons for that dislike. He's really one of the least objectionable Jarls on almost all grounds - your profound dislike of him is mind-boggling to me personally. But, hey...to each his own. I find other things done by other Jarls to be far more offensive and problematic.

With each new character that I create I find things that I never seen on my previous characters. I then start to put the puzzle together. I am quite curious to read the history between him and Ulfric. I firmly believe that he used the empire to get back at Ulfric for a possible selfish reasons. Maybe hes jealous of Ulfrics success? After all Ulfric manage to successfully learn the ancient tongues while Balgruuf had failed. I was also disturbed by the lack of awareness to what was going on with his son, Nelkir. I find it hard to believe that he has no idea that his son was being influenced by a Deadric prince.... especially since hes well aware that he has in his possession a Deadric prince artifact ( Ebony blade) with a warning note Skyrim:Admonition Against Ebony - UESPWiki Why didn't he request a priest of Mara to come to Dragonreach to take care of the artifact? It's known fact that priests of Mara have a specialized magical powers that can return an artifact to the Oblivion as shown during the Vaermina quest in Dawnstar. If the blade couldn't be destroyed then send it back to where it came from

Okay, so not the worst but how about one of the worst? If what amounts to the maintenance of an apartheid system isn't enough to warrant him being among the worst, then that requires rationalizing and allowing for such a thing to be considered acceptable to some degree. Anyone who finds it straight up unacceptable would grant that it makes Ulfric at least one of the worst. You seem to be loathe to do that.

Base on what I've seen in Windhelm I don't think Ulfric is one of the worst Jarls in skyrim. Perhaps the civil war is turning him into a bad jarl, but not the worst or one of the worst.

Actually, Raijin, it's really not ignorant or close minded at all. I have evaluated Ulfric in the same way that I have evaluated the other Jarls thus far. And basic logic holds that just because Person B may also be doing something bad or distasteful, it does not cancel out or mitigate the misdeeds of Person A. The fact that you keep bringing up Igmund whenever Ulfric's issues are raised tells me two things: yes, you hate Igmund and think he's worthless, and that you somehow think that Ulfric isn't as much to blame for his problems or shouldn't be held to much account for them - simply because Igmund may also be an asshole. That strikes me as something like comparing dictators or world atrocities or other Bad Things for the sake of whitewashing one or the other - I see no use in it. In fact, it seems rather silly. Both men as Jarls have things they should answer for. Really, almost all of the Jarls do to some extent. But Ulfric's track record isn't particularly golden, to say the least. I don’t like many of the activities of some of the Jarls. But the fact is Windhelm is a uniquely bleak situation and Ulfric is top dog there. Thus he gets the bill for it.

Like you I too made a fair evaluation of each Jarls. I started doing it when I first started playing the game so I was unbiased at the time. While Ulfric does have his darksides the fact to the matter is hes known for getting things done. And yes Markarth was his trump card in spite of what I truly feel about it, and how Igmund was just a power hungry politician that was driven by power for wanting to get back into the game, and wanting people to see just how important he is. I feel that Markarth was his golden years. I'm sure the Empire appreciates Ulfric for saving them the hassle of wasting men by retaking back the reach.

If you truly want my RL opinion about Ulfric hes just another religious nut that needs to be institutionalized for a period of time to get proper treatment, however in the game (Gods are real) I admire him for standing up for what he truly believes in. Ulfric isn't the only one that hates the empire for banning the worship of Talos.

As for Ulfric's "valid reason" for being a lackluster Jarl - I don't even need to touch the reasons why that's disturbing when it comes to his belligerence and the ensuing civil war which has killed an untold number of his own people across Skyrim. But even from a theoretical standpoint, that simply doesn't wash. A truly good leader shows the ability to balance his responsibilities. We certainly wouldn't be okay with a president who only managed his people well and took note of their plight during peace time, would we? Just because he's consumed with a war he lobbied for (he himself admits that killing Torygg was tactical in that process) does not in any way give him a free pass at fulfilling all of his duties – and doing so “sloppily” as you put it. If he’d rather be a soldier, then he should be a soldier. But if he can’t also attentively carry out his most basic roles, then perhaps he shouldn’t have bitten off more than he could chew. There’s really no excuse.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant when you said that Ulfric killed an untold amount of his own people across Skyrim. You must elaborate me on this as this is new. And don't mention Bear of Markarth because that has been debated countless of times already.

And yes, Ulfric is most definitely human. And that's why his blinding pride and egocentrism are his tragic flaws.

Thats not what many NPCs are saying about Ulfric

As azali100 pointed out, you're using mechanical facets of the game to argue this particular point and it's not doing your contention any favors. The sizes of cities and the number of NPCs in them are obviously greatly reduced in scale. I highly doubt that every last inch of Windhelm is truly inhabited but even if that's the case, the fact is that the neighborhood the Dark Elves are relegated to is a slum and the Dunmer are not granted the same opportunities as Nords. There's more to it than simply an issue of physical space. If the resources and finances were available to them, their environment would reflect that. Just about nobody wants to live in squalor.

All of this and those poor Dark elves have a bed and shelter to sleep in. Shame on Ulfric for letting them live in the “slum” shame on him for providing shelter for the immigrants of Morrowind.

As for Brunwulf, it is your assumption that he's flat out lying and doesn't mean what he says when it comes to the plight of the non-Nord races. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. After he takes power, we have testimony from various NPCs about the state of things and how their status quo is improving. Yes, Brunwulf states that for now, the Argonians must remain outside the city, most likely indeed for their own safety. If they were suddenly brought in, right after the death of Ulfric, you think the die-hards would take kindly to that? He's expressing fear of violent reactions from the more insular natives, and that is forethought that more leaders need. He's acting responsibly and wisely. He says change will take time, but he's ready to see it through. If he were lying, we wouldn't have the testimony we have to the contrary. I highly doubt that if they felt double-crossed or bait-and-switched, the Dunmer wouldn't speak up about it to you - just like they share their grievances while Ulfric is still alive.

No the die-hards won't take kindly to that, but who's the boss around here? They or Brunwulf? If they conduct violence against the Argonians you take the offenders straight to jail for a certain amount of days. If they murder one then arrest and then sentence them to the chopping block. Residents wont respect you if your soft and fluffy. Besides the architecture of the building can not sustain them, unless if Brunwulf actually allows them to live inside the palace of the kings, and IMO I don't think even that kind hearted Brunwulf would let that happen.

It's your prerogative to maintain that Ulfric is not the worst or even among the worst - just as it's mine to feel that he is. And I have arrived at that conclusion based on a number of observable factors. If the same things don't trouble you, then we are officially at an impasse. But I think we somehow always knew that and just like rattling on at this point.

At least we can agree to something It is our prerogative to maintain our personal opinions regarding to Skyrim political and emotion feelings towards Ulfric. We both would be wasting each other time trying to convince each other otherwise because it will never change no matter what we say

LOL, my Penelope is based on my Penelope.

Really though, I wished to base her partly on the ancient Greek mythological character, the wife of Odysseus - the woman from whom she gets her name, of course. There are implications in her name's meaning, but those will be revealed in my story.

I never thought of her playing any kind of role of ancient Greek. It's funny that you said that because my current Breton was built to resemble the ancient Egyptian gods Ra/Horus = Ra-Horakhty

 

[Rickysousa]

Im not a perfect person, but neither am i one for partisan politics. But putting my personal beliefs aside, i wanna share this little idea with you. Bethesda WANTS you to be a Stormcloak.

But Ricky, Why? Why would Bethesda make an RPG and then try to influence our choices anyway?

Well Little Jimmie lemme tell ya! I dont really know. Probably because they want variety. They want you to choose to rebel against the empire after a long time serving it in Oblivion. What's ther point in that?

Hey Ricky! How do you know they want you to pick Stormcloaks?

It all starts in the intro; as you wake from a haze you are greeted with a carriage full of dudes you dont even know. So what does the guy across from you do? Starts a friendly convo and asks if youre okay! Ralof's attitude is charismatic and honorable, he truly wants the wellbeing of Skyrim thats how you know their cause is just.

Later after creating your character the Empire realizes that you are not a Stormcloak and what does that BITCH captain say "ehhh fluff it kill em anyway" they would kill you just to avoid having a witness around!

Should your race affect (effect?) your military service? Well the guards will toss a racial slur every once in a while, but all nords respect hard work, so settle down and put your nose to the grindstone as you become a thane and EARN their respect. Besides that the only hints of racism come from that guy in Windhelm talking smack to the Dunmer when you first enter and you hear a few bad rumors about Ulfric from Brunwulf Free-Winter....the dick. So no i dont believe that the Stormcloaks are "racist" just skeptical of outsiders probably from events like the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War

And finally if you've played all the way through Stormcloak (spoiler) youve seen ulfric spare the life of Elisif because killing her solves nothing! Falk Fire Beard will tell you "it was the ultimate display of compassion" because it was Ulfric knows the people of solitude follows Elisif so she is best to rule it. But what does Tullius do when you storm Windhelm? Yup he kills erryone! just kill and replace thats the empire.

But what does Skyrim teach us? Sweet sword moves, vocabulary, and how to slay dragons, yeah of course...but it teaches us that we have a right to rule ourselves to fight for freedom. it takes two to fight yes, but we fight so we do not die. it teaches us that as one united force we can stand up for justice, right, and the greater good and beat back the Aldemeri Dominion!!!!!!

 

[richman_1995]

Well said.

 

[Raijin]

Rickysousa indeed well said my brother Unfortunately the Imperial supporting members from this site will try to think of anything to discredit you so be warn to get a nasty retaliation back at you

As far as that bitch captain from Helgan... Yeah that was discussed more than once here. Funny how when you follow Hadvar out of the carnage he has the audacity to recommends that you join up with the Imperial legion. After hes finished you are given the dialogue of "General Tullus ordered my execution why would I want to help him?" No dialgue regarding to the captain bitch. So apparently the game indicates that it was General Tullus that ordered for your execution, and not captain PMS.

Hadvar does respond back by saying: "I don't blame you for being angry about it. I would be, too, in your shoes. But it was all a mistake. You weren't supposed to be on that cart with those stormcloak traitors." he goes on "And the imperial legion needs your help, especially now, with that dragon out there somewhere, and Ulfric back on the loose."

Yeah after being inches away of death you want to butter me up such nonsense, and how General Tullius doesn't have a care in the world? Seriously why would I want to join the legion when they make "too many mistakes?"

Sorry Hadvar. I got nothing against you, personally, but I do have a bone to pick with the legion for almost murdering me.

It's hard to make friends with those who tried killing you without any remorse. I think I take my chances with Ulfric then with General Tittius.

 

[Docta Corvina]

If you want to put it that way yeah
To my understanding Court wizards have an obligation to protect their holds against any threat. Since Farengar was already studying dragons it would've been a great opportunity for him to collect blood/scales/etc samples from the recently deceased dragon that way he could be at least helpful and not some annoying fop. Instead of sending Farengar out to fight the dragon Balgruuf sends an unknown person to fight this dragon. IMO thats ridiculous. I do give him credit sending Irileth was helpful but so was sending Farengar. Fighting Dragons with low level and on master can be quite a challenging.

They have a responsibility to the Jarls and their Holds, indeed. And they are to serve as counsel for the Jarls and to aid them as they are called upon. If you recall, it's Balgruuf and Co's first encounter with a dragon. No one knows what to expect. Balgruuf wants you to go because, I dunno, maybe it has something to do with the fact that you've been down this road before. You're the only one in the room with experience. Gauging one's actions wisely and calmly and rationally is the sign of a thoughtful leader. And him keeping Farengar back makes sense to me as much as it confounds you. Farengar has his role to serve; it simply wasn't out on the front lines in the very first battle. If you remember, he managed to show up during the Odahviing trapping to get "samples"....and we know how that went for him.

With each new character that I create I find things that I never seen on my previous characters. I then start to put the puzzle together. I am quite curious to read the history between him and Ulfric. I firmly believe that he used the empire to get back at Ulfric for a possible selfish reasons. Maybe hes jealous of Ulfrics success? After all Ulfric manage to successfully learn the ancient tongues while Balgruuf had failed.

Are you really suggesting that Balgruuf is that petty? I've seen absolutely no sign of that. Even if he does have a longstanding grievance with the man, he still sees the bigger picture (something the Stormcloaks collectively don't do much of, frankly). He's got the welfare of his people in mind, as well as that of the entirety of his homeland. He's not an overenthusiastic cheerleader for the Empire, by the way. When he speaks of it, he speaks rather pragmatically and never once is there any slip of the tongue to the effect of, "OMG, that bitch Ulfric? I'm SO gonna get his ass back for all the BS!". If you hear that, you're either playing a different game with different dialogue or you're allowing yourself to read way too much into it all. Or you're just hearing things.

Base on what I've seen in Windhelm I don't think Ulfric is one of the worst Jarls in skyrim. Perhaps the civil war is turning him into a bad jarl, but not the worst or one of the worst.

Considering that the policy has been in place for many years and things have apparently only worsened under his rule, which predates the start of the war, I'd say his asshole nature has been with him for quite some time. War can change people for the worse and I've no doubt that has happened with him to some extent. However I'm not naive enough to think all of his racial apathy and bitterness and pride sprang up overnight.

Like you I too made a fair evaluation of each Jarls. I started doing it when I first started playing the game so I was unbiased at the time. While Ulfric does have his darksides the fact to the matter is hes known for getting things done. And yes Markarth was his trump card in spite of what I truly feel about it, and how Igmund was just a power hungry politician that was driven by power for wanting to get back into the game, and wanting people to see just how important he is. I feel that Markarth was his golden years. I'm sure the Empire appreciates Ulfric for saving them the hassle of wasting men by retaking back the reach.

If you truly want my RL opinion about Ulfric hes just another religious nut that needs to be institutionalized for a period of time to get proper treatment, however in the game (Gods are real) I admire him for standing up for what he truly believes in. Ulfric isn't the only one that hates the empire for banning the worship of Talos.

As I've said several times now, Igmund is no saint. I don't think anyone here has ever claimed as much. He made a deal he thought was right at the time, in order to help save his city which was lacking Legion support due to the Great War and was actively being besieged by the Reachmen. He made the deal to save lives. Yeah, it wound up backfiring in the long term, it's true. And in subsequent years his image hasn't necessarily improved. But once again, that has nothing to do with Ulfric being any less of a jerk and an unfit ruler.

Ulfric can't see the bigger picture because of his pride and his egocentrism. That's not an opinion I'm pulling out of the air, it's founded entirely upon observation of him, his dialogue and the circumstances he presides over.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant when you said that Ulfric killed an untold amount of his own people across Skyrim. You must elaborate me on this as this is new. And don't mention Bear of Markarth because that has been debated countless of times already.

Blood on one's hands - the phrase (which you first used) strongly implies responsibility, not necessarily that Ulfric personally ran around slaying his kinsmen. He put the events in motion for it and has championed the continuation of them. The civil war, which he began by killing Torygg (this was part of his strategic plan, he admits that), if you haven't noticed, has pit Nord against Nord. When you're killing Legionnaires, that's who you're often (though not always) killing - not Cyrodiil-born soldiers. Any "true sons and daughters of Skyrim" shouldn't be so glib about the war, and so overly eager to canonize Ulfric for it. They're destroying themselves, arguably for one man's personal crusade. And it's all quite tragic. Especially given that the only ones who really win with such destabilization occurring are in fact the Thalmor. And everyone in Tamriel will have to pay the price.

And of course you don't want to get into the Bear of Markarth, because Dagmar and Mr.Self Destruct have done wonderfully to remind you why it's relevant - as much as you and other Ulfric apologists like to pretend it's not.

Thats not what many NPCs are saying about Ulfric

Damn, stop the presses, Stormcloak sympathizing NPCs kiss Ulfric's ass! I can't believe it! I guess this changes everything I thought about this game!

...Many NPCs also say that what you and others say about the Empire is BS - so what?

All of this and those poor Dark elves have a bed and shelter to sleep in. Shame on Ulfric for letting them live in the “slum” shame on him for providing shelter for the immigrants of Morrowind.

Oh yeah, how nice of him to continue to confine people to a slum based on their race alone. How nice of him to disallow opportunities for them to improve their environment there, to contribute even more robustly to the local economy.

And I personally highly doubt he's "providing shelter" like a poor house. I have every suspicion that they're paying their bills in some fashion. Why, you ask? Oh, because, I have a feeling that Ulfric wouldn't tolerate squatters in his city. It'd be all the reason he needed to formally kick them out.

But yeah, guys, didn't you know? They have a roof over their heads so racism is totally valid.

No the die-hards won't take kindly to that, but who's the boss around here? They or Brunwulf? If they conduct violence against the Argonians you take the offenders straight to jail for a certain amount of days. If they murder one then arrest and then sentence them to the chopping block. Residents wont respect you if your soft and fluffy. Besides the architecture of the building can not sustain them, unless if Brunwulf actually allows them to live inside the palace of the kings, and IMO I don't think even that kind hearted Brunwulf would let that happen.

It's extremely naive to think that if the Argonians were brought in and there were riots, that that wouldn't escalate quickly in all sorts of ways. I applaud Brunwulf for seeing the danger and acting cautiously and rationally before violence theoretically broke out. Brunwulf isn't Jesus, as much as I commend the man's intentions and actions. If troublemakers and angry citizens with pitchforks and swords get stirred up by their status quo suddenly changing again, right after Ulfric's death, you really think that those who want to express their anger in a violent manner won't do so? I would bet that even Ulfric probably didn't like the optics of racist idiots like Rolff running around the Gray Quarter and spouting his vitriol - because it didn't reflect well. But Rolff clearly didn't care, he acted on his hateful, spiteful impulses. And that, ladies and gents, is what Brunwulf fears with too much change at once.

And seeing as Brunwulf fully intends to bring the Argonians back in and said nothing of hesitance on the part of lack of space, I think, again, we should put that notion aside. It's all about keeping his people, all of his people, as safe as possible.

At least we can agree to something It is our prerogative to maintain our personal opinions regarding to Skyrim political and emotion feelings towards Ulfric. We both would be wasting each other time trying to convince each other otherwise because it will never change no matter what we say

And yet, we keep arguing. Why is that?

I never thought of her playing any kind of role of ancient Greek. It's funny that you said that because my current Breton was built to resemble the ancient Egyptian gods Ra/Horus = Ra-Horakhty

Ancient history and mythology FTW. I'm an historian of ancient Rome first and foremost, but I dabble in Egyptology. Good stuff!

 

[Docta Corvina]

Rickysousa indeed well said my brother Unfortunately the Imperial supporting members from this site will try to think of anything to discredit you so be warn to get a nasty retaliation back at you

It's nice to see what you really think of me and my debating style, Raijin.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Im not a perfect person, but neither am i one for partisan politics. But putting my personal beliefs aside, i wanna share this little idea with you. Bethesda WANTS you to be a Stormcloak.

Funny, since the same game I played showed me why siding Empire was the best way to go. Bethesda seriously has a knack for Jedi mind tricks.

Really, if Beth unequivocally wanted us to go Stormcloak, they are many things they could have done differently in the story and with the characters to make them infinitely more sympathetic. Like, I dunno, perhaps not making Ulfric a self-important ass.

It all starts in the intro; as you wake from a haze you are greeted with a carriage full of dudes you dont even know. So what does the guy across from you do? Starts a friendly convo and asks if youre okay! Ralof's attitude is charismatic and honorable, he truly wants the wellbeing of Skyrim thats how you know their cause is just.

Ralof making friendly conversation as a Stormcloak recruitment tool? Interesting theory. In that case, then I'd point to Hadvar's concern for you and advocating on your behalf in the next part of the scene in the same regard.

Bottom line is that there are lots of "nice" friendly people wearing opposing uniforms. The moral of the story is that it's all much more complicated than we often like to think.

Later after creating your character the Empire realizes that you are not a Stormcloak and what does that BITCH captain say "ehhh fu** it kill em anyway" they would kill you just to avoid having a witness around!

Ah, yes, the bitchy captain = the entire Legion argument.

In turn, the very presence of a sympathetic Hadvar is meant to show the Legion and Empire in other dimensions. You're meant to see the chaos of war in that opening scene and Beth deliberately made it able to pull us in two directions. I played through the very same events as you and I followed Hadvar and wound up supporting the Empire in every subsequent playthrough. The mere existence of this thread and its very long life shows damn good writing on Beth's part. So please, give them a bit more credit than to suggest that they only wanted us to go one way. Everything in game shows us to the contrary.

I should add that no one who plays for the Empire has any love for that idiot captain. If you watch the entire scene closely, making note of where all of the key characters are, you see that Tullius is totally fixed on Ulfric when all of this goes down with the captain and Hadvar. Should he have been more engaged with the line of prisoners? Perhaps so.

But to blame the entire Legion and the Empire for one ignorant officer thus renders it just as valid to paint the entirety of the Stormcloaks as racists because of what some NPCs sympathetic to them say. It's a two way street, my friends.

Should your race affect (effect?) your military service? Well the guards will toss a racial slur every once in a while, but all nords respect hard work, so settle down and put your nose to the grindstone as you become a thane and EARN their respect. Besides that the only hints of racism come from that guy in Windhelm talking smack to the Dunmer when you first enter and you hear a few bad rumors about Ulfric from Brunwulf Free-Winter....the dick. So no i dont believe that the Stormcloaks are "racist" just skeptical of outsiders probably from events like the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War

Clearly you haven't listened to others in the city, like Elda in the pub. Oh, and that Gray Quarter thing that exists. Yeah, there's that...

And oh yeah, that Brunwulf, such a horrible guy. Opposes racist policies, cares about the well-being of more than just Nords. What an ass.

Not all Stormies are racist, but more than one of the sympathizers I've spoken with in Windhelm have no qualms about putting that idiocy on full display.

Also, if the Nords in Windhelm are as respectful of hard work as is being claimed, then they should have NO problem with having the Argonians inside their city walls. Yanno, since they're the ones unloading the ships and working the docks day in and day out because the Nords don't care to do so. Strange then, isn't it, that they've been relegated to the outside for so long? Jarl Brunwulf at least expresses his desire to bring them in eventually, but it will take some time.

And finally if you've played all the way through Stormcloak (spoiler) youve seen ulfric spare the life of Elisif because killing her solves nothing! Falk Fire Beard will tell you "it was the ultimate display of compassion" because it was Ulfric knows the people of solitude follows Elisif so she is best to rule it. But what does Tullius do when you storm Windhelm? Yup he kills erryone! just kill and replace thats the empire.

Tullius fights his way along with you and Rikke to the Palace of the Kings and after Ulfric refuses to surrender, Tullius is forced to fight the rebel leader until he's dead. Tullius didn't just burst in hacking and slashing like a madman. Ulfric was to be executed for treason, insurrection and murder either at home in Skyrim or in Cyrodiil - he opted for the former.

Also, Ulfric did not end up sparing Rikke or Tullius at the end of the Stormcloak questline, so I fail to see how this argument has any real resonance.

Ulfric spared Elisif's life because let's face it: it'd look really bad if he killed her not so long after killing her husband. Being a man all about politics and optics, well, he knows better. I'm not naive enough to believe it was purely out of the goodness of his heart. He wanted more of the people on his side, including those who didn't support him through the war. It wouldn't do him well to slaughter mild-mannered Elisif after he fought off Tullius' troops. He'd look like even more of a bloodthirsty warmonger, something he's aware of and works to counter with his "speeches". Not to mention, it wouldn't make such a sweet sounding song about him - since that's apparently something he really cares about. Evidence? Listen to his dialogue in the final missions of both CW questlines - for that matter, also listen to Galmar's reaction to it in the Stormcloak version. I laughed, pretty damn hard.

But what does Skyrim teach us? Sweet sword moves, vocabulary, and how to slay dragons, yeah of course...but it teaches us that we have a right to rule ourselves to fight for freedom. it takes two to fight yes, but we fight so we do not die. it teaches us that as one united force we can stand up for justice, right, and the greater good and beat back the Aldemeri Dominion!!!!!!

In addition to game-specific skills, Skyrim teaches me that the Dominion are damned smart, given that they have lifetimes to plot future strategies of destruction and subjugation. It shows me that one man is willing to throw his entire homeland and its people into a bloody tailspin for the sake of what I see to be his own personal crusade - that it's all playing into the proxy war the Dominion is waging. Short-sightedness will be the collective undoing.

The greater good is indeed paramount. And that's why I side with the Empire.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Ulfric, to me, is a good military leader. He reminds me of someone like William Wallace, he's fighting for what he believes in and is taking the natives of Skyrim and training them to be a rather fearsome army to wage a bloody war using effective, if brutal, tactics for what he thinks is what is best for his people. However he is a poor political leader. I would put him in charge of my armies in a heartbeat, but not my country even if you threatened to blow my brains out my ear.

Something many of you fail to see one simple fact, just because you believe in something and fight for it doesn't mean it's best. People in our own world fight brutal wars for what they believe all through history. The crusaders believed that all non-christians were evil and that they needed to reclaim the Holy Land. Now there is good reason the crusades are my go to war for brutality and slaughter in the name of ones beliefs. The crusades were destructive and one of the most bloody wars in history. In my own opinion possibly worse than the two World Wars combined.

Another thing to consider is the Nords who join the Legion during the Civil War are also fighting for what they believe in, and that is the belief the Empire is what is best for Skyrim. And those Nords are just as ready to die for what they believe in as Ulfric or any of the Stormcloaks.

I personally played the Stormcloak side of the Civil War multiple times before I played the Imperial side even once. So I am well acquainted with the Stormcloaks, but I am personally more of a Empire supporter than Stormcloak.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

you can talk about it, i meant actually doing it. Other than "it was in the game, so it needed to be done."

Ok your stupidity of that repeated point has finally snapped me. In a game like Skyrim, by your logic, every quest line is pointless besides the main quest line, since none of them will affect the next game. I suggest you just trade in Skyrim for something more narrow minded, leave these forums, and never return. Since it seems you believe everything about the game is pointless.

The Civil War, in my own personal opinion, is more important than any of the faction quest lines. It is the only quest line that has any permanent or long term effect on the game world. Peoples obsession with one game affecting the sequel in such away that your actions are perfectly represented and translated into the sequel is ridiculous. We've seen what happens when game developers try to do that with a series. Just look at the the Mass Effect series, there are just too many variables for your choices to really matter all that much in the larger scheme of things.

Play the game, enjoy it, and if you don't like it don't play it and just leave those of us who like it or see a point in something you don't alone to enjoy the game and discuss it as we see fit.

 

[Commodus]

Something many of you fail to see one simple fact, just because you believe in something and fight for it doesn't mean it's best. People in our own world fight brutal wars for what they believe all through history. The crusaders believed that all non-christians were evil and that they needed to reclaim the Holy Land. Now there is good reason the crusades are my go to war for brutality and slaughter in the name of ones beliefs. The crusades were destructive and one of the most bloody wars in history. In my own opinion possibly worse than the two World Wars combined.

You're absolutely correct. And the beauty of this Civil War plot in Skyrim is just how reminiscent it is to our own experiences, both of war and revolution. You can tell that they just "get" the realities of these situations, let me explain further.

I believe that Ulfric believes in what he's doing, his speech about the reasons he fights is oddly moving in that he sounds like a very passionate, sincere man. And in that sense, I see why people like him. He's brave, he's commanding, he exhibits the very qualities of defiance and audacity that could turn an ordinary English bandit into a Robin Hood, or transform a minor thief and killer into Billy The Kid.
Win or lose, he's destined to become a legend to the Nords, an almost Mythical figure of reverence.

And this is where the problems start.
His goal is to return a conquered people to their former glory, and the very subjugation of the Nords is what affords him such a dangerous level of power. Of course he maltreats different races! Of course he relegates 'inferior' races to ghettos and slums! Through him courses the accumulated bile and vindictiveness of an entire people.
He wants power and the Nords will allow this, providing he uses that power to squash those who represent their perceived oppression. Who cares what happens to the elves? Who cares if a caravan of traders were massacred? They were cats, they weren't like us.

This is where most revolutionaries fail, when you think about it.
When Robespierre stood before the guillotine with his jaw hanging off, when Gaddafi was being beaten to death in the streets, when Ceaucescu was singing the Internationale even as he was dragged off to a firing squad, they all died thinking that they were the same brave revolutionaries that they used to be.
They never have the self-awareness to acknowledge their own failings.

And the reason is that revolutions are an attempt to forge the world into a better shape, don't you think? Peace, land and bread! Liberté, égalité, fraternité!
The men behind these Civil Wars and uprisings hold these ideals close, using them to justify any brutality as a necessary evil.
Ulfric is the same, he fights because he wants to change the world to better suit his own needs, his own desires, his own ambitions.
And tell me, what happens when the world doesn't conform to his tidy little plans?
Well, what happened when reality didn't match the fantasy that Robespierre crafted? Send a few thousand to the guillotine, force the world to change.

Ulfric is the same. A mere man struggling against the randomness and unpredictability of a cruel world. We see only a sample of his bigotry and cruelty, but what lengths would he go to? What extremes would he be driven to when the pretty little world he created began to crumble around him?
Pogroms, witch-hunts, massacres.

Skyrim is for the Nords, after all.

 

[Jeremius]

Ok your stupidity of that repeated point has finally snapped me. In a game like Skyrim, by your logic, every quest line is pointless besides the main quest line, since none of them will affect the next game. I suggest you just trade in Skyrim for something more narrow minded, leave these forums, and never return. Since it seems you believe everything about the game is pointless.

The Civil War, in my own personal opinion, is more important than any of the faction quest lines. It is the only quest line that has any permanent or long term effect on the game world. Peoples obsession with one game affecting the sequel in such away that your actions are perfectly represented and translated into the sequel is ridiculous. We've seen what happens when game developers try to do that with a series. Just look at the the Mass Effect series, there are just too many variables for your choices to really matter all that much in the larger scheme of things.

Play the game, enjoy it, and if you don't like it don't play it and just leave those of us who like it or see a point in something you don't alone to enjoy the game and discuss it as we see fit.

Yet if Bethesda makes the final decision, what point is there to actually participate, your choice is meaningless, unless they add a save import function to the next game, which won't happen. For all you know they could make it canon that no side won the war because the Thalmor attacked while the war was going on. Surprise beats planned invasion any day.

the other problem I have with the war is that both sides are correct and incorrect. it begs the question of which side is right (white) and which one is wrong (black).

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

You're absolutely correct. And the beauty of this Civil War plot in Skyrim is just how reminiscent it is to our own experiences, both of war and revolution. You can tell that they just "get" the realities of these situations, let me explain further.

I believe that Ulfric believes in what he's doing, his speech about the reasons he fights is oddly moving in that he sounds like a very passionate, sincere man. And in that sense, I see why people like him. He's brave, he's commanding, he exhibits the very qualities of defiance and audacity that could turn an ordinary English bandit into a Robin Hood, or transform a minor thief and killer into Billy The Kid.
Win or lose, he's destined to become a legend to the Nords, an almost Mythical figure of reverence.

And this is where the problems start.
His goal is to return a conquered people to their former glory, and the very subjugation of the Nords is what affords him such a dangerous level of power. Of course he maltreats different races! Of course he relegates 'inferior' races to ghettos and slums! Through him courses the accumulated bile and vindictiveness of an entire people.
He wants power and the Nords will allow this, providing he uses that power to squash those who represent their perceived oppression. Who cares what happens to the elves? Who cares if a caravan of traders were massacred? They were cats, they weren't like us.

This is where most revolutionaries fail, when you think about it.
When Robespierre stood before the guillotine with his jaw hanging off, when Gaddafi was being beaten to death in the streets, when Ceaucescu was singing the Internationale even as he was dragged off to a firing squad, they all died thinking that they were the same brave revolutionaries that they used to be.
They never have the self-awareness to acknowledge their own failings.

And the reason is that revolutions are an attempt to forge the world into a better shape, don't you think? Peace, land and bread! Liberté, égalité, fraternité!
The men behind these Civil Wars and uprisings hold these ideals close, using them to justify any brutality as a necessary evil.
Ulfric is the same, he fights because he wants to change the world to better suit his own needs, his own desires, his own ambitions.
And tell me, what happens when the world doesn't conform to his tidy little plans?
Well, what happened when reality didn't match the fantasy that Robespierre crafted? Send a few thousand to the guillotine, force the world to change.

Ulfric is the same. A mere man struggling against the randomness and unpredictability of a cruel world. We see only a sample of his bigotry and cruelty, but what lengths would he go to? What extremes would he be driven to when the pretty little world he created began to crumble around him?
Pogroms, witch-hunts, massacres.

Skyrim is for the Nords, after all.

Actually your knowledge of lore saying the Nords were conquered is flawed, the Nords were who conquered the rest of Tamriel under the leadership of Tiber Septim. The Nords created the Empire the Stormcloaks are now trying to leave.