Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

I know that this is a sarcastic response from you, DrunkenMage, and that I shouldn't taken it seriously, but the part where I highlighted in red is an actual a concern for Windhelm.

You're making out the Stormcloaks are incompetent. In your arguing about the Dunmer being a spy, you're destroying any hope of proving the Stormcloaks even stand a chance when the Thalmor turn greater attention towards an independent Skyrim.

I was trying to give the Stormcloaks benefit of the doubt, but you're just aiding the Imperial argument now.

Actually, you have a 50/50 chance there.

On one hand, there's the East Empire Company in Windhelm. They claim that they try not to get involved in politics, but if the payment is high enough I'm sure they wouldn't mind transporting a few soldiers into the port as well to strike right at the origin and heart of the rebellion. And if the guards aren't able to hold up a single murderer in the city, how are they going to deal with a whole group of killers? Ulfric has his troops on battlefields and scattered throughout "his" territories in Skyrim, not at home in Windhelm.

Doubt the EETC would do that, if it fails you're risking their trade agreements with Eastern Skyrim. They care about their money most of all, even to where they're looking at trade deals with the Thalmor.

But I also doubt the Empire would pay for that, the EETC would demand a very high price if they were even willing to do something like that.

Be a lot cheaper to just do a naval bombardment on Windhelm.

But if the Aldmeri Dominion rule Tamriel next game, due to the Stormcloak rebellion weakening the Empire... I will laugh at Stormcloak supporters.

 

[Vatonage]

The Dunmer and Nords are experiencing a clash of cultures, nothing you can do about that.

Also, the Thalmor in many ways have already beaten the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

This bickering is both pointless and futile. All of you guys are acting like a bunch of little kids on the playground. Your only hope of survival is to work together. Unfortunately, yet again...

It is my conclusion that for this case, it is in the best interests of man that the Empire must prevail. The Nords and Imperials will simply have to work together in order to survive. Talos or no Talos.

The Thalmor outclass, outweight and outswag all of you knuckleheads. The worship of Talos is important however I do not see Talos approving of people worshipping him to the grave. Furthermore, it is illogical to worship a higher being, much less die to worship one. It is logical however, to respect and learn from a higher being, to serve it's intentions. But you won't be able to do any of that if you're dead.

If Ulfric and Titus Mede are not removed, your two sides will simply be paving the way in blood for the next Camoran to rule Tamriel. While I have no problem with this in the Elven sense, somehow I think you might. And Ulfric AND Titus Mede II have both proven they cannot defeat the Thalmor, they must be relieved, but the Empire DID defeat the Thalmor, though not completely but that is a start.


"A leader is judged not by the length of his reign, but by the decisions he makes."

"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory".

- Kahless the Unforgettable
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_history


Therefore, regrettably I by logic I am also forced to conclude that Emperor Mede II was correct in signing the WGC.

Regardless of my personal feelings on the matter, the Empire is in the right. Opposing the Empire is illogical and ill advised, however I can see nothing wrong with replacing Emperor Mede with someone else, although the Dragonborn might be best for this there is no way of knowing who will be the next Emperor.

While there is no way to force someone to understand this, as the Stormcloaks may or may not, I think I finally have come to terms with it. Too many universal truths sit upon this. And before someone says something about Freedom, Freedom isn't free and it isn't a right. No one is truly ever free in this life. But for those who do have Freedom comes responsibility. And the Nords responsibility to Tiber Septim and his Empire, to fix it, to undo the damage, to prevent the Thalmor from destroying it (which is what they want most), comes before whatever personal feelings you may have as a Nord or Imperial.

What true Nord would destroy the Empire? What true Imperial would leave the Nords without their Freedom(s)?

There is no fast, easy way out. Sacrifices must be made and the bond reforged in the fires of Civil War. Or you can have your Freedom... while the rest of Tamriel burns.

I do not like this conclusion or this Empire, *however* the result is logical and in this case, there is too much at stake to be making decisions based on your emotions... that is most unwise. The best chance out of this hopeless scenario is to stick to logic first and then see how you feel in the morning. XD


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I'm surprised you just figured out how pointless the bickering is. It'd be like if someone's battle plan was to try and convince their enemy out of their frenzied rage by offering a logical, well worded claim of ownership. No matter who is right, no one is convinced, and since neither side is able to unite against a greater evil, everybody dies.

I almost feel like the real argument is who, without the Dragonborn's intervention, would win the Civil War. Although it would simply lead to this same argument again.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

But if the Aldmeri Dominion rule Tamriel next game, due to the Stormcloak rebellion weakening the Empire... I will laugh at Stormcloak supporters.

I've actually started to get used to this idea recently. Would make for a lot of dramatic game stuff and killing your enemies would probably become a passion.

I almost feel like the real argument is who, without the Dragonborn's intervention, would win the Civil War. Although it would simply lead to this same argument again.

No, it wouldn't. If no Dragonborn intervened, the Dragons would "win", but not the Civil War.
More like Skyrim/world domination or destruction. I guess I can't picture - or maybe people in Tamriel took everything far too literally - a dragon swallowing a whole planet, and verything else in existence.

Without the Dragonborn and dragons, the Imperials would be winning.
A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. -Hadvar
Tullius would have captured Ulfric, the execution would have proceeded as planned and the war would be over.

 

[Raijin]

You're making out the Stormcloaks are incompetent. In your arguing about the Dunmer being a spy, you're destroying any hope of proving the Stormcloaks even stand a chance when the Thalmor turn greater attention towards an independent Skyrim.

I was trying to give the Stormcloaks benefit of the doubt, but you're just aiding the Imperial argument now.

And how am I making out the Stormcloaks to be incompetent? Because I suspect that the Dunmer who owns the tavern to be an Imperial spy? I've already pointed out the evidence. Guilty until proven innocent by Imperial law. Perhaps things would be different once Imperial influence is out of Skyrim, but for now..... That Dunmer is guilty for being an Imperial spy.

But if the Aldmeri Dominion rule Tamriel next game, due to the Stormcloak rebellion weakening the Empire... I will laugh at Stormcloak supporters.

So what you're trying to tell me is that the Empire will crumble into tiny little pieces due to the Stormcloak rebellion? Do you have any faith in the Empire at all? And if the Stormcloaks actually weakens the Empire then it further proves that the Empire has no business even ruling Tamriel because they lack of strength and the ability to fight.

The Empires weakness gives the Aldmeri Dominion their strength and power.

 

[Jeremius]

You're making out the Stormcloaks are incompetent. In your arguing about the Dunmer being a spy, you're destroying any hope of proving the Stormcloaks even stand a chance when the Thalmor turn greater attention towards an independent Skyrim.

I was trying to give the Stormcloaks benefit of the doubt, but you're just aiding the Imperial argument now.

And how am I making out the Stormcloaks to be incompetent? Because I suspect that the Dunmer who owns the tavern to be an Imperial spy? I've already pointed out the evidence. Guilty until proven innocent by Imperial law. Perhaps things would be different once Imperial influence is out of Skyrim, but for now..... That Dunmer is guilty for being an Imperial spy.

No, you pointed out something that allowed your bias to consider evidence against someone that is doing nothing wrong.

Right now, I do not think that the Stormcloaks even know that stuff is there because it is IN HIS ROOM, which likely no stormcloak goes near.

 

[Raijin]

No, you pointed out something that allowed your bias to consider evidence against someone that is doing nothing wrong.

Right now, I do not think that the Stormcloaks even know that stuff is there because it is IN HIS ROOM, which likely no stormcloak goes near.

I'm not voicing my bias opinions. I'm voicing a factual statement. What do you think would happen to that Dunmer if Ulfric found out about his Imperial shrine inside his tavern? What do you think might happen to him because of it? Do you think he will just ignore the fact that he might very well be the person responsible for aiding General Tullius to his capture in Darkwater Crossing? Almost all of the Dunmers in Windhelm hate Ulfric because hes not taking their complaints as top priority, and would love nothing but to see him permanently go away.

 

[Sickle]

Personally I find the Stormcloak's ideals admirable, unwilling to bow down to their enemies and standing up for what they believe is true. Look at Hammerfell, they were able to hold back the Dominion for quite sometime until they reached a cease-fire. I believe Skyrim could do the same but it would require more then a force of rag-tag soldiers that form the Stormcloaks.

 

[Jeremius]

No, you pointed out something that allowed your bias to consider evidence against someone that is doing nothing wrong.

Right now, I do not think that the Stormcloaks even know that stuff is there because it is IN HIS ROOM, which likely no stormcloak goes near.

I'm not voicing my bias opinions. I'm voicing a factual statement. What do you think would happen to that Dunmer if Ulfric found out about his Imperial shrine inside his tavern? What do you think might happen to him because of it? Do you think he will just ignore the fact that he might very well be the person responsible for aiding General Tullius to his capture in Darkwater Crossing? Almost all of the Dunmers in Windhelm hate Ulfric because hes not taking their complaints as top priority, and would love nothing but to see him permanently go away.

And I am pointing out the obvious. No one likely knows of the Armor and flag, so what meaning is there for it? none.

No one talks about them, not even the guy you claim is a spy. So it obviously means nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And how am I making out the Stormcloaks to be incompetent? Because I suspect that the Dunmer who owns the tavern to be an Imperial spy? I've already pointed out the evidence. Guilty until proven innocent by Imperial law. Perhaps things would be different once Imperial influence is out of Skyrim, but for now..... That Dunmer is guilty for being an Imperial spy.

Because if he is an Imperial spy as you claim, then the Stormcloaks can't even deal with the worst spy in all of Tamriel. Imperial items are out in the open in his tavern, do the Stormcloaks at all know anything about what happens in establishments inside their capital?

So if the Stormcloaks are so clueless about this Dunmer, how would they be able to deal with the Thalmor? Who are about a thousand times more skilled at espionage than this Dunmer.

Your case of arguing the Dunmer is a spy, makes out the Stormcloaks are a bunch of jokes. It shows that they have no hope against the Thalmor, when they turn greater attention towards an independent Skyrim.

So what you're trying to tell me is that the Empire will crumble into tiny little pieces due to the Stormcloak rebellion? Do you have any faith in the Empire at all? And if the Stormcloaks actually weakens the Empire then it further proves that the Empire has no business even ruling Tamriel because they lack of strength and the ability to fight.

The Empires weakness gives the Aldmeri Dominion their strength and power.

Of course the Stormcloaks weaken the Empire, it is a Civil War Raijin... Are you magically expecting a civil war and open rebellion to strengthen the Empire? The war weakens Skyrim and Skyrim is part of the Empire, therefor it weakens the Empire.

It has nothing to do with the Empire lacking strength and ability, but it is timing. Ulfric's rebellion has occurred when Empire and Aldmeri Dominion are near the brink of war. Every resource wasted and soldier killed in the rebellion is one less thing the Aldmeri need to contend with.

The disunity and petty internal fighting of mankind gives the Aldmeri Dominion their strength.

The Stormcloak rebellion was what the Thalmor wanted, what they planned for and what they needed. The main threat to the Aldmeri Dominion is the Empire, it is the only force at the moment that stands in their way of control over Tamriel.

The Stormcloaks are a joke, push out the Thalmor? Well boys and girls, you can't "push out" the Thalmor. Read the TES novels, they don't need an embassy, they never have.

 

[Jeremius]

And how am I making out the Stormcloaks to be incompetent? Because I suspect that the Dunmer who owns the tavern to be an Imperial spy? I've already pointed out the evidence. Guilty until proven innocent by Imperial law. Perhaps things would be different once Imperial influence is out of Skyrim, but for now..... That Dunmer is guilty for being an Imperial spy.

Because if he is an Imperial spy as you claim, then the Stormcloaks can't even deal with the worst spy in all of Tamriel. Imperial items are out in the open in his tavern, do the Stormcloaks at all know anything about what happens in establishments inside their capital?

Not out in the open, but hiding in plain sight in a room that no one really snoops around in. Raijin is using the armor and flag to justify the "he hates Nords, therefore he is a spy" argument.

I hate the president of the United States, and live in the United States. Am I spy?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm not voicing my bias opinions. I'm voicing a factual statement. What do you think would happen to that Dunmer if Ulfric found out about his Imperial shrine inside his tavern? What do you think might happen to him because of it? Do you think he will just ignore the fact that he might very well be the person responsible for aiding General Tullius to his capture in Darkwater Crossing? Almost all of the Dunmers in Windhelm hate Ulfric because hes not taking their complaints as top priority, and would love nothing but to see him permanently go away.

You're not voicing a factual statement. You're arguing for the sake of arguing now. All you're doing is aiding the Imperial side now, because this all makes the Stormcloaks appear very incompetent.

So if the worst spy in Tamriel got Ulfric captured and nearly executed, you really stand no hope against the Thalmor.

You want people to accept he's a spy, okay. We'll all agree to it, obviously you Stormcloaks didn't like my theory which actually made out the rebels weren't idiots, but alright.

Yeah, that looks like a shrine alright...

Not out in the open, but hiding in plain sight in a room that no one really snoops around in. Raijin is using the armor and flag to justify the "he hates Nords, therefore he is a spy" argument.

I hate the president of the United States, and live in the United States. Am I spy?

It is out in the open, that table is for customers, people obviously must visit there. They're not hidden at all.

The spy argument works against the Stormcloaks, so I no longer care if they use it. Because it just destroys all hope the rebels stand any chance against the Thalmor.

Just let them use it, they're helping Imperials at this point.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Stormcloaks are a joke, push out the Thalmor? Well boys and girls, you can't "push out" the Thalmor. Read the TES novels, they don't need an embassy, they never have.

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

 

[Ivory]

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Stormcloaks are a joke, push out the Thalmor? Well boys and girls, you can't "push out" the Thalmor. Read the TES novels, they don't need an embassy, they never have.

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

That statement just shows how little you know about the Thalmor. Legal reasons to stay in Skyrim... Seriously? Because the Thalmor are such law abiding people, right?

 

[LegateFasendil]

DrunkenMage said: ↑

The Stormcloaks are a joke, push out the Thalmor? Well boys and girls, you can't "push out" the Thalmor. Read the TES novels, they don't need an embassy, they never have.​

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

Hmmm. Interesting point of view. Ulfric becoming High King prob won't serve you as well as you might think. In fact, it might make things worse. Because I think the Thalmor would leave or at least stop harassing people once the Empire puts an end to the Civil War. Esp if Titus Mede is gone. he Thalmor acquired so much power in Skyrim because the Emperor could no longer be taken at his word because of Ulfric raising hell over the WGC.

With Ulfric gone, the Empire can say, "See, we got this now... GET OUT!" With TMII gone, whoever takes over as Emperor can be like, "Pfff I didn't sign that treaty, you're dealing with me now MFer."

Just saying.

Like what it says in the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric. Something about how an Imperial victory will severely derail their long term objectives in Skyrim. Ulfric becoming King might get them to leave temp, however in many way Skyrim would be on it's own, isolated politically so the Thalmor could mess with them anytime they want under Ulfric.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

I'm assuming you haven't read the TES novels. Let me clarify then;
If the Thalmor can't have an open presence, they'll take the underground route. In the Empire for example, they had operations going in so called "Thalmor nests", mostly spionage and getting information (although, as the assassination of Ocato shows, they're perfectly capable of murder). It needn't be a politician who is loyal to them, from the example in the book an affair partner asking questions every now and then is enough. Luckily the Emperor is a clever man, got his Penitus Oculatus together and even has people among them who study the Thalmor and their strategy and tactics.

The Stormcloaks don't have anything of the sort. And Skyrim's rising poverty thanks to the rebellion makes it in fact easier to pay people to do their work, like that guy Gissur. And he's just one of many informants they have. Also, Ulfric has no knowledge about the Thalmor or the way they work at all. Doesn't even know how diplomacy works.

Oh, and additionally the Thalmor supplied a group of bandits known for taking the heads of their victims. Skyrim has these Reachmen savages, who are very eager to kill any Nord they see. They'd be happy about a few additional resources as well, don't you think?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Stormcloaks don't have anything of the sort.

Of course Not. They just have a Tongue, A Thousand Warriors sworn to protect Ulfric and possibly The Dragonborn. Thats clearly not enough.

Oh, and additionally the Thalmor supplied a group of bandits known for taking the heads of their victims. Skyrim has these Reachmen savages, who are very eager to kill any Nord they see. They'd be happy about a few additional resources as well, don't you think?

No the Reachman wouldn't. Its been stated many times that the Reachman don't fight for materials even if it will help their cause. They Only strive for their land and the exile of all foreigners from it.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

That statement just shows how little you know about the Thalmor. Legal reasons to stay in Skyrim... Seriously? Because the Thalmor are such law abiding people, right?

They'll have no legal excuse. That's why they're in Skyrim. It's how they started kidnapping people in the first place, right? Because Ulfric and the Stormcloaks openly stated they broke the law, yes? Well once they no longer have that they have to work under cover, which won't be an easy feat while Ulfric is in Power.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Oh, and additionally the Thalmor supplied a group of bandits known for taking the heads of their victims. Skyrim has these Reachmen savages, who are very eager to kill any Nord they see. They'd be happy about a few additional resources as well, don't you think?​

No the Reachman wouldn't. Its been stated many times that the Reachman don't fight for materials even if it will help their cause. They Only strive for their land and the exile of all foreigners from it.

Wars cost money. And I remember several Forsworn strongholds I explored were full of "resources".

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They'll have no legal reasons to stay in Skyrim once Ulfric becomes High King so yes they will be kicked out.

They're only allowed in Skyrim because of the lawful White Gold Concordant in the first place. Am I wrong or...?