DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Thought about countering my Stormcloak arguments, cause I'm bored.
Has the urge to turn everyone back to Empire.
Has the urge to turn everyone back to Empire.
Not everyone has turned against the Empire.
Loyalty, bitches
The Empire fell with Martin. This-shell-is not the Empire.
The Empire fell with Martin. This-shell-is not the Empire.
Martin Septim did little more than the duties a priest of Akatosh does for the Empire before the Oblivion Crisis. Saved the world from said Crisis just before his death, we'll never know whether the Empire would have been better - or worse - if he'd have had the chance to rule.
Except that he was the last true heir to the Septim Empire. This Empire is little more than a cowardly shell too afraid to stand up for itself.
Except that he was the last true heir to the Septim Empire. This Empire is little more than a cowardly shell too afraid to stand up for itself.
Because the name Septim alone makes you a worthy and clever ruler, because all the trouble the Empire had didn't happen before the Mede's ascended to the throne per bitchfighting, okay. And gathering all the manpower you have and using a strategy that no General etc would have ever dared to even think about in order to defeat the entire main army of the Dominion and that successfully, against all odds is behavior that earns you the title of "coward"?
Alright. Happy coward right here.
Except that he was the last true heir to the Septim Empire. This Empire is little more than a cowardly shell too afraid to stand up for itself.
Because the name Septim alone makes you a worthy and clever ruler, because all the trouble the Empire had didn't happen before the Mede's ascended to the throne per bitchfighting, okay. And gathering all the manpower you have and using a strategy that no General etc would have ever dared to even think about in order to defeat the entire main army of the Dominion and that successfully, against all odds is behavior that earns you the title of "coward"?
Alright. Happy coward right here.
No, surrendering when he had just dealt a crippling blow to the Dominion and agreeing to the very treaty that started the war in the first is place is what makes him a coward. If the Empire had continued to fight, the Dominion would have been forced to back down entirely. Hammerfell proved that. Instead, Mede surrendered and betrayed his own people to the Thalmor. Hammerfell was abandoned, and Skyrim was laid open for cultural genocide.
He was a shrewd tactician, but a terrible leader who lost any backbone he might've had during the war. If you follow the Dark Brotherhood quests, he doesn't even bother to fight back despite the fact that his death would throw what was left of the Empire into chaos.
No, surrendering when he had just dealt a crippling blow to the Dominion and agreeing to the very treaty that started the war in the first is place is what makes him a coward. If the Empire had continued to fight, the Dominion would have been forced to back down entirely. Hammerfell proved that. Instead, Mede surrendered and betrayed his own people to the Thalmor. Hammerfell was abandoned, and Skyrim was laid open for cultural genocide.
He was a shrewd tactician, but a terrible leader who lost any backbone he might've had during the war. If you follow the Dark Brotherhood quests, he doesn't even bother to fight back despite the fact that his death would throw what was left of the Empire into chaos.
And how was he supposed to know how many men the Dominion had left? The victory of Hammerfell happened 5 years later and the Battle of the Red Ring didn't end without heavy losses. With nobody left to keep order and security the Empire would have truly gone to waste.
Plus, let's not forget that the Dominion isn't a random dumb NPC that strikes on the same opponent over and over again. Who knows, they might as well would have taken their forces from Hammerfell back to Cyrodiil.
As someone mentioned earlier, we don't know if the Elder Council had their hands in the surrender as well. They must've already considered Titus a madman for his advance back into the Imperial City, and now keep on fighting with the land and its people in ruins?
The Great War was ~30 years ago. Mede was probably a capable swordsman himself back then. But what good would an old man against an assassin, on top of that from the Dark Brotherhood, do? Titus was smart enough himself to know that, rather than arrogantly posture himself with lines like "You can't defeat me!" etc. He knows he's to old to keep on fighting. I just wonder, seeing how willingly he went and how he expected it, if he didn't prepare his Empire.
But let's not go too far on that one, we had it already; Imperial supporters can say "There's a mastermind waiting to kill elves in TES6!" as much as Stormcloak supporters can say "An Empire without a leader is an easy kill, we're all doomed if we stay!"
It's pure speculation.
No, surrendering when he had just dealt a crippling blow to the Dominion and agreeing to the very treaty that started the war in the first is place is what makes him a coward. If the Empire had continued to fight, the Dominion would have been forced to back down entirely. Hammerfell proved that. Instead, Mede surrendered and betrayed his own people to the Thalmor. Hammerfell was abandoned, and Skyrim was laid open for cultural genocide.
He was a shrewd tactician, but a terrible leader who lost any backbone he might've had during the war. If you follow the Dark Brotherhood quests, he doesn't even bother to fight back despite the fact that his death would throw what was left of the Empire into chaos.
And how was he supposed to know how many men the Dominion had left? The victory of Hammerfell happened 5 years later and the Battle of the Red Ring didn't end without heavy losses. With nobody left to keep order and security the Empire would have truly gone to waste.
Plus, let's not forget that the Dominion isn't a random dumb NPC that strikes on the same opponent over and over again. Who knows, they might as well would have taken their forces from Hammerfell back to Cyrodiil.
As someone mentioned earlier, we don't know if the Elder Council had their hands in the surrender as well. They must've already considered Titus a madman for his advance back into the Imperial City, and now keep on fighting with the land and its people in ruins?
The Great War was ~30 years ago. Mede was probably a capable swordsman himself back then. But what good would an old man against an assassin, on top of that from the Dark Brotherhood, do? Titus was smart enough himself to know that, rather than arrogantly posture himself with lines like "You can't defeat me!" etc. He knows he's to old to keep on fighting. I just wonder, seeing how willingly he went and how he expected it, if he didn't prepare his Empire.
But let's not go too far on that one, we had it already; Imperial supporters can say "There's a mastermind waiting to kill elves in TES6!" as much as Stormcloak supporters can say "An Empire without a leader is an easy kill, we're all doomed if we stay!"
It's pure speculation.
Except there is no evidence on what will happen to the Empire, or IF Mede prepared the Empire for his death. that would be possible, but without evidence to support it, it is wrong.
And what does it matter? Titus Mede II started the war despite not knowing just how powerful the Dominion had become, against the advice of his generals who told him they were outclassed. Instead of taking the coward's way out and surrendering, he went against the odds and fought. He faced the same situation following the Battle of the Red Ring, but this time he gave in and submitted to the Thalmor.
Why the change? The war obviously shattered his morale. He'd taken a risk in challenging the Dominion, and he'd nearly lost his Empire because of it. He became a coward. In his eyes, it was better for the Empire to survive as a client state of the Dominion than to die free. This is why the Nords see him as unworthy to rule, and why the Stormcloaks were able to gain so much support. In their eyes, it's better to die fighting than to surrender and become a slave.
As for the Elder Council, we know very little about them and their level of influence over the Empire at that point in time. While it's possible that they forced the Emperor's hand, it's equally possible that the Thalmor assassinated him and replaced him with an impostor. There is no evidence to support either idea.
Also, there is a huge difference between accepting your death and simply letting someone kill you. Titus Mede didn't even bother to fight and die with some measure of honor.
No, surrendering when he had just dealt a crippling blow to the Dominion and agreeing to the very treaty that started the war in the first is place is what makes him a coward.
If the Empire had continued to fight, the Dominion would have been forced to back down entirely.
Hammerfell proved that.
Instead, Mede surrendered and betrayed his own people to the Thalmor.
Hammerfell was abandoned, and Skyrim was laid open for cultural genocide.
He was a shrewd tactician, but a terrible leader who lost any backbone he might've had during the war. If you follow the Dark Brotherhood quests, he doesn't even bother to fight back despite the fact that his death would throw what was left of the Empire into chaos.
I don't know how Mage puts up with it.
I enjoy debating, though I take normally an aggressive stance. If I can press an attack, I'll hammer in a hard argument. My weakness however comes from defending. I'm not good when forced into defensive.
I'd probably enjoy it a lot more if this was a black-white-argument. Would be way easier.
On the other hand, I' already be a lot easier anyway if I went like 50 pages back and just answered with quotes from your old arguments.
Except there is no evidence on what will happen to the Empire, or IF Mede prepared the Empire for his death. that would be possible, but without evidence to support it, it is wrong.
That's just what I said in my post.
And what does it matter? Titus Mede II started the war despite not knowing just how powerful the Dominion had become, against the advice of his generals who told him they were outclassed. Instead of taking the coward's way out and surrendering, he went against the odds and fought. He faced the same situation following the Battle of the Red Ring, but this time he gave in and submitted to the Thalmor.
Why the change? The war obviously shattered his morale. He'd taken a risk in challenging the Dominion, and he'd nearly lost his Empire because of it. He became a coward. In his eyes, it was better for the Empire to survive as a client state of the Dominion than to die free. This is why the Nords see him as unworthy to rule, and why the Stormcloaks were able to gain so much support. In their eyes, it's better to die fighting than to surrender and become a slave.
As for the Elder Council, we know very little about them and their level of influence over the Empire at that point in time. While it's possible that they forced the Emperor's hand, it's equally possible that the Thalmor assassinated him and replaced him with an impostor. There is no evidence to support either idea.
Also, there is a huge difference between accepting your death and simply letting someone kill you. Titus Mede didn't even bother to fight and die with some measure of honor.
Because if he hadn't done anything at all he would have faced civil war. The Empire would've been torn down from the inside, which of course would've made it an even easier target for conquest for the Dominion. Of course that sucks, all those people dying in vain, but for the survival of the Empire it was a necessity.
And Titus knows that too, even in that published book it's written: Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
You know, at some point people don't want war anymore. For example, the civil war in Skyrim hasn't been going for long and already we have NPC dialogue which says "I don't care that we lost, I'm just glad the war is over." should you finish the CW questline (Imperial victory; although different dialogue makes it clear that there're enough folk on the Imperial side who think likewise).
Fighting back isn't necessary to accept death. He knew he had it coming, I guess he's just happy he didn't have to be assassinated by some Thalmor kitten nightblade.
'I told him you can't stop the Dark Brotherhood. Never could.'
'You and I have a date with destiny. But so it is with assassins and emperors, hmm? Yes, I must die. And you must deliver the blow. It is simply the way it is.'
'You will kill me, and I have accepted that fate.'
Be aware that the Dark Brotherhood isn't known as some random group of killers. They are infamous and known for getting their jobs done; even secret agents fear them (as the book "Lord of Souls" shows).
Boy, I've made what now? 3 posts and I already grow tired of discussing. I don't know how Mage puts up with it.
Empire didn't surrender, it signed the White-Gold Concordat. They dealt a crippling blow, but at great cost. Three Legions wiped out, the rest under half strength, loss of Imperial authority for many years, cities erupting into violence during peace time.
The Empire didn't want to continue. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price. - Great War
Hammerfell proved they could fight a greatly weakened army in their home province. They signed a treaty with the Thalmor, but devastated what remained of the most liveable part of their province.
Signed a temporary peace to rebuild and fight another day. 'His people' mostly welcomed peace at almost any price.
Hammerfell refused the White-Gold Concordat, left the Empire little choice but to renounce them. Skyrim didn't have problems with the Thalmor until it was agitated by the 'Sons of Skyrim' (Stormcloak rebellion).
It is entirely possible Mede lost the will to lead after the Great War, as mentioned in the Dark Brotherhood quests to why the Emperor likely cancelled his original visit to Skyrim "Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."
There would be no point for Titus Mede II to fight you, he's old for one and secondly he's facing a Dark Brotherhood assassin unarmed.
His death won't throw the Empire into chaos. The death of an Emperor rarely does, only without heirs do people start freaking out and Tullius doesn't even seem phased about it.
What caused the issues after Septim Dynasty was the assassination of Ocato, not the Emperors. After the Reman Dynasty, the Akaviri Potentate ruled without any recorded issues for 282 years.
The Empire was also much larger back then, harder to maintain Imperial authority.
You're arguing semantics. The Empire accepted the same terms the Dominion offered at the start of the war.
They agreed to pay tribute to the Thalmor
and follow the Dominion's official religious doctrine. That's called a surrender any way you look at it.
And war is about sacrifice.
'Most of the Empire' meaning Cyrodiil. Hammerfell and Skyrim were furious, and we have no idea what High Rock felt about the issue.
...And? If a single, weakened nation cut off from any allies could drive out the Dominion from their territory
it follows that the Empire, possessing far greater resources and manpower, could've done so as well.
Let's not forget that even before the outbreak of the Great War, the people of Hammerfell had been fighting an internal conflict for years.
30 years doesn't seem very temporary.
And rebuild?
Again, it's been 30 years
yet the Imperial Legion can't even put down a relatively minor rebellion.
It's far more likely that most of the Empire's resources went into rebuilding the cities in Cyrodiil that were destroyed during the war rather than into restoring the Legion.
Which doesn't make sense at all if Mede's goal was to buy himself the time needed to regroup and rebuild his army.
The Empire gave up most of Hammerfell's territory to the Dominion by signing the Concordat, they didn't have much to lose by cutting off what little was left of the province.
And seriously? Even the individuals who support the Empire are angry that the Thalmor are allowed to go around arresting anyone who opposes them with full Imperial support.
The 'Sons of Skyrim' didn't stir that sentiment up. They were formed because of it.
I addressed the assassination in my post above.
Thing is, we don't even know if Titus Mede II had any heirs. We've never heard anything about them, which is odd if they exist.
As for Tullius, he has his own problems to deal with in Skyrim without worrying about Imperial politics.
His reaction or lack thereof doesn't mean much.
Besides, chaos isn't limited to outright civil war. The Elder Council will have to choose the next Emperor if Mede had no heirs, and we know that the Thalmor have been courting the Empire's nobility for decades.
Titus would've had to been totally oblivious to not realize the potential consequences of his death at this point in time.