Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Of course Not. They just have a Tongue, A Thousand Warriors sworn to protect Ulfric and possibly The Dragonborn. Thats clearly not enough.

The Empire had five provinces, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus, thousands upon thousands of soldiers and militia. Then the Thalmor arrived.

So you tell me, does an isolated and weakened Skyrim have enough?

Did they have a tounge, or a Dragonborn? No. Those are two gamebreaking powers right there and the Stormcloaks have both if they win.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Thalmor do not care about what is legal or not.

Actually they do that's the only reason they're in Skyrim to begin with.

They didn't have a legal excuse while they were infiltrating parts of the Empire, funding insurgents and doing various espionage work.

they were at war, of course

Majority of what the Thalmor do is undercover, the Justiciars are just for show. The Thalmor are very skilled at cloak and dagger operations.

And the Justiciars are legally taking people hostage

How exactly won't it be easy while Ulfric is in power? Skyrim is weakened after the Civil War, they are starting new governments, creating new armies and they're not protected by the counter intelligence groups in the Empire.

You think Ulfric will let a single Justiciar or Agent into Skyrim after this war? I sure don'y.

A country forming is the best environment.

Did you mean isn't.

Because getting tortured gives you the knowledge of their methods, their contacts, their agents, their plans etc?

Certainly gives them a decent incentive...

The Thalmor have been doing this for a long time, they're not exactly going to slip you their evil plans while you're getting smacked around. Ulfric got tortured, does that mean he knows he was allowed to escape and was part of their plan to weaken the Empire? Probably not.

Yes Actually, hes aware of it I'm pretty sure he even says so.

The Thalmor prison isn't a secret. The Thalmor don't set up giant bases when they want to infiltrate. There isn't going to be a fort with a large sign saying "Nothing suspicious going on here"

Thats the point they are in Skyrim Legally doing this. They're no bandits, they're Lawful-Evil i believe.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They're only allowed in Skyrim because of the lawful White Gold Concordant in the first place. Am I wrong or...?

Very wrong. The Thalmor are the most elite in spying and espionage. They were able to take down the Blades themselves and as I've said in many posts before, they can have spies of any race and culture, through sheer blind loyalty, faith, will, and even Blackmail.

The Thalmor would have a field day with the Mess skyrim would be in without the Empire to protect it.

Actually the White Gold Concordant, that your Emperor signed, (for the greater good of everyone, of course.) allows them to walk around, kidnap people and stamp out Talos Worship.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Of course Not. They just have a Tongue, A Thousand Warriors sworn to protect Ulfric and possibly The Dragonborn. Thats clearly not enough.

The Empire had five provinces, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus, thousands upon thousands of soldiers and militia. Then the Thalmor arrived.

So you tell me, does an isolated and weakened Skyrim have enough?

Not to mention Tiber Septim had many provinces under his command, and the Voice and even he didn't tangle with Black Marsh. Dragonborn are not all powerful. One little man with the Voice, a few lets say "thousand" soldiers and even the Dragonborn would not be able to get to summerset isles at all when there is war.

Talos lost the Voice when an Unnamed assassin slit his throat. Not to mention that The Altmeri Navy was quite strong. This is why he used the Numidium

 

[Ivory]

Actually the White Gold Concordant, that your Emperor signed, (for the greater good of everyone, of course.) allows them to walk around, kidnap people and stamp out Talos Worship.

Because you know, countries don't spy, plot and kidnap people all the time because law says they can't right? The Thalmor would totally leave Skyrim alone with no spies, guerrilla tactics and such right? They'd fight honorably, face to face with their enemies and not lie about bringing the twin moons back, or slaughter many Bosmer (who are in their alliance btw) to gain power.


Yup. A Power like that totally respects your Nordic independence.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Actually the White Gold Concordant, that your Emperor signed, (for the greater good of everyone, of course.) allows them to walk around, kidnap people and stamp out Talos Worship.

Because you know, countries don't spy, plot and kidnap people all the time because law says they can't right? The Thalmor would totally leave Skyrim alone with no spies, guerrilla tactics and such right? They'd fight honorably, face to face with their enemies and not lie about bringing the twin moons back, or slaughter many Bosmer (who are in their alliance btw) to gain power.


Yup. A Power like that totally respects your Nordic independence.

Of course they don't respect us but it'll be harder for them to do anything from outside the law.

 

[Ivory]

Of course they don't respect us but it'll be harder for them to do anything from outside the law.

I give up.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Ivory said: ↑

Mikulas Black-Blade said: ↑

Actually the White Gold Concordant, that your Emperor signed, (for the greater good of everyone, of course.) allows them to walk around, kidnap people and stamp out Talos Worship.​

Because you know, countries don't spy, plot and kidnap people all the time because law says they can't right? The Thalmor would totally leave Skyrim alone with no spies, guerrilla tactics and such right? They'd fight honorably, face to face with their enemies and not lie about bringing the twin moons back, or slaughter many Bosmer (who are in their alliance btw) to gain power.


Yup. A Power like that totally respects your Nordic independence.​

Of course they don't respect us but it'll be harder for them to do anything from outside the law.

Hehehe Ivory


Ok. I keep trying to leave but the further you guys sink into Oblivion, the more I find myself coming back. XD

So if something like the Thalmor refuse to respect Imperial law, what makes you so confident they'll respect the Nords? Will Elenwen jump in bed with Ulfric's administration, absolutely. She seems ready to sign a deal with Ulfric at Season Unending.

But can you trust her... Hellllllll no. And that's another thing that drove me away from the Stormcloaks because like... the Empire is one thing but what if Ulric did make a deal with her? To me that would be significantly more frightening than maybe running into the Thalmor every once in a while on the street out in the open.

I mean, I guess the Imperials made a deal with the Dominion too, but the Thalmor weren't always able to do the things they do now. And judging by that Dossier I don't think Ulfric has to do anything, the Thalmor will always be one step ahead of him. At least an Imperial victory will derail the Thalmor's long term goals for Skyrim. Which really, is important because Elves think in long terms.

 

[Vatonage]

Hehehe Ivory


Ok. I keep trying to leave but the further you guys sink into Oblivion, the more I find myself coming back. XD

So if something like the Thalmor refuse to respect Imperial law, what makes you so confident they'll respect the Nords? Will Elenwen jump in bed with Ulfric's administration, absolutely. She seems ready to sign a deal with Ulfric at Season Unending.

But can you trust her... Hellllllll no. And that's another thing that drove me away from the Stormcloaks because like... the Empire is one thing but what if Ulric did make a deal with her? To me that would be significantly more frightening than maybe running into the Thalmor every once in a while on the street out in the open.

I mean, I guess the Imperials made a deal with the Dominion too, but the Thalmor weren't always able to do the things they do now. And judging by that Dossier I don't think Ulfric has to do anything, the Thalmor will always be one step ahead of him. At least an Imperial victory will derail the Thalmor's long term goals for Skyrim. Which really, is important because Elves think in long terms.

So this seemingly gray civil war really has a black and white overarching conflict?

How ironic.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

oH DEFINITELY THATS DEFINIT

Of course they don't respect us but it'll be harder for them to do anything from outside the law.

I give up.

Oh definitely. That's definitely the stupidest thing anyone's ever said. . Really? are you really that unwilling to continue your argument, because its so weak, that you've resorted to insults. DrunkenMage's Insults no less. Pitiful.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

So if something like the Thalmor refuse to respect Imperial law, what makes you so confident they'll respect the Nords?

They won't. I never said they would. All I've said was that it will be much harder for them to act outside the law while Ulfric is in power.

Will Elenwen jump in bed with Ulfric's administration, absolutely.

Ulfric Hates Elenwen. With a passion. He'd never allow her to jump in bed with his administration.

She seems ready to sign a deal with Ulfric at Season Unending.

Only because you forced him to accept it.

But can you trust her... Hellllllll no. And that's another thing that drove me away from the Stormcloaks because like... the Empire is one thing but what if Ulric did make a deal with her?

Would never happen, but, okay.

To me that would be significantly more frightening than maybe running into the Thalmor every once in a while on the street out in the open.

I like to do a bit more than "run into them" if you know what I mean?. But in all seriousness, it wouldn't happen. Things can't get much worse from where they are now.

I mean, I guess the Imperials made a deal with the Dominion too...

You mean completely bent knee, yep, they did that.

...but the Thalmor weren't always able to do the things they do now. And judging by that Dossier I don't think Ulfric has to do anything, the Thalmor will always be one step ahead of him.

They have no real control over him. All they have is the chance is that what he does hinders the Empire in some way.

At least an Imperial victory will derail the Thalmor's long term goals for Skyrim. Which really, is important because Elves think in long terms.

Would it? They've been taking it in the ass from the Thalmor and they got their ass kicked in the Great War. What makes you think that they, an even weaker Empire to the one prior to that of The Great War, have any chance, at all?[/quote]

 

[LegateFasendil]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

I mean, I guess the Imperials made a deal with the Dominion too...​

You mean completely bent knee, yep, they did that.

lolz. So ok. I guess you don't believe in the concept of surrender either right? Like that Jeremius character. *I think*

What if surrender is the logical outcome of a situation?

There's only maybe one or two ways to not ever have to surrender (which I won't bother you guys with the details) however in some situations the only move you can make is to surrender.

Ulfric surrendered, twice to the Thalmor (or because of them) and once to the Empire. And he took 'it' in the arse when Elenwen broke him too.

I mean seriously. And in surrendering the Empire accomplished a lot more than Ulfric.

 

[LegateFasendil]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

At least an Imperial victory will derail the Thalmor's long term goals for Skyrim. Which really, is important because Elves think in long terms.​

Would it? They've been taking it in the ass from the Thalmor and they got their ass kicked in the Great War. What makes you think that they, an even weaker Empire to the one prior to that of The Great War, have any chance, at all?[/

Because the Thalmor want the Empire dead and want Ulfric alive. They want Empire dead enough to go to all this trouble... they need the Empire to die, which is why they're preserving Ulfric.

That's the only reason I need to support the Empire. Freedom, Nords, Talos, WGC... the rest is just distraction.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

I mean, I guess the Imperials made a deal with the Dominion too...​

You mean completely bent knee, yep, they did that.

lolz. So ok. I guess you don't believe in the concept of surrender either right? Like that Jeremius character. *I think*

What if surrender is the logical outcome of a situation?

There's only maybe one or two ways to not ever have to surrender (which I won't bother you guys with the details) however in some situations the only move you can make is to surrender.

Ulfric surrendered, twice to the Thalmor (or because of them) and once to the Empire. And he took 'it' in the arse when Elenwen broke him too.

I mean seriously. And in surrendering the Empire accomplished a lot more than Ulfric.

I'm not saying it was a bad choice, but, maybe one that's a tad too rushed. I mean its clear that Cyrodiil got the better end of the deal here. They were easily able to give up Talos as they have a much more open, cosmopolitan view on life. Skyrim and Hammerfell, heh, not so much.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

At least an Imperial victory will derail the Thalmor's long term goals for Skyrim. Which really, is important because Elves think in long terms.​

Would it? They've been taking it in the ass from the Thalmor and they got their ass kicked in the Great War. What makes you think that they, an even weaker Empire to the one prior to that of The Great War, have any chance, at all?[/

Because the Thalmor want the Empire dead and want Ulfric alive. They want Empire dead enough to go to all this trouble... they need the Empire to die, which is why they're preserving Ulfric.

That's the only reason I need to support the Empire. Freedom, Nords, Talos, WGC... the rest is just distraction.

They definitely don't want him alive. True, They wan't him alive long enough to weaken the Empire, but, Ulfric Stormcloak is a very powerful, very influential character to the Nords, one who despises the Dominion and wants them to all die. He's definitely not someone the Thalmor wan't to be alive when the War is over.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

lolz. So ok. I guess you don't believe in the concept of surrender either right?

No I really do. Especially the way Ulfric did it when it had a more Strategic and planned outcome

Like that Jeremius character. *I think*

If you value your life, Don't ever compare me to that rambling neanderthal again.

What if surrender is the logical outcome of a situation?

Again totally acceptable.

 

[Raijin]

I give up.

"The Empire I remember never surrendered."-Galmar.

 

[Ivory]

I give up.

"The Empire I remember never surrendered."-Galmar.

Yeah, you know all about giving up don't you?

Aren't we all? Either way I'm getting rather bored on this particular subject. It's going nowhere. Time to debate something else.... hmmm. What is the next on the table?

If you're gonna try to rustle someone's jimmies, try putting some effort instead of being so petty. This is too easy.

 

[Jeremius]

Like that Jeremius character. *I think*

If you value your life, Don't ever compare me to that rambling neanderthal again.

I will ignore both of these. Empire is still the better choice for purely logistical reasons.

 

[Raijin]

Yeah, you know all about giving up don't you?

If you're gonna try to rustle someone's jimmies, try putting some effort instead of being so petty. This is too easy.

I seem to have already rustled your jimmies because now you're posting plops up for the sake of arguing, and aren't throwing relevant statements onto the table.

It's incredible the way you guys behave when you get cornered like a frighten little puppy. You bark for a while up until you start fearing for your life, and then start showing your fear aggressiveness by trying to lunge for a bite. When you do bite it isn't a nice full bite that is expected. It's all chewy and full of nerves.