Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

DrunkenMage said: ↑

That statement just shows how little you know about the Thalmor. Legal reasons to stay in Skyrim... Seriously? Because the Thalmor are such law abiding people, right?​

They'll have no legal excuse. That's why they're in Skyrim. It's how they started kidnapping people in the first place, right? Because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks openly stated they broke the law, yes? Well once they no longer have that they have to work under cover, which won't be an easy feat while Ulfric is in Power.

You have to look at this from the Thalmor's point of view.

1) Mult locations they could safely sneak their way into the country
2) Mult factions they could barter an alliance with for long term gain (Forsworn, Rogue Jarls, Disgruntled Veterans/Citizens)

Rimfaxe is right about the Reachmen though. Prob wasn't thinking about this point, however it was Ulfric who drove them to the hills and broke their hearts.

So yeah... if I was a Forsworn and the Stormcloaks took over I'd be totally pissed off.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Oh, and additionally the Thalmor supplied a group of bandits known for taking the heads of their victims. Skyrim has these Reachmen savages, who are very eager to kill any Nord they see. They'd be happy about a few additional resources as well, don't you think?​

No the Reachman wouldn't. Its been stated many times that the Reachman don't fight for materials even if it will help their cause. They Only strive for their land and the exile of all foreigners from it.

Wars cost money. And I remember several Forsworn strongholds I explored were full of "resources".

That they mined and hunted for themselves.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

1) Mult locations they could safely sneak their way into the country

Where? from the Sea of Ghosts? that's not secretive or a good plan.

2) Mult factions they could barter an alliance with for long term gain (Forsworn, Rogue Jarls, Disgruntled Veterans/Citizens)

We've gone through Forsworn, No Jarl would join up with the Dominion ever (except for Sidgeir but hes in the Blue Palace). The Imperials hate them just as much so how would any Veterans want to willingly join up with him.

Rimfaxe is right about the Reachmen though. Prob wasn't thinking about this point, however it was Ulfric who drove them to the hills and broke their hearts.

So yeah... if I was a Forsworn and the Stormcloaks took over I'd be totally pissed off.

You'd be pissed either way equally though, since it was the Empire who stole it from them in the first place.

 

[Jeremius]

That statement just shows how little you know about the Thalmor. Legal reasons to stay in Skyrim... Seriously? Because the Thalmor are such law abiding people, right?

They'll have no legal excuse. That's why they're in Skyrim. It's how they started kidnapping people in the first place, right? Because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks openly stated they broke the law, yes? Well once they no longer have that they have to work under cover, which won't be an easy feat while Ulfric is in Power.

And yet they are not arresting a Dunmer who is "clearly a spy" which makes the problem of them catching real spies impossible to be done on the stormcloaks end.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Stormcloaks don't have anything of the sort. And Skyrim's rising poverty thanks to the rebellion makes it in fact easier to pay people to do their work, like that guy Gissur. And he's just one of many informants they have. Also, Ulfric has no knowledge about the Thalmor or the way they work at all. Doesn't even know how diplomacy works.

Don't they though? I mean they have tons of people on their side who experienced the Torture of The Thalmor and even men who know where a Thalmor Prison/Base is set up (The Two Brothers)

 

[LegateFasendil]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

1) Mult locations they could safely sneak their way into the country​

Where? from the Sea of Ghosts? that's not secretive or a good plan.

If they want to get in bad enough, they will find a way.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

2) Mult factions they could barter an alliance with for long term gain (Forsworn, Rogue Jarls, Disgruntled Veterans/Citizens)​

We've gone through Forsworn, No Jarl would join up with the Dominion ever (except for Sidgeir but hes in the Blue Palace). The Imperials hate them just as much so how would any Veterans want to willingly join up with him.

You don't know that. That's how you feel. But anything is possible, especially if Ulfric's administration fails or falters. Either way... there will be plenty of cracks for the Thalmor to slip thru.

Sidgeir is an Awesome Jarl. And I believe the Thalmor on here had once nominated him for Jarl of the Year. So yes, he's capable of anything. But it just goes to show you... you never know what people are capable of. Ulfric didn't go by the rules to become High King in your alt universe, so why should anyone else respect his place?

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Rimfaxe is right about the Reachmen though. Prob wasn't thinking about this point, however it was Ulfric who drove them to the hills and broke their hearts.​

So yeah... if I was a Forsworn and the Stormcloaks took over I'd be totally pissed off.​

You'd be pissed either way equally though, since it was the Empire who stole it from them in the first place.

True. I would be. However, once the Forsword had finally earned their freedom, it was Ulfric who took it away and made it so their King was cast into irons. The Empire was trying to resolve a peace treaty with the Reachmen... Ulfric took away their hopes and pissed on their dreams.

Yes. If I was them, I'd be very angry with Ulfric indeed.

 

[DrunkenMage]

They'll have no legal excuse. That's why they're in Skyrim. It's how they started kidnapping people in the first place, right? Because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks openly stated they broke the law, yes? Well once they no longer have that they have to work under cover, which won't be an easy feat while Ulfric is in Power.

The Thalmor do not care about what is legal or not. They didn't have a legal excuse while they were infiltrating parts of the Empire, funding insurgents and doing various espionage work.

Majority of what the Thalmor do is undercover, the Justiciars are just for show. The Thalmor are very skilled at cloak and dagger operations.

How exactly won't it be easy while Ulfric is in power? Skyrim is weakened after the Civil War, they are starting new governments, creating new armies and they're not protected by the counter intelligence groups in the Empire.

A country forming is the best environment.

Don't they though? I mean they have tons of people on their side who experienced the Torture of The Thalmor and even men who know where a Thalmor Prison/Base is set up (The Two Brothers)

Because getting tortured gives you the knowledge of their methods, their contacts, their agents, their plans etc?

The Thalmor have been doing this for a long time, they're not exactly going to slip you their evil plans while you're getting smacked around. Ulfric got tortured, does that mean he knows he was allowed to escape and was part of their plan to weaken the Empire? Probably not.

The Thalmor prison isn't a secret. The Thalmor don't set up giant bases when they want to infiltrate. There isn't going to be a fort with a large sign saying "Nothing suspicious going on here"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Of course Not. They just have a Tongue, A Thousand Warriors sworn to protect Ulfric and possibly The Dragonborn. Thats clearly not enough.

The Empire had five provinces, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus, thousands upon thousands of soldiers and militia. Then the Thalmor arrived.

So you tell me, does an isolated and weakened Skyrim have enough?

 

[Ivory]

They're only allowed in Skyrim because of the lawful White Gold Concordant in the first place. Am I wrong or...?

Very wrong. The Thalmor are the most elite in spying and espionage. They were able to take down the Blades themselves and as I've said in many posts before, they can have spies of any race and culture, through sheer blind loyalty, faith, will, and even Blackmail.

The Thalmor would have a field day with the Mess skyrim would be in without the Empire to protect it.

 

[Ivory]

Of course Not. They just have a Tongue, A Thousand Warriors sworn to protect Ulfric and possibly The Dragonborn. Thats clearly not enough.

The Empire had five provinces, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus, thousands upon thousands of soldiers and militia. Then the Thalmor arrived.

So you tell me, does an isolated and weakened Skyrim have enough?

Not to mention Tiber Septim had many provinces under his command, and the Voice and even he didn't tangle with Black Marsh. Dragonborn are not all powerful. One little man with the Voice, a few lets say "thousand" soldiers and even the Dragonborn would not be able to get to summerset isles at all when there is war.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not to mention Tiber Septim had many provinces under his command, and the Voice and even he didn't tangle with Black Marsh. Dragonborn are not all powerful. One little man with the Voice, a few lets say "thousand" soldiers and even the Dragonborn would not be able to get to summerset isles at all when there is war.

Well these Thalmor are different to the earlier groups.

But, Tiber was a brilliant General and political strategist. The Last Dragonborn didn't even know what a Thalmor was until explained to them by Delphine. Besides, the hero will vanish after the main quest. It is why both sides release you from their service, saying you're needed elsewhere.

It is the reason Imperials never use "We have the Dragonborn" Because neither side actually keep the Dragonborn, he/she leaves them at the end of the Civil War.

"Ulfric is dead and his army destroyed. There's not much more I could ask of you. The gods, however, I suspect, may have plans for you elsewhere." - General Tullius

"True sons and daughters of Skyrim reign in every city, we've crippled the Imperial Legion, and cut off it's head by killing General Tullius himself. What more could I ask of you? No, you are free to roam. I suspect the gods have needs for you elsewhere." - Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak

 

[Raijin]

Not out in the open, but hiding in plain sight in a room that no one really snoops around in. Raijin is using the armor and flag to justify the "he hates Nords, therefore he is a spy" argument.

I hate the president of the United States, and live in the United States. Am I spy?

That's a very poor example to use, Jeremius. Considering the fact that the United states is currently not in a civil war with each other... however if you want to put it this way... if you had an Al Qaeda flag dangling on the wall inside your house, and one of your friends (or a disgruntled girlfriend) decided to report you to the police not only would you be viewed by the public to be a potential spy, but also be charged with treason, and being a traitor of the United states.

You're not voicing a factual statement. You're arguing for the sake of arguing now. All you're doing is aiding the Imperial side now, because this all makes the Stormcloaks appear very incompetent.

So if the worst spy in Tamriel got Ulfric captured and nearly executed, you really stand no hope against the Thalmor.

You want people to accept he's a spy, okay. We'll all agree to it, obviously you Stormcloaks didn't like my theory which actually made out the rebels weren't idiots, but alright.

Yeah, that looks like a shrine alright...

Aren't we all? Either way I'm getting rather bored on this particular subject. It's going nowhere. Time to debate something else.... hmmm. What is the next on the table?

 

[Raijin]

Well these Thalmor are different to the earlier groups.

But, Tiber was a brilliant General and political strategist. The Last Dragonborn didn't even know what a Thalmor was until explained to them by Delphine. Besides, the hero will vanish after the main quest. It is why both sides release you from their service, saying you're needed elsewhere.

It is the reason Imperials never use "We have the Dragonborn" Because neither side actually keep the Dragonborn, he/she leaves them at the end of the Civil War.

"Ulfric is dead and his army destroyed. There's not much more I could ask of you. The gods, however, I suspect, may have plans for you elsewhere." - General Tullius

"True sons and daughters of Skyrim reign in every city, we've crippled the Imperial Legion, and cut off it's head by killing General Tullius himself. What more could I ask of you? No, you are free to roam. I suspect the gods have needs for you elsewhere." - Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak

I could never truly understand the ending of the civil war, but then again Bethesda fails severely in story telling. Their writing isn't all that good. The only good that came out of playing Skyrim is to show you just how unimportant you, as the dragonborn, are in the game. Sure they sing songs about you, but still. No fancy celebrations after fighting alduin, and the civil war? Tullius/Ulfric would be total fools if they just dismiss the dragonborn after the civil war is done. I can't possibly see them fighting the Aldmeri Dominion without the presence of the Dragonborn aiding them in battle.

 

[Vatonage]

I could never truly understand the ending of the civil war, but then again Bethesda fails severely in story telling. Their writing isn't all that good. The only good that came out of playing Skyrim is to show you just how unimportant you, as the dragonborn, are in the game. Sure they sing songs about you, but still. No fancy celebrations after fighting alduin, and the civil war? Tullius/Ulfric would be total fools if they just dismiss the dragonborn after the civil war is done. I can't possibly see them fighting the Aldmeri Dominion without the presence of the Dragonborn aiding them in battle.

Perhaps they still had another 450 quests to go? Skyrim, as expansive as it is, can't include everything. Are you disappointed Windhelm isn't a thousand person city?

 

[Ivory]

That's a very poor example to use, Jeremius. Considering the fact that the United states is currently not in a civil war with each other... however if you want to put it this way... if you had an Al Qaeda flag dangling on the wall inside your house, and one of your friends (or a disgruntled girlfriend) decided to report you to the police not only would you be viewed by the public to be a potential spy, but also be charged with treason, and being a traitor of the United states.

You'd probably be publicly shamed yes, perhaps even checked out by the Govt and watched, but I'm pretty sure by no means would you be arrested and charged for treason without evidence.

If we worked like that, the Westboro Baptist church wouldn't be free like they are now.

 

[Jeremius]

Not out in the open, but hiding in plain sight in a room that no one really snoops around in. Raijin is using the armor and flag to justify the "he hates Nords, therefore he is a spy" argument.

I hate the president of the United States, and live in the United States. Am I spy?

That's a very poor example to use, Jeremius. Considering the fact that the United states is currently not in a civil war with each other... however if you want to put it this way... if you had an Al Qaeda flag dangling on the wall inside your house, and one of your friends (or a disgruntled girlfriend) decided to report you to the police not only would you be viewed by the public to be a potential spy, but also be charged with treason, and being a traitor of the United states.

Let's try something else. If I was drug dealer, yet no one knew or even suspected it because they knew me as a person and never pried, am I really a drug dealer?

 

[Raijin]

You'd probably be publicly shamed yes, perhaps even checked out by the Govt and watched, but I'm pretty sure by no means would you be arrested and charged for treason without evidence.

If we worked like that, the Westboro Baptist church wouldn't be free like they are now.

Were at war with Al Qaeda as they declare it on us for our western culture, and therefor dangling their flag inside your house is an act of betrayal to the United states. Being publicly shamed is minor comparing to what will happen next. Westboro Baptist church are nothing but religious hate mongering fanatics.

 

[Ivory]

You'd probably be publicly shamed yes, perhaps even checked out by the Govt and watched, but I'm pretty sure by no means would you be arrested and charged for treason without evidence.

If we worked like that, the Westboro Baptist church wouldn't be free like they are now.

Were at war with Al Qaeda as they declare it on us for our western culture, and therefor dangling their flag inside your house is an act of betrayal to the United states. Being publicly shamed is minor comparing to what will happen next. Westboro Baptist church are nothing but religious hate mongering fanatics.

Doesn't matter. We're allowed to burn our own flag legally. If nothing criminal or illegal is happening, no action can be taken. I don't care what you think is wrong. We have laws and what few freedoms we have left. Respect that and learn them before spouting crap that isn't true. I'm not saying someone who hangs a flag like that deserves much sympathy, and they can be labeled traitor by the public, but by law unless they commit a crime against the US, the law does not and will not allow the person to be arrested for treason without evidence. Respect that.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Please leave Al-Qaeda out of this thread.
As long as fanatic Talos worshippers don't start bombing the Dominion that topic has nothing to do here.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

That statement just shows how little you know about the Thalmor. Legal reasons to stay in Skyrim... Seriously? Because the Thalmor are such law abiding people, right?

They'll have no legal excuse. That's why they're in Skyrim. It's how they started kidnapping people in the first place, right? Because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks openly stated they broke the law, yes? Well once they no longer have that they have to work under cover, which won't be an easy feat while Ulfric is in Power.

And yet they are not arresting a Dunmer who is "clearly a spy" which makes the problem of them catching real spies impossible to be done on the stormcloaks end.

I apologized for that remember?