Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

You mean a culture of warmongering and infighting? The reason the Moot was established in the first place? The reason that the Moot is being put off until ULFRIC is sure he will win it?

That culture? Because that culture nearly killed the Nords long ago.

Not sure why you're calling them warmongers. Lore wise it's the Empire that loves causing wars. Tullius could of very well ended this civil war with the important information that he has against the Thalmor, but he kept on going until he was in an vulnerable position where hes pleading for his life. The Emperor lead many people to their deaths because he decided to not listen to his Generals reading to the lack of strength in his military power. At the end he finally agreed to a treaty that was presented to him prior to the war.

Nords are the warrior race in Tamriel's human forces. Ulfric proves this when he forces the High King into a duel Ulfric knew the young man could not win. An Unfair advantage does not tradition equal. The Moot is the tradition of the Nords, not slaughtering each other for the throne.

 

[Raijin]

You mean a culture of warmongering and infighting? The reason the Moot was established in the first place? The reason that the Moot is being put off until ULFRIC is sure he will win it?

That culture? Because that culture nearly killed the Nords long ago.

Not sure why you're calling them warmongers. Lore wise it's the Empire that loves causing wars. Tullius could of very well ended this civil war with the important information that he has against the Thalmor, but he kept on going until he was in an vulnerable position where hes pleading for his life. The Emperor lead many people to their deaths because he decided to not listen to his Generals reading to the lack of strength in his military power. At the end he finally agreed to a treaty that was presented to him prior to the war.

Nords are the warrior race in Tamriel's human forces. Ulfric proves this when he forces the High King into a duel Ulfric knew the young man could not win. An Unfair advantage does not tradition equal. The Moot is the tradition of the Nords, not slaughtering each other for the throne.

If Torygg could not win then he shouldn't be ruling the country. Would you rather have a king hide in his castle during a war expecting guards to protect him due to lack of combat experience, or would you rather have him come out and fight beside his men during combat?

Like Ulfric said "I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?"

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Not sure why you're calling them warmongers. Lore wise it's the Empire that loves causing wars. Tullius could of very well ended this civil war with the important information that he has against the Thalmor, but he kept on going until he was in an vulnerable position where hes pleading for his life. The Emperor lead many people to their deaths because he decided to not listen to his Generals reading to the lack of strength in his military power. At the end he finally agreed to a treaty that was presented to him prior to the war.

Nords are the warrior race in Tamriel's human forces. Ulfric proves this when he forces the High King into a duel Ulfric knew the young man could not win. An Unfair advantage does not tradition equal. The Moot is the tradition of the Nords, not slaughtering each other for the throne.

If Torygg could not win then he shouldn't be ruling the country. Would you rather have a king hide in his castle during a war expecting guards to protect him due to lack of combat experience, or would you rather have him come out and fight beside his men during combat?

Like Ulfric said "I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?"

If Torygg could not win a FAIR contest, he should not rule. He was never given one. It was hardly even a duel. It was actually just a cover for Ulfric to kill Torygg.

I, for one, would rather have a SMART king than a king who kills for attention.

 

[MehrunesDagon]

Like most people have said, the stormcloaks are pretty racist and hate other races the most, however they are very noble peopl. On the other hand you have the imperials who are not racist but they seem grouchy 24/7 (my opinion) but they are a great group to join. Also uf you join with the inperials you get ulfric's clothes that look badass and uf you sude with tge stirmcloaks you get general tullius's outfit which isnt to rare but can look badass
-hope this helped


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[Ivory]

Would you rather have a king hide in his castle during a war expecting guards to protect him due to lack of combat experience, or would you rather have him come out and fight beside his men during combat?

You mean like how Ulfric hides in the palace of kings when the imperials storm his city?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Would you rather have a king hide in his castle during a war expecting guards to protect him due to lack of combat experience, or would you rather have him come out and fight beside his men during combat?

You mean like how Ulfric hides in the palace of kings when the imperials storm his city?

Good point.

 

[Epic Keith]

Like most people have said, the stormcloaks are pretty racist and hate other races the most, however they are very noble peopl. On the other hand you have the imperials who are not racist but they seem grouchy 24/7 (my opinion) but they are a great group to join. Also uf you join with the inperials you get ulfric's clothes that look badass and uf you sude with tge stirmcloaks you get general tullius's outfit which isnt to rare but can look badass
-hope this helped


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I hate to say this but Stormies aren't racist. Those two in your first visit to Windhelm are however. If you are a Khajit, then all the guards in all the holds call you a 'cat'. It's not related to the Stormies. And Khajit caravans aren't allowed in ANY of the nine holds. The Dark Elves in Windhelm are living in slums yet a High Elf, who Ulfric and Galmar hates the most, has a nice little house in Windhelm.

I do think the people of Windhelm are racist though.

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[Naglfar]

I only ever did the military quests once, and that was as a Imperial. Most of my characters aren't interested in taking sides. I'll have to make a character that's sympathetic towards the Stormcloaks and see how that plays out. Though never having played through the Stormcloak campaign I am hoping you get to drive out the Thalmor at some point.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I only ever did the military quests once, and that was as a Imperial. Most of my characters aren't interested in taking sides. I'll have to make a character that's sympathetic towards the Stormcloaks and see how that plays out. Though never having played through the Stormcloak campaign I am hoping you get to drive out the Thalmor at some point.

The Stormcloak side of the war only kills Ondolemar in Markarth. The rest of the Thalmor remains unharmed actually, or rather, would have been killed outside of the Stormcloak questline as well.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I hate to say this but Stormies aren't racist. Those two in your first visit to Windhelm are however. If you are a Khajit, then all the guards in all the holds call you a 'cat'. It's not related to the Stormies. And Khajit caravans aren't allowed in ANY of the nine holds. The Dark Elves in Windhelm are living in slums yet a High Elf, who Ulfric and Galmar hates the most, has a nice little house in Windhelm.

I do think the people of Windhelm are racist though.

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Only Stormcloak or Holds aligned to Stormcloaks call you cat or lizard. You can even confirm that in UESP on guard dialogue. Dark Elves and High Elves are two different races. What makes you think they hate High Elves more? They only mention more distate for 'Elves'.

Just because a High Elf has a nice house, it doesn't mean anything. Just because you don't do anything against one race, it doesn't excuse you for the actions against another race. That is a weak argument. If I hated Nords, but not Imperials that wouldn't be racist since I don't hate Imperials, because they're also human?

 

[Epic Keith]

I hate to say this but Stormies aren't racist. Those two in your first visit to Windhelm are however. If you are a Khajit, then all the guards in all the holds call you a 'cat'. It's not related to the Stormies. And Khajit caravans aren't allowed in ANY of the nine holds. The Dark Elves in Windhelm are living in slums yet a High Elf, who Ulfric and Galmar hates the most, has a nice little house in Windhelm.

I do think the people of Windhelm are racist though.

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Only Stormcloak or Holds aligned to Stormcloaks call you cat or lizard. You can even confirm that in UESP on guard dialogue. Dark Elves and High Elves are two different races. What makes you think they hate High Elves more? They only mention more distate for 'Elves'.

Just because a High Elf has a nice house, it doesn't mean anything. Just because you don't do anything against one race, it doesn't excuse you for the actions against another race. That is a weak argument. If I hated Nords, but not Imperials that wouldn't be racist since I don't hate Imperials, because they're also human?

AAARGHHHH!! THIS IS WHY I HATE YOU!!!

 

[Rimfaxe96]

AAARGHHHH!! THIS IS WHY I HATE YOU!!!

And that's why it is much easier to hate everyone.
They're all flawed anyway.

 

[NightElk274]

Join the stormcloaks.Because they are just fighting the thalmor so they can have their nordic way of life.Saying that ulfric is racist makes no sense at all because ulfric doesn't like dark elves and argonians but he is letting a high elf and an imperial live in windhelm while the aldmeri dominion believe that they are the best among all of the the races.And ulfric wouldn't let the dark elves and argonians even live in windhelm if he hated them so much.I've seen people in windhelm that wish argonians and dark elves never existed.And skyrim is the home of the nords.Yes they used to live in atmora and came to skyrim and killed the snow elves.But high elves didn't exactly belong to the summer set isles ether.They came to skyrim from the aldmeries.If there was a choice to fight the thalmor and not the empire that would have been the one I would choose but sense there isn't the stormcloaks are the only choice.

 

[Pokeborn]

It really depends on your character's race. The Imperials are basically the Aldmeri Dominion which the Khajiit, And any Mer would be a part of. Stormcloaks are racist and basically are on a suicide mission for the throne because if you read the notes on Ulfric Stormcloak, the Thalmor want the Empire to fall because the White-Gold Concordant (the treaty) will end. The Thalmor would overtake Skyrim if you pick Stormcloaks. But the Imperials have no place in Skyrim to force beliefs. Would you rather have the Thalmor or the Imperials? If your a Nord you should join Stormcloaks. Anything else you would join the Imperials.

My Khajiit is joining the Stormcloaks at first because of the execution and using them to get the Jagged Crown and I will hand it over to General Tullius to betray Stormcloaks and keep the Thalmor away. Later I will assassinate the Emperor as part of the Dark Brotherhood. Therefore being a Khajiit assassin, repeling the snobby racists and the Thalmor and striking the Empire back at the same time. Thats my story. I retaliate on everyone who has been annoying.


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[Rimfaxe96]

You know, I would despise the Dark Brotherhood much less if assassinations of politicians within the Aldmeri Dominion would be possible.
Too bad the DB isn't exactly at the height of its power, and even if it was; if these Summerset Shadows were driven out of the AD (or left for their own safety), I don't think the Brotherhood would have been handled much differently.

 

[Specter of Death]

My Turn to re-spark some discussion. I'm not Pro either of the groups, but I see a lot more flaws in the Rebellion than I do the Empire. If they lacked these flaws, then I would more than likely be Pro Stormcloak, but like I said, I'm nuetral.

1. Racism - Quite possibly my go-to reason to dislike the Stormcloaks. Though not all of them have a blatent hatred towards all Non-Nord races (mainly Mer), but easily more than half of them do. I feel like they would get a lot more "Bees with Honey" if you know what I mean. There are a lot of Mer who aren't pro Thalmor or Empire at all, and I think any ally could help in their cause. This ignorance, and Superiority Complex that most of them suffer could inevitably be weakening their powers.

2. Mis-Understanding History/Lore - The Stormcloak beleif is that the surpression of their Main Diety (Talos) is the biggest offense on them, as well as the Imperialistic Control of the Empire. But Mainly, they use the Worship of Talos to their advantage. This would be correct, if they weren't using this incorrectly. Talos isn't just a Divine for the Nords and Skyrim, but for the Imperials and the Empire as well. He wouldn't have even "become" a Divine if it weren't for his god-like service within the Empire itself. Why would he approve of "his children" fighting his brother and sisters of the Empire? If anything, the Stormcloaks shouldn't even be fighting the Empire at all, but mainly the Thalmor. They would get so much farther if they worked WITH the Empire than against them. But then again, this wouldn't be a Full Blown Rebellion, rather than an Opposition towards the Bullplops Thalmor and Dominion.

3. Use of Force - Think about how much farther they could get with a more Diplomatic approach. Assuming that they had one. They have so many allies with them already, that they have a cockiness that gives them a self-entitlement that all Nords have to support them. If they don't, they become aggressive, like in the case of Whiterun, an Imperial Supporting Hold. If they had simply said that they only wish to protect the city from the Thalmor and their Justicar Thugs, so that the Worship of Talos was allowed, and that they weren't against the Imperials, they could've taken hold of Whiterun, and maybe, slowly swayed the city into Stormcloak Support. (All assuming that Balgruuf isn't being a stubborn ass).

Feel Free to counter argue. I am willing to have a nice discussion. However, don't take offense to me. Remember, I am not a Pro Empire Either. In fact, I could list their issues as well, but I have no time sooo...

 

[Daryl Dixon]

I agree with all of this and would like you to do the same list but for the empire, I'm interested in what you have to say about their flaws.

 

[Specter of Death]

I will Dixon. No time now, maybe tomorrow however.

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[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I will Dixon. No time now, maybe tomorrow however.

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Can help you get started:

1: Ethnocentric-They believe that anyone who is not a part of their "glorious" empire is a barbarian or some such.

2: Cowardly-many people despise the Empire to turning it's back to its people outside of their homeland in Cyrodiil just because they got there backsides handed to them in the Great War before they even had a chance to counter attack.

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When it comes to the reasons, I think you got one wrong. Just because Nords are the only ones joining does not mean they are racist. The ignore Adrienne likely because they know her father was the advisor to the old Jarl Balgruuf.

 

[Specter of Death]

When it comes to the reasons, I think you got one wrong. Just because Nords are the only ones joining does not mean they are racist. The ignore Adrienne likely because they know her father was the advisor to the old Jarl Balgruuf.

Understand that I said most of them are. Sure, there are many exceptions to my Racism Criticism of the Stormcloaks, but more often than not, the amount of Racist Nords out ways that of the Tolerant ones. I didn't mean that they ALL were racist and ignorant, but most of them.

Thanks for the Start. I am very inclined to agree with your points about the Imperials. There are some other things I will add pretty soon. Stay tuned.