Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

Oh, so Morrowind and Hammerfell can govern themselves but Skyrim can't? That's Racist.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." - Ulfric Stormcloak

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c

"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim." -General Tullius

The Empire/Imperial Legion classic racism right there.

 

[Lewsean]

Tell me when was the last time Skyrim was able to govern itself, united and independent? It isn't being racist, the Nords have a conflicting nature. They were split in half at the fall of the Second Empire, most likely stayed split for 465 years until Tiber united Tamriel under the Third Empire.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, none of the other Jarls would be suited for the crown on their side. It is very likely Tullius and Ulfric will die, and it is very doubtful the Moot will be able to name a successor of this new independent Skyrim. What happens when the Moot is unable to name a new King? Right now a Civil War for the throne, same thing that happened in the Second Era the province split in half, same thing that happened in the First Era with the fifty year long War of Succession. Probably also the same damn thing that was happening over in Atmora with a Civil War during the Merethic Era.

Skyrim has every right being independent, but splitting away on the brink of a second war between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion? Over the White-Gold Concordat that was poorly enforced and isn't going to remain for much longer? Stormcloaks offer a short term solution, isolation of their province and open the door to greater Thalmor espionage.

It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?

 

[Raijin]

Grab a mug of ale and let's start singing

 

[Lewsean]

Grab a mug of ale and let's start singing

Is it me or does the Age of Opression just sound more "natural" than the Imperial version?

 

[Raijin]

Is it me or does the Age of Opression just sound more "natural" than the Imperial version?

It sounds more realistic. Its the sound of freedom from the tyranny of the Empire.

 

[Raijin]

 

[LegateFasendil]

You know, the inexperience at solving life-problems is blatantly obvious on the Stormcloak side.

Life is not black and white. If you feel that way - You will always lose something.

The problem with Ulfric and you guys - There is no middle ground with you. And anyone who doesn't agree with you is beneath you.

By that right alone - You are not fit to rule.

Are you getting mad now? The overwhelming frustrations must be getting to you considering the fact that the Lore strongly disagrees with you, yet you want to pretend that what I'm saying is inconstant. You seem to be incapable of facing reality. You are so Pro Imperial/Empire that you can't even comprehend the idea that they can lose to a fight.

Actually that is your logic considering the fact that the Empire seems to believe that a province would fall so deep into barbarism and lawlessness without Imperial intervention.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c

Ah... I dunno. You yourself seem pretty upset.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Again - What is wrong with you? Hammerfell never really was an Imperial Province. The Empire lost nothing by letting them go. Besides, like Morrowind, they wanted to leave anyways. Would Ulfric let say... 'Riften' or 'Whiterun' just leave?

Lost? The Empire survived. That is what they won. They won the right to live. The Thalmor are using you to do what they cannot. Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric confirms this.

Every day the Empire lives, the Thalmor lose.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I'm starting to get a migraine from reading this inconsistent post of yours. Are you going to tell me that Hammerfell wasn't really an Imperial own province? Is that what you're trying to tell me? The Empire lost nothing by letting them go? Are you serious bro? You can't be. I may not be a General but losing an entire province is BAD NEWS and bad for the Empire as far as power and strength goes.

So you really don't understand the Lore behind Hammerfell then? That's ok, neither did I until a while ago.

You know what they say Raijin, sometimes No News is Good News.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Tell me when was the last time Skyrim was able to govern itself, united and independent? It isn't being racist, the Nords have a conflicting nature. They were split in half at the fall of the Second Empire, most likely stayed split for 465 years until Tiber united Tamriel under the Third Empire.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, none of the other Jarls would be suited for the crown on their side. It is very likely Tullius and Ulfric will die, and it is very doubtful the Moot will be able to name a successor of this new independent Skyrim. What happens when the Moot is unable to name a new King? Right now a Civil War for the throne, same thing that happened in the Second Era the province split in half, same thing that happened in the First Era with the fifty year long War of Succession. Probably also the same damn thing that was happening over in Atmora with a Civil War during the Merethic Era.

Skyrim has every right being independent, but splitting away on the brink of a second war between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion? Over the White-Gold Concordat that was poorly enforced and isn't going to remain for much longer? Stormcloaks offer a short term solution, isolation of their province and open the door to greater Thalmor espionage.

It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?

Skyrim was different. The Civilian Gov was under duress. Hammerfell and Morrowind deciding to leave was fine because their legit Gov made that choice. Skyrim was diff because the Gov was brought down by force.

It would have been irresponsible for the Empire to just pull out, esp with half the Gov still in favor of the Empire. I'm sure if the Thalmor weren't a threat Skyrim would have it's Legions back. Every Imperial Prov has Legions. This does not mean they can't be re-assigned in case of an emergency.

Not to come off as too... curt, but have Raijin and yourself actually listened to what Gen Tullius has been saying?

Did you guys come here to give speeches or actually have a discussion?

 

[LegateFasendil]

Is it me or does the Age of Opression just sound more "natural" than the Imperial version?

It sounds more realistic. Its the sound of freedom from the tyranny of the Empire.

Except it's all rubbish.

What - you think you won't be oppressed by Ulfric once he takes over? Really.

I'd rather take my chances with the Empire or Dominion than live under Ulfric's thumb. That dude just does not listen. Listening and Stormcloaks goes together like an Orc in heavy armor trying to do ballet.

He even tells you - very directly - never to question him or his LTs. Now where does he get this idea we're not supposed to run around, questioning the Gov huh?

 

[LegateFasendil]

Grab a mug of ale and let's start singing
.

And lastly, yes I've heard the video before.

Ulfric is not deserving of such a great honor.

Along with that video, they should be playing the screams in the background from all the people who died and/or were oppressed by Ulfric because he *deserves* to be High King.

With the screams getting louder and louder towards the end as they cut to his face.

 

[GeneralTullius]

Empire has my vote.

 

[Raijin]

Ah... I dunno. You yourself seem pretty upset.

Not upset at all

So you really don't understand the Lore behind Hammerfell then? That's ok, neither did I until a while ago.

You know what they say Raijin, sometimes No News is Good News.

I understand it perfectly clear

Do you?

Except it's all rubbish.

What - you think you won't be oppressed by Ulfric once he takes over? Really.

I'd rather take my chances with the Empire or Dominion than live under Ulfric's thumb. That dude just does not listen. Listening and Stormcloaks goes together like an Orc in heavy armor trying to do ballet.

He even tells you - very directly - never to question him or his LTs. Now where does he get this idea we're not supposed to run around, questioning the Gov huh?

Why would I be oppressed by Ulfric once he takes over? And really... I know you're being sarcastic and all, but the Dominion is not a wise choice to choose from, and yes. Ulfric is willing to listen. Tullius on the other hand is a warmonger who had information that could of stop the civil war, but he didn't. He kept on until the very end.

Where does he say to never question him or his LTs? Send me a link to his dialogue.

 

[Raijin]

And lastly, yes I've heard the video before.

Ulfric is not deserving of such a great honor.

Along with that video, they should be playing the screams in the background from all the people who died and/or were oppressed by Ulfric because he *deserves* to be High King.

With the screams getting louder and louder towards the end as they cut to his face.

Yes he does deserve such great honor.

 

[Raijin]

Empire has my vote.

I bet you do.....

 

[Jeremius]

I would like to reiterate my stance on this. I think that both sides of the Civil War are being stupid. I think that the Empire is not being sensitive to the desires of the Nordic people, but I also think that the Stormcloaks are being a tad short-sighted, since I believe that in the end, the next Great War will bring the same rights the Stormcloaks want, but therebels are simply impatient and want things right now. reminds of a character in the upcoming Dragon Age game (she is not about what is right, but is about what's right now).

 

[LegateFasendil]

Ah... I dunno. You yourself seem pretty upset.

Not upset at all

So you really don't understand the Lore behind Hammerfell then? That's ok, neither did I until a while ago.

You know what they say Raijin, sometimes No News is Good News.

I understand it perfectly clear

Do you?

Except it's all rubbish.

What - you think you won't be oppressed by Ulfric once he takes over? Really.

I'd rather take my chances with the Empire or Dominion than live under Ulfric's thumb. That dude just does not listen. Listening and Stormcloaks goes together like an Orc in heavy armor trying to do ballet.

He even tells you - very directly - never to question him or his LTs. Now where does he get this idea we're not supposed to run around, questioning the Gov huh?

Why would I be oppressed by Ulfric once he takes over? And really... I know you're being sarcastic and all, but the Dominion is not a wise choice to choose from, and yes. Ulfric is willing to listen. Tullius on the other hand is a warmonger who had information that could of stop the civil war, but he didn't. He kept on until the very end.

Where does he say to never question him or his LTs? Send me a link to his dialogue.

How is Gen Tullius a warmonger when it was Ulfric who keeps starting wars?

Ulfric is very oppressive. Look at his city, the lack of leadership throughout his hold, the conversations you have with him in the game... The Jarl of Riften's son thrown into prison for questioning Ulfric... Seriously this isn't that hard to see.

Sorry I don't do pm. It's in the dialogue just before the Battle of Whiterun. Somewhere around that quest. I'll try to find it.

 

[LegateFasendil]

And lastly, yes I've heard the video before.

Ulfric is not deserving of such a great honor.

Along with that video, they should be playing the screams in the background from all the people who died and/or were oppressed by Ulfric because he *deserves* to be High King.

With the screams getting louder and louder towards the end as they cut to his face.

Yes he does deserve such great honor.

But why? He's an instigator a problem causer. He's brought miser and anger to so many people, - no real solutions - much the same as the Thalmor's WGC, which TMII signed.

If Talos was made a God because of the Empire, then I would think preserving the Empire would be top priority. Ulfric goes against even Talos be trying to Destroy the Empire.

So are you putting Ulfric above Talos?

 

[LegateFasendil]

And lastly, yes I've heard the video before.
Ulfric is not deserving of such a great honor.
Along with that video, they should be playing the screams in the background from all the people who died and/or were oppressed by Ulfric because he *deserves* to be High King.
With the screams getting louder and louder towards the end as they cut to his face.

Yes he does deserve such great honor.

Also, I would like to take this time to point out you haven't answered some of my questions, you just keep putting Ulfric up on a pedestal and berading the Empire.

- For example, would Ulfric release a Skyrim Hold or some other political entity who no longer wishes to be ruled by him? Would he be gracious enough to let them go as the Empire has done?

- This is one I've asked time and time again. Never got a clear answer, why attack Whiterun? They have Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Worship Talos openly. Why do they need Ulfric? If Whiterun could accomplish this and still get along well with the Empire, why couldn't other holds / Provinces?

I would say Ulfric is simply... in this for himself. Hell, he was captured during the Great War, then was captured again at Markarth. If Ulfric can't defend himself, then how exactly is he High King material?

 

[GeneralTullius]

Empire has my vote.

I bet you do.....