Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

Ivory said: ↑

Yeah, you know all about giving up don't you?

If you're gonna try to rustle someone's jimmies, try putting some effort instead of being so petty. This is too easy.​

I seem to have already rustled your jimmies because now you're posting pl*** up for the sake of arguing, and aren't throwing relevant statements onto the table.

It's incredible the way you guys behave when you get cornered like a frighten little puppy. You bark for a while up until you start fearing for your life, and then start showing your fear aggressiveness by trying to lunge for a bite. When you do bite it isn't a nice full bite that is expected. It's all chewy and full of nerves.

And you're the last person on here who should be giving us a lecture on good behavior.

Ivory's posts are no less chewy and full of nerve than yours Raijin.

 

[Raijin]

Ivory said: ↑

Yeah, you know all about giving up don't you?​

If you're gonna try to rustle someone's jimmies, try putting some effort instead of being so petty. This is too easy.​

I seem to have already rustled your jimmies because now you're posting pl*** up for the sake of arguing, and aren't throwing relevant statements onto the table.

It's incredible the way you guys behave when you get cornered like a frighten little puppy. You bark for a while up until you start fearing for your life, and then start showing your fear aggressiveness by trying to lunge for a bite. When you do bite it isn't a nice full bite that is expected. It's all chewy and full of nerves.

And you're the last person on here who should be giving us a lecture on good behavior.

Ivory's posts are no less chewy and full of nerve than yours Raijin.

Stormcloaks and their supporters are strong and willing to fight while the Empire and their supporters surrenders in fear, and lets the Aldmeri Dominion become their new masters.

The Imperials should know their place in the packing order.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Did they have a tounge, or a Dragonborn? No. Those are two gamebreaking powers right there and the Stormcloaks have both if they win.

The Stormcloaks don't have the Dragonborn, the hero is released from both sides and will vanish, they always do.

The Empire did have a tongue, Ulfric was able to use the voice in the Great War. Notice how he was captured and tortured, so that gamebreaking power didn't do much did it?

Actually they do that's the only reason they're in Skyrim to begin with.

No they don't. The Thalmor are most likely in all provinces of the Empire, they were there prior to the great War and the White-Gold Concordat in Thalmor nests.

they were at war, of course

This was before they were at war, genius.

And the Justiciars are legally taking people hostage

Yes, but they still kidnap people without Justiciars. They use assets and agents for their illegal activities, which is majority of their work.

You think Ulfric will let a single Justiciar or Agent into Skyrim after this war? I sure don'y.

The Thalmor won't appear as Justiciars. It isn't a case about letting, they will enter the country always. Unless Ulfric closes the borders, doesn't allow merchants, travelers, and goes into a lock down where he doesn't allow people to come and go...

You have no idea about the Thalmor, arguing about them isn't your strong point.

Did you mean isn't.

So you believe it'll be hard for the Thalmor to infiltrate a country forming? Where new governments are slowly establishing, new armies are being created etc. The Vampires are doing it with Dawnguard, why can't the Thalmor?

Certainly gives them a decent incentive...

Well firstly they don't have tons of people who were tortured, the Thalmor generally kill you after they get what they want. Ulfric was allowed to escape and you freed one man.

Secondly, being tortured doesn't give them the knowledge of how the Thalmor do espionage.

Yes Actually, hes aware of it I'm pretty sure he even says so.

So you believe Ulfric is aware he's a Thalmor asset. When contact was established and he proved his worth, he knew he was helping the Thalmor in your view? Are you helping the Stormcloaks or aiding the Imperials at this point?

Thats the point they are in Skyrim Legally doing this. They're no bandits, they're Lawful-Evil i believe.

They've been in the Empire for over a hundred years illegally doing things. Kicking out the Empire in Skyrim and making the Justiciars leave, just makes the Thalmor less open about what they're up to.

It is proven in lore, not just lore but is canon. The Thalmor never need an open presence, they don't need an embassy. The Thalmor will always be present in Skyrim, Cyrodiil and other parts. Only way to remove their influence is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Stormcloaks don't have the Dragonborn, the hero is released from both sides and will vanish, they always do.

Fair enough.

The Empire did have a tongue, Ulfric was able to use the voice in the Great War. Notice how he was captured and tortured, so that gamebreaking power didn't do much did it?

Ulfric never used the Power of The Voice in the great war. He still believed in the Way of the Voice at that point. It wasnt until Markarth that he went back on it. This is what surprised Nords.

o they don't. The Thalmor are most likely in all provinces of the Empire, they were there prior to the great War and the White-Gold Concordat in Thalmor nests.

They don't value the law. My mistake. However its quite clear the only reason they aren't lynched by the Nords is because of the White Gold Concordant, which allows them to legally do what they do.

Yes, but they still kidnap people without Justiciars. They use assets and agents for their illegal activities, which is majority of their work.

Which is, again, legal under the signing of the White Gold Concordant

The Thalmor won't appear as Justiciars. It isn't a case about letting, they will enter the country always. Unless Ulfric closes the borders, doesn't allow merchants, travelers, and goes into a lock down where he doesn't allow people to come and go...

Semantics. Justiciar or not Ulfric will most likely close down the borders not allowing anyone in like you said. A bit drastic, but ultimately necessary when thinking about this kind of situation.

You have no idea about the Thalmor, arguing about them isn't your strong point.

Is it? I was arguing from a Stormcloak Standpoint, not a Thalmor one. Seems like a pretty easy solution.

So you believe it'll be hard for the Thalmor to infiltrate a country forming? Where new governments are slowly establishing, new armies are being created etc. The Vampires are doing it with Dawnguard, why can't the Thalmor?

Because Vampires are known for hiding in plain sight. That's kind of their thing. Also they aren't coming from another country they've been in Skyrim for ages.

Well firstly they don't have tons of people who were tortured, the Thalmor generally kill you after they get what they want.

Yes. this is true. This is why the citizens of Skyrim are all up in arms about it, while the citizens of the Empire do... Jack plops.

Ulfric was allowed to escape

I'm Aware.

and you freed one man.

Actually I freed a whole prison full of people from multiple races.

Secondly, being tortured doesn't give them the knowledge of how the Thalmor do espionage.

Definitely gives them a reason to fight.

So you believe Ulfric is aware he's a Thalmor asset.

Yes

When contact was established and he proved his worth, he knew he was helping the Thalmor in your view?

Yes

Are you helping the Stormcloaks or aiding the Imperials at this point?

The Stormcloaks. Your not making me believe your side is right here. Ulfric was aware he was being used. He uses this to his advantage.

It is proven in lore, not just lore but is canon. The Thalmor never need an open presence, they don't need an embassy.

Even though they have an established embassy in every province theyre allowed in.

The Thalmor will always be present in Skyrim, Cyrodiil and other parts.

This is not true. Like Ive said the only thing stopping the Nords from gathering together and completely destroying the Thalmor presence in Skyrim is The Empire.

Only way to remove their influence is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle.

Not entirely true. This is the only way to kill them off completely. You can keep them away from your Country long enough to form a force. Hammerfell did it.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

This was before they were at war, genius.

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Only way to remove their influence is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle.

If only it would be just one head that would need to be removed... the High Elves always were arrogant, I honestly don't know how they'll get rid of the Thalmor ideology. Unless of course most of the generation influenced by them dies off with the next war.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

This was before they were at war, genius.

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

He's not kidding. You're actually a HUGE genius if you doubt anything he's said about the Thalmor so far is true.
(Sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious)

 

[LegateFasendil]

DrunkenMage said: ↑

This was before they were at war, genius.​

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

While Mage and I have minor differences in lore interpretation, he has been here for a very long time and is the senior Imperial on this forum I believe. His arguments are all at least backed by lore and he deserves better than to be called an 'asshole' and told to dumb down what he's saying.

I don't think calling him out like this is going to get you anything but LOTS more resistance. Hehehe I've seen it before.

 

[LegateFasendil]

DrunkenMage said: ↑

Only way to remove their influence is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle.​

If only it would be just one head that would need to be removed... the High Elves always were arrogant, I honestly don't know how they'll get rid of the Thalmor ideology. Unless of course most of the generation influenced by them dies off with the next war.

There's nothing to remove. That's just how they are - And with some justification.

No, no, the problem is the animal was caged for far too long. This is just the Elves showing off and having fun, like how Tiber Septim had fun with his Numidium instead of seeking a peaceful resolution... or even trying for one but I digress. They'll calm down eventually.... maybe.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric never used the Power of The Voice in the great war. He still believed in the Way of the Voice at that point. It wasnt until Markarth that he went back on it. This is what surprised Nords.

Source he never used it during the war? Ulfric won't constantly use it, he himself admits he believes in the way of the voice and will only use the thu'um rarely.

One person with the Thu'um won't harm Thalmor espionage.

They don't value the law. My mistake. However its quite clear the only reason they aren't lynched by the Nords is because of the White Gold Concordant, which allows them to legally do what they do.

The White-Gold Concordat allows Justiciars to arrest Talos worshipers. They do other things in secret.

Which is, again, legal under the signing of the White Gold Concordant

It isn't legal, which is why they use assets and agents in those cases.

Semantics. Justiciar or not Ulfric will most likely close down the borders not allowing anyone in like you said. A bit drastic, but ultimately necessary when thinking about this kind of situation.

So the Stormcloak solution is to shut down the borders? Well you've just proved the Empire is the best way to go, since Skyrim can't afford to shut down the borders, it requires all the traveling merchants and trade convoys from provinces.

Stormcloaks are obviously unable to deal with the Thalmor threat.

Is it? I was arguing from a Stormcloak Standpoint, not a Thalmor one. Seems like a pretty easy solution.

Well if your only solution is to shut down the borders, you've just made rebuilding Skyrim an impossibility. Therefor the Stormcloaks are dooming themselves.

Because Vampires are known for hiding in plain sight. That's kind of their thing. Also they aren't coming from another country they've been in Skyrim for ages.

The Thalmor hide in plain sight. They're not only Altmer, and they've been doing this kind of thing for a hundred years. The Thalmor have been in Skyrim for ages, they've had nests in the Empire for a very long time.

It doesn't matter if some come from another country, they can establish themselves. There is an Altmer in Windhelm who recently arrived from Summerset Isle, funny how she was able to enter the city easily for being a foreigner. She is bribing the guards most likely, if she can do it, others can.

Yes. this is true. This is why the citizens of Skyrim are all up in arms about it, while the citizens of the Empire do... Jack pl***.

The Empire plays the game, what they do against the Thalmor isn't out in the open. The Thalmor and Empire have been fighting in the shadows for a long time.

Actually I freed a whole prison full of people from multiple races.

Yeah, funny how none of them give you anything useful about the Thalmor. Your logic was if they're tortured, they know all about the Thalmor's methods and espionage work.

Definitely gives them a reason to fight.

Fight what? There isn't an army on the battlefield. A Thalmor asset and agent can be anyone.

The Stormcloaks. Your not making me believe your side is right here. Ulfric was aware he was being used. He uses this to his advantage.

Your making me believe the Stormcloaks are worse off than I could imagine. Where is your source Ulfric was aware or uses this to his advantage?

Because every Stormcloak argues Ulfric wasn't aware he was being used, wasn't aware he was aiding the Thalmor when contact was established with him. So if you have evidence otherwise, please share it. Because you will give the Imperial side the largest pro argument there could be.

Even though they have an established embassy in every province theyre allowed in.

The embassy came with the White-Gold Concordat. Prior to the White-Gold Concordat, the Thalmor didn't have an embassy. They don't need one, they do their espionage work from anywhere.

This is not true. Like Ive said the only thing stopping the Nords from gathering together and completely destroying the Thalmor presence in Skyrim is The Empire.

Gathering together to destroy what? There isn't an army, there won't be a bunch of Thalmor guys standing around. Thalmor presence will always be there, they have many hidden assets and agents. Plenty of them would be Nords too.

Not entirely true. This is the only way to kill them off completely. You can keep them away from your Country long enough to form a force. Hammerfell did it.

Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri Dominion's army. They weren't fighting the espionage world of the Thalmor, they would still have eyes and ears within Hammerfell.

How do you keep them away? The Stormcloaks don't have anything like the Penitus Oculatus that the Empire has. How would you know what to even keep away, they've been in parts of the Empire for a hundred years.

 

[DrunkenMage]

This was before they were at war, genius.

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

I can't get it across much clearer than it has. Your continued ignorance of the Thalmor gets worse when you attempt to debate about something you have no knowledge of.

I'll be a condescending asshole, everytime you post something you have no idea about and try bluff it as fact.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

This was before they were at war, genius.

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

He's not kidding. You're actually a HUGE genius if you doubt anything he's said about the Thalmor so far is true.
(Sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious)

it was, pretty obvious thanks.

 

[Raijin]

The Stormcloaks don't have the Dragonborn, the hero is released from both sides and will vanish, they always do.

This was nothing but game mechanics setup for the player to do other things like participating in DLC events. I could not possibly believe for a moment that General Tullius or Ulfric Stormcloak would dismiss the Dragonborn from their services after the civil war when the return of the Great war is just around the corner. It's ludicrous and It doesn't make any sense at all to do this. The Dragonborn is their champion and their key element for winning the war against the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[Ivory]

The Dragonborn is their champion and their key element for winning the war against the Aldmeri Dominion.

Gotta disagree. What about the Nerevarine? Where was the incarnation of a God-like Hero during the events of Oblivion? Or the eruption of Red Mountain? Gone. Who helped save the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis? A single mortal with no real powers and stood on the sidelines and watched as Martin Septim sacrificed himself and defeated Dagon. Vanished soon after, suspected to have become Sheogorath.

One single Mortal Dragonborn while very, very powerful, is not a victory crutch. Any dragonborn could have completed the prophecy and many more could fail trying. Miraak himself could have defeated Alduin but chose against that path.

Who defeated the morale of the Snow Elven people? a Child who was able to slay the Prince after her mother was killed most likely because the Prince dropped his guard.

Many of these people, powerful and naught, can be a turn of events. The Dragonborn is not a God or all powerful.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Source he never used it during the war? Ulfric won't constantly use it, he himself admits he believes in the way of the voice and will only use the thu'um rarely.

You just... You just gave me my source there. You just literally summed up why he wouldn't have used it. I'm also quite positive if he did he wouldn't have been captured and we would have a ver different Ulfric Stormcloak in charge.

One person with the Thu'um won't harm Thalmor espionage.

Really? I seem to have a memory of one person with the thu'um (the Dragonborn) being able to wipe out anything (Thalmor Especially) in his/her path with the same shouts Ulfric uses. Lets reflect on those shall we:
Ice Form
Unrelenting Force
Disarm
Those three shouts are perfectly capable of flooring an entire line of Dominion Soldiers. However you have the floor with espionage you sneaky, sneaky Imperial Bastards

The White-Gold Concordat allows Justiciars to arrest Talos worshipers. They do other things in secret.

Thank you for proving to me what Ive been trying to say.

It isn't legal, which is why they use assets and agents in those cases.

evidence? I mean where does it say anywhere that Assets do that sort of thing. And Agents are permitted in Skyrim which also means its technically not illegal

So the Stormcloak solution is to shut down the borders? Well you've just proved the Empire is the best way to go, since Skyrim can't afford to shut down the borders, it requires all the traveling merchants and trade convoys from provinces.

It would definitely be the easiest option

Stormcloaks are obviously unable to deal with the Thalmor threat.

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure theyre doing a better job then your crippled Empire.

Well if your only solution is to shut down the borders, you've just made rebuilding Skyrim an impossibility. Therefor the Stormcloaks are dooming themselves.

Not exactly my solution. Heres what should happen: Distribute Notes of citizenship to anybody legally living in Skyrim. This allows them to enter and leave Skyrim whenever they want, meaning they can pickup trade, war supplies etc., etc. without having to worry about that pesky little border closing. however refuse foreigner entry of any kind from Elsweyr, Valenwood, or Summerset.

The Thalmor hide in plain sight. They're not only Altmer, and they've been doing this kind of thing for a hundred years.

They seem to be pretty direct about spreading their hateful doctrine.

The Thalmor have been in Skyrim for ages, they've had nests in the Empire for a very long time.

Where has this been said anywhere in game.

It doesn't matter if some come from another country, they can establish themselves. There is an Altmer in Windhelm who recently arrived from Summerset Isle, funny how she was able to enter the city easily for being a foreigner. She is bribing the guards most likely, if she can do it, others can.

The Empire plays the game, what they do against the Thalmor isn't out in the open. The Thalmor and Empire have been fighting in the shadows for a long time.

Well it should be out in the open otherwise they deter a lot of people from their cause.

Yeah, funny how none of them give you anything useful about the Thalmor.

Yeah, funny how General Tulius knew he was kidnapped illegally and did nothing but send a note to his rich, snotty, supporters in Whiterun.

Your logic was if they're tortured, they know all about the Thalmor's methods and espionage work.

I said it gave them incentive and it definitely gives them incentive. I certainly gave the Stormcloaks some fresh recruits.

Fight what? There isn't an army on the battlefield. A Thalmor asset and agent can be anyone.

Root em' out kill em' all.

Your making me believe the Stormcloaks are worse off than I could imagine.

Where is your source Ulfric was aware or uses this to his advantage?

Because every Stormcloak argues Ulfric wasn't aware he was being used, wasn't aware he was aiding the Thalmor when contact was established with him. So if you have evidence otherwise, please share it. Because you will give the Imperial side the largest pro argument there could be.

Yknow what. You're right on that regard. I don't know what I was thinking there. Just Theories spewing out of my insane, fluffed up, mind.

The embassy came with the White-Gold Concordat. Prior to the White-Gold Concordat, the Thalmor didn't have an embassy. They don't need one, they do their espionage work from anywhere.

Because thats extremely organized and well thought out. "Lets do our Espionage work from an unprotected cave or, well, anywhere!" "Great Idea Thalendil!" I wonder how well that would work with those High Society Prickmer "Oh my! A Spider! Kill it! Kill it Now!"

Gathering together to destroy what?

The Embassy. Their HQ in Solitude. fluffin anywhere they are.

Thalmor presence will always be there, they have many hidden assets and agents. Plenty of them would be Nords too.

Im sorry, heh, did you just say there would be Nord Thalmor Agents. Well despite the fact that that goes against everything the Thalmor Stands for I doubt any Nord would want to stay anywhere within the Thalmor

Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri Dominion's army. They weren't fighting the espionage world of the Thalmor, they would still have eyes and ears within Hammerfell.

So will the Stormcloaks And they excel in that kind of thing. You think the Thalmor is going to take being kicked out lightly?

How do you keep them away? The Stormcloaks don't have anything like the Penitus Oculatus that the Empire has. How would you know what to even keep away, they've been in parts of the Empire for a hundred years.

Again, I need a quote or something telling me otherwise.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

This was before they were at war, genius.

Please, continue to be a condescending asshole. It'll definitely get your point across much smoother.

I can't get it across much clearer than it has. Your continued ignorance of the Thalmor gets worse when you attempt to debate about something you have no knowledge of.

I'll be a condescending asshole, everytime you post something you have no idea about and try bluff it as fact.

Well you know if you're going to contradict me you don't have to act like an infinitely more superior Twat. Although I guess that's what you Imperials are best out.

 

[Ivory]

Im sorry, heh, did you just say there would be Nord Thalmor Agents. Well despite the fact that that goes against everything the Thalmor Stands for I doubt any Nord would want to stay anywhere within the Thalmor

I'm sorry but I've given you this evidence before. Let me remind you of him.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur

And Don't say "He's a begger" or "He's not a real nord"

He's a Nord. By blood and by heritage. And a Thalmor Informant. By Choice and Greed.

 

[DrunkenMage]

This was nothing but game mechanics setup for the player to do other things like participating in DLC events. I could not possibly believe for a moment that General Tullius or Ulfric Stormcloak would dismiss the Dragonborn from their services after the civil war when the return of the Great war is just around the corner. It's ludicrous and It doesn't make any sense at all to do this. The Dragonborn is their champion and their key element for winning the war against the Aldmeri Dominion.

The Dragonborn will not stay. It wasn't a game mechanic, it was dialogue. Game mechanics is like four soldiers attacking a fort, but would really be a lot more.

You can't simply chalk up dialogue or lore as "Nothing but game mechanics"

Both sides release the Dragonborn, the Gods have need of him/her elsewhere.

You just... You just gave me my source there. You just literally summed up why he wouldn't have used it. I'm also quite positive if he did he wouldn't have been captured and we would have a ver different Ulfric Stormcloak in charge.

Really? Yet throughout Skyrim's history, Tongues have been killed easily and have been defeated in the past. More powerful Thu'um users than Ulfric.

I just destroyed your argument there, Ulfric won't use the Thu'um lightly. If he used it taking Markarth, he would have used it at some point during the Great War. It was what made him leave the Greybeards in the first place.

Really? I seem to have a memory of one person with the thu'um (the Dragonborn) being able to wipe out anything (Thalmor Especially) in his/her path with the same shouts Ulfric uses. Lets reflect on those shall we:
Ice Form
Unrelenting Force
Disarm
Those three shouts are perfectly capable of flooring an entire line of Dominion Soldiers. However you have the floor with espionage you sneaky, sneaky Imperial Bastards

The Last Dragonborn isn't a good example, since he/she is is on a driven path set by Akatosh. They also vanish after the events in Skyrim.

Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor in the past, he was captured by General Tullius in an ambush. If Ulfric can 'pwn' anything in his path, entire lines of soldiers. Why has he been captured twice during war?

The Thalmor aren't going to send an army, they'll disrupt Skyrim in other ways.

evidence? I mean where does it say anywhere that Assets do that sort of thing. And Agents are permitted in Skyrim which also means its technically not illegal

I'm not talking about Justiciar Agents. We're on about espionage, the undercover agents and various assets who conduct the illegal activities. The evidence is in what we know and see about the Thalmor, hence why they used a Khajiit to try and assassinate you.

How isn't it illegal? When the Thalmor resort to using their own execution squads they have Notes saying if caught by the local authorities they're unable to be helped. Imperial soldiers will even attack them if spotted.

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure theyre doing a better job then your crippled Empire.

They're doing such an amazing job, that they're so clueless and ignorant about the threat they face.

What job are the Stormcloaks doing? I haven't seen anything from them that they're preparing to deal with the Thalmor espionage.

Not exactly my solution. Heres what should happen: Distribute Notes of citizenship to anybody legally living in Skyrim. This allows them to enter and leave Skyrim whenever they want, meaning they can pickup trade, war supplies etc., etc. without having to worry about that pesky little border closing. however refuse foreigner entry of any kind from Elsweyr, Valenwood, or Summerset.

Yeah that will never happen. Besides, wouldn't the Thalmor merely just enter Skyrim via Cyrodiil, High Rock and Hammerfell?

Get it into your head. The Thalmor aren't just Altmer, their agents and assets are of all races.

They seem to be pretty direct about spreading their hateful doctrine.

The Justiciars yeah, because they want to make people rise up against the Empire. So the Thalmor are pretty open about spreading doctrines, and making the Empire look as bad as possible every chance they get.

Where has this been said anywhere in game.

This is lore out of game. Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire for a hundred and fifty years, you really think they'd skip Skyrim? They'd have their nests and sympathizers around there.

Well it should be out in the open otherwise they deter a lot of people from their cause.

Yeah totally, the Empire should be all open about their secret operations, expose all the secrets of the Imperium, full on show and tell naming their contacts and hidden agents.

Maybe some high speed cart chases 007 style.

Because in the world of spies and espionage, being open about it makes it so much harder to be caught!

Yeah, funny how General Tulius knew he was kidnapped illegally and did nothing but send a note to his rich, snotty, supporters in Whiterun.

Actually it was those rich, snotty, supporters in Whiterun who were actually looking for him due to being concerned. Hence the letter from Tullius because they inquired about his location.

He wasn't kidnapped illegally, he was a Talos worshiper and off to join the Stormcloaks. Besides Tullius can have him released, except there is a bug that doesn't it to work unless on PC version.

I said it gave them incentive and it definitely gives them incentive. I certainly gave the Stormcloaks some fresh recruits.

Yeah, because that is the Thalmor objective. Indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks, sending Ulfric recruits is part of that aid.

You're being herded and acting like it was your own choice.

Root em' out kill em' all.

Good luck on that... You really have no idea what threat the Thalmor represent.

Because thats extremely organized and well thought out. "Lets do our Espionage work from an unprotected cave or, well, anywhere!" "Great Idea Thalendil!" I wonder how well that would work with those High Society Prickmer "Oh my! A Spider! Kill it! Kill it Now!"

Who says they'd be in a cave? Is the world of espionage a new concept to you?

They're not going to have a single location. You're looking at things like dead drops, contacts, handlers, two people talking in a bar etc.

The Embassy. Their HQ in Solitude. fluffin anywhere they are.

They won't be there. Their HQ in Solitude is empty, unused, and their embassy can be left behind.

There won't be a base.

Im sorry, heh, did you just say there would be Nord Thalmor Agents. Well despite the fact that that goes against everything the Thalmor Stands for I doubt any Nord would want to stay anywhere within the Thalmor

We're not talking about Justiciars. Agents can be anyone, assets too. You will always get Thalmor sympathizers, same thing was with the Nazi's in WW2. People sided with them and sold out their own neighbors etc.

Not every Nord is like Rikke or Ulfric. Not every Nord values honor or loyalty. You're generalizing a race, which is stupid.

So will the Stormcloaks And they excel in that kind of thing. You think the Thalmor is going to take being kicked out lightly?

There isn't going to be an army, understand that, accept that. Learn how espionage works before replying again.

Again, I need a quote or something telling me otherwise.

Telling you what? That the Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire for a very long time?

Here is a quote relating to Cyrodiil.

There are Thalmor nests and sympathizers throughout Cyrodiil, and the Penitus Oculatus keeps undercover agents in at least one of them. p.152

Skyrim would have their own nests and we have already seen some sympathizers in-game. Thalmor are everywhere.

If only it would be just one head that would need to be removed... the High Elves always were arrogant, I honestly don't know how they'll get rid of the Thalmor ideology. Unless of course most of the generation influenced by them dies off with the next war.

The heads will be the Thalmor leadership, their ideology will never cease but their power and influence can. Obviously they'll pop up again sometime in the future, but they'll be a minority for sometime.

 

[Vatonage]

The Dragonborn will not stay. It wasn't a game mechanic, it was dialogue. Game mechanics is like four soldiers attacking a fort, but would really be a lot more.

You can't simply chalk up dialogue or lore as "Nothing but game mechanics"

Both sides release the Dragonborn, the Gods have need of him/her elsewhere.



Really? Yet throughout Skyrim's history, Tongues have been killed easily and have been defeated in the past. More powerful Thu'um users than Ulfric.

I just destroyed your argument there, Ulfric won't use the Thu'um lightly. If he used it taking Markarth, he would have used it at some point during the Great War. It was what made him leave the Greybeards in the first place.



The Last Dragonborn isn't a good example, since he/she is is on a driven path set by Akatosh. They also vanish after the events in Skyrim.

Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor in the past, he was captured by General Tullius in an ambush. If Ulfric can 'pwn' anything in his path, entire lines of soldiers. Why has he been captured twice during war?

The Thalmor aren't going to send an army, they'll disrupt Skyrim in other ways.



I'm not talking about Justiciar Agents. We're on about espionage, the undercover agents and various assets who conduct the illegal activities. The evidence is in what we know and see about the Thalmor, hence why they used a Khajiit to try and assassinate you.

How isn't it illegal? When the Thalmor resort to using their own execution squads they have Notes saying if caught by the local authorities they're unable to be helped. Imperial soldiers will even attack them if spotted.



They're doing such an amazing job, that they're so clueless and ignorant about the threat they face.

What job are the Stormcloaks doing? I haven't seen anything from them that they're preparing to deal with the Thalmor espionage.



Yeah that will never happen. Besides, wouldn't the Thalmor merely just enter Skyrim via Cyrodiil, High Rock and Hammerfell?

Get it into your head. The Thalmor aren't just Altmer, their agents and assets are of all races.



The Justiciars yeah, because they want to make people rise up against the Empire. So the Thalmor are pretty open about spreading doctrines, and making the Empire look as bad as possible every chance they get.



This is lore out of game. Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire for a hundred and fifty years, you really think they'd skip Skyrim? They'd have their nests and sympathizers around there.



Yeah totally, the Empire should be all open about their secret operations, expose all the secrets of the Imperium, full on show and tell naming their contacts and hidden agents.

Maybe some high speed cart chases 007 style.

Because in the world of spies and espionage, being open about it makes it so much harder to be caught!



Actually it was those rich, snotty, supporters in Whiterun who were actually looking for him due to being concerned. Hence the letter from Tullius because they inquired about his location.

He wasn't kidnapped illegally, he was a Talos worshiper and off to join the Stormcloaks. Besides Tullius can have him released, except there is a bug that doesn't it to work unless on PC version.



Yeah, because that is the Thalmor objective. Indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks, sending Ulfric recruits is part of that aid.

You're being herded and acting like it was your own choice.



Good luck on that... You really have no idea what threat the Thalmor represent.



Who says they'd be in a cave? Is the world of espionage a new concept to you?

They're not going to have a single location. You're looking at things like dead drops, contacts, handlers, two people talking in a bar etc.



They won't be there. Their HQ in Solitude is empty, unused, and their embassy can be left behind.

There won't be a base.




We're not talking about Justiciars. Agents can be anyone, assets too. You will always get Thalmor sympathizers, same thing was with the Nazi's in WW2. People sided with them and sold out their own neighbors etc.

Not every Nord is like Rikke or Ulfric. Not every Nord values honor or loyalty. You're generalizing a race, which is stupid.




There isn't going to be an army, understand that, accept that. Learn how espionage works before replying again.



Telling you what? That the Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire for a very long time?

Here is a quote relating to Cyrodiil.

There are Thalmor nests and sympathizers throughout Cyrodiil, and the Penitus Oculatus keeps undercover agents in at least one of them. p.152

Skyrim would have their own nests and we have already seen some sympathizers in-game. Thalmor are everywhere.



The heads will be the Thalmor leadership, their ideology will never cease but their power and influence can. Obviously they'll pop up again sometime in the future, but they'll be a minority for sometime.

.....

You've convinced me. I switch flags.

I mainly just agreed with the Stormcloaks because Skyrim was my first Elder Scrolls game and Ulfric is just cooler than Tullius, but the Empire is admittedly a better solution than a possibility of weakness from Stormcloak rule, allowing the Aldmeri Dominion to possibly take control of Skyrim.

If only the Stormcloaks had more resources.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Telling you what? That the Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire for a very long time?

Here is a quote relating to Cyrodiil.

There are Thalmor nests and sympathizers throughout Cyrodiil, and the Penitus Oculatus keeps undercover agents in at least one of them. p.152

Skyrim would have their own nests and we have already seen some sympathizers in-game. Thalmor are everywhere.

Adding to myself here.

They are not fools. They knew early on that the Blades were an enemy. So they hunted them throughout the Great War. Some were killed defending their Temples, others as they slept in their hideaways, alone. Some fought, some ran, some hid. But the Thalmor found them all. - Rise and Fall of the Blades

So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life. My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead. - Flight from the Thalmor

"No, you can't ever be too paranoid where the Thalmor is concerned." - Malborn