Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

NENALATA: You will come back, you always come back.

 

[Anouck]

Really Anouck all of them? Well I guess if Anouck says it, it all must be true and we need to take her word for it immediately and without question.

You can act sarcastic all the way you want - that does not make it less true. You do change sides every other day. You go from Imperial to Thalmor and from Thalmor to Imperial.
Did Mage change sides? Yes. But once. Once in two years. And it took him lots of reading and reconsidering to do so. Changing sides once does not damage your credibility because everyone knows people can change their mind now and then. But if you do it as often as you do, I don't even know what to think of you in a debate. Do you even believe yourself what you try to convince others of, if you'll most likely switch sides again by the end of tomorrow?

You haven't proven enough to debunk prob 60% - 75% of my arguments, much less understand them.

I did not argue in here for a while now. However, that does not mean I did not read everything. Maybe you noticed I kept giving people ratings throughout the last few pages despite the fact I wasn't active in here myself? That's because I followed the debate. And I am very sure I understand it.
This is the old 'you disagree because you don't understand' card. People do understand what you say. Sometimes they have a different opinion - and sometimes what you say is just straight out wrong. And when people point that out, you just recycle your argument - retyping it slightly different and use it again.

...Like your signature:
From 4E 176 - 4E 180 (4 YEARS) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stood by and DID. NOTHING. AT. ALL. to assist Hammerfell against the Thalmor." - NENALATA
Didn't this argument got countered over and over again? Ulfric was a soldier in the Legion back then. Blaming him for doing 'nothing' is like blaming Hadvar/Ralof for not stopping the Thalmor. Also, Ulfric was in prison during that time. He couldn't do anything, even if he wanted to.

So when I talk about winning, I am referring to the message, which was never proven false by any reasonable standard or methods of logic, therefore, you never defeated me. Again, someone will always lose when you attack their humanity.

When I point out you can't blame Mage for changing sides once when you change sides daily, that is not attacking your humanity. That's exposing hypocrisy, my friend.

The problem is you gave others such a hard time about doing same thing. When your busy calling everyone else out, that was just fine, bragging about running Stormcloaks off, so I'm sure you understand.

That's because you do it so much more often. If you do it once -that's fine. People change their minds. Stuff like that happens. But if you do it as often as you do you lose your credibility. Like I said: When you try to convince me, how much should that mean? You will most likely change your mind within 24 hours. If you can't keep your own opinion for longer than 3 days, then why should I take it serious?

Btw - This was the train wreck I was talking about. Everyone running to the rescue of Mage, all the muses and voices of reason coming together yet, they themselves silent when others were in same predicament. Remember what Ulfric said, "Keep your brother and he'll keep you?"

Mage doesn't need people to 'rescue' him. Once again; you can go all sarcastic - it doesn't change a thing. Also, the fact that you stand up for one person in a debate, doesn't mean you have do that for everybody. I am not responsible for others in debates like this.

According to you and Mage most things I say are strange. Doesn't make them any less accurate.

The only thing that's strange is that you keep recycling arguments that have been proven wrong.

Yeah but I've never really changed though. I can change my picture or whatever but the message has always been the same, at least the philosophy behind it. Also, I'm not the 'spokesman' for anyone, I'm not the one giving people pl*ps for changing their views until now, because this thread needs heros and there's no one else but us... wait what?

Haha, so there's nothing radical about 'ALL HAIL THE EMPIRE!' in full caps? That can't really be explained as neutrality. That is a clear pro-empire quote. And it doesn't take long for it to be changed to 'ALL HAIL THE ALDMERI DOMINION'.

If you have such a problem with me helping the Empire, Anouck, then I suggest you reflect on Ancano's dialogue, Elenwen's and maybe Ondolomor's. Part of the WGC is for the Thalmor to help the Empire transition from a society that worships obsolete Gods and hates Elves, to something different, which the EMPIRE agreed to do. Has nothing to do with me.

Here's the thing. If a person disagrees with you, there are often two things you do.
1: you say they disagree therefor they don't understand your point.
2: a person disagrees therefor they have a problem with you.
I do not have a problem with you or defending the Empire. I've done a fair share of Empire defending myself in the past few months. All I do, is pointing out a few things.

So that's enough, I'll be on my way now and hopefully you guys won't have to listen to me anymore. Think of this... as a fresh start for both of us. I've been trying to head out for a while now, however there's really no longer any point in sticking around here. Not to mention I'm still fighting over my job. As much Greed and Malice as I've seen in Corporate America almost makes me not blame you guys for going Stormcloak. However, I could never do that, not seriously at least. But I have no problem at all saving an Empire which maybe made some mistakes in the past and realizing this, has repented themselves now.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the Thalmor 100%. I've said this more times than I can remember. I also remember, the Empire from Oblivion and am a little disappointed at how the Mede's have been running the Empire. Sure, I'm glad the Thalmor and the Dominion have risen, but that doesn't mean on some levels I can't help but feel sorry for the Empire... Not Talos, but the Empire. I'm like an open book, you can easily find everything I stand for in my signature line, if you can't understand it or disagree with it, so be it.

It is my hope in TES VI we can see either the same or greater cooperation between the Empire and Thalmor. This is it for me and I'm gone from this thread and forum, although I might still check my email on occasion.

Nena...

You try to leave almost as often as you change sides. You know you'll come back. You always do.

 

[Dram]

The way I see it:
If you are neutral or no 'spokesmen' for a particular faction, don't show favoring. Take a neutral avatar and a neutral signature. If you don't do that and put pro-empire or pro-thalmor quotes in your sig depending on who you like most today, people are going to notice that. Especially when it is full caps ALL HAIL THE EMPIRE. There's nothing neutral about that. You really paint yourself as a spokesmen for the empire when you do that.

 

[Raijin]

I changed sides once in two years, I can't be taken seriously.

You've changed sides more times than can be counted, often twice on the same page...

I can change sides too you know

 

[Raijin]

Dram

That is like saying it is Skyrim's fault the Empire banned Talos. Empire abandons the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Redguards and now Nords.

Don't be hating on other abandoned folk.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I'm starting to become a Dark elf hater. I find them far more annoying than the high elves from the Thalmor.

That only suits your Stormcloak position.

Perhaps you'd find the Thalmor more annoying if they were constantly present at someplace other than the few you encounter in the wilderness. Maybe someone should make a mod with a Thalmor quarter in Solitude, that would fit the Hearthfire dialogue from the little girls.

 

[Dram]

Dram

That is like saying it is Skyrim's fault the Empire banned Talos. Empire abandons the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Redguards and now Nords.

Don't be hating on other abandoned folk.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I can change sides too you know

"Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that." - Ahtar

 

[imaginepageant]

...Like your signature:
From 4E 176 - 4E 180 (4 YEARS) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stood by and DID. NOTHING. AT. ALL. to assist Hammerfell against the Thalmor." - NENALATA
Didn't this argument got countered over and over again? Ulfric was a soldier in the Legion back then. Blaming him for doing 'nothing' is like blaming Hadvar/Ralof for not stopping the Thalmor. Also, Ulfric was in prison during that time. He couldn't do anything, even if he wanted to.

JIGGA WHAT? Does this NENALATA person do any sort of research at all before speaking?

First of all, the Stormcloaks, as we know them, didn't even exist until after the Markarth Incident, which happened in 176... so they couldn't have done anything to help Hammerfell in 176 before they existed or during their conception in the Markarth Incident.

After which, Ulfric was arrested and put into jail. Can't do much from there.

When he was released, he returned to Windhelm to succeed his father, who died during his incarceration, as Jarl of Eastmarch. What would Ulfric's priorities have been then: to run off to Hammerfell to help them fight the Thalmor, or to stay in Eastmarch to do his duty of ruling his hold? Hmmm...

And anyway, why would they help Hammerfell against the Thalmor? The Stormcloaks' objectives have always been first and foremost to free Skyrim from the Empire's corruption, and to restore worship of Talos to the Nords. Once that goal is reached in the civil war, Ulfric speaks of readying Skyrim to defend against likely imminent attacks by the Dominion. So, where in all of this does Hammerfell come in? Why would he leave behind the country he's fighting for to help another against a threat that's far too big for him and his militia to deal with?

You want to blame Ulfric for not helping Hammerfell against the Thalmor? Well, let's turn it around. Where was Hammerfell when Skyrim needed help against the Thalmor and the Empire? Why didn't they come running in to help the Stormcloaks? For that matter, where in Oblivion were the Bosmer? The Argonians? Why didn't High Rock rally their forces to help the Stormcloaks? I'll tell you why: because it wasn't their battle to fight. Just like Hammerfell's battle with the Thalmor wasn't Ulfric's to fight.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Wow...what in gods' names happened to this thread?

Drunken's done a good job proving his overall point - which is that when it comes to debating the lore, the true exercise is being able to understand both sides and argue both with equal ferocity.

I see Raijin has become...anti-Stormcloak? Well, I commend him for it not least of all because it's all in good humor and it's again a good exercise.

I argued for the Stormcloaks for a bit, because I wanted a challenge. And while I can understand that position, it wasn't satisfying. I think that's what all of this really comes down to. And it's one reason why I sort of fell out of arguing in this thread. It's interesting to watch all of this now and NENALATA, I admire your stamina for this. I've been on the lonely side of one vs. the plurality when it comes to civil war debates before, and it's not something I have patience for anymore.

There's so much information in this thread though, it's rather incredible.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I admire your stamina for this. I've been on the lonely side of one vs. the plurality when it comes to civil war debates before, and it's not something I have patience for anymore.

I've been alone against majority in many debates, where is my admiration...

 

[Docta Corvina]

I admire your stamina for this. I've been on the lonely side of one vs. the plurality when it comes to civil war debates before, and it's not something I have patience for anymore.

I've been alone against majority in many debates, where is my admiration...

Pffft, you know I've praised you and admired you in that before! Many times before!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Pffft, you know I've praised you and admired you in that before! Many times before!

I enjoy my daily ego stroking.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Pffft, you know I've praised you and admired you in that before! Many times before!

I enjoy my daily ego stroking.

Daily stroking, what?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Pffft, you know I've praised you and admired you in that before! Many times before!

I enjoy my daily ego stroking.

Daily stroking, what?

 

[Jeremius]

Pffft, you know I've praised you and admired you in that before! Many times before!

I enjoy my daily ego stroking.

Daily stroking, what?

I got a totally different picture from this reaction, but then saw the previous post. LOL.

 

[NENALATA]

Good Lord. Settle down children.

Anyways, a friend of mine on here pm'd me and asked that I come back to straighten things out. Alas, it can't be done.

As Anouck has pointed out, defending both sides is just fine however... I really need to pick one and stay there. Perhaps some of you guys got the wrong idea.

It's impossible for me to explain. I come from... mmm... a different neighborhood you might say. I'm also not blind to everyone's favorite DrunkenMage being painted in a bad light. But where were you all before minus Anouck? It doesn't matter however I do hope you know what I'm saying... well... mmm... Jeremius prob knows what I'm saying and I'll settle with what I can get.

Still, Anouck is right and this madness needs to end so you guys can get back to this noble enterprise minus my intrigue. Even though I may mean well, it's a little weird to have both factions listed as hail this or go that.

Although keep in mind, choosing an defacto faction is not really a requirement on here and out of 'fairness' I try to see where everyone is coming from, including the Stormcloaks.

I've also seen some of the new people on here who have it out for me, yet, I've never seen you before.

So, anyways... OMG this Taco Bell is flffing horrible. Damn. Tha fl*ff!?!?!

Anyways, the thing is, I can't really choose between the two. I'm torn. Sometimes I like me a little Thalmor with my Imperial and vice versa.

Or can I? I mean, technically speaking by accepting the WGC, that brings the Empire almost to the point of some kind of vassal state of the Thalmor. Almost. Allow me to consider this and I'll get back, like if the two sides had a war and I was forced to choose which I had said before would be a hard choice to make.

But in the meantime, calm down guys. No one got near this upset when 'the special people' on here did worse. I might even be tempted to remove that post, worked hard on that post too, but I would expect the same from Mage's side. Which won't ever happen.

 

[Jeremius]

NENALATA: What are you saying right now?

 

[NENALATA]

Alright, so I found a pretty good faction quiz here:


http://www.quotev.com/quiz/1322536/Stormcloak-or-Imperial-what-side-should-you-join/


There was one or two others I took as well, earlier today, at work. Hahaha - Ah-ha.


And seriously, though, this is a pretty good quiz and I took it both times as an Altmer and Breton. Results were uncanny. I guess, that... in my mind, the Thalmor are what everyone should aspire to acquire: Money, Power, Wisdom, for surely the Thalmor have that.

But in my heart... well... ermm... I don't have one. Regardless, for some reason I am actually as a person more Imperial in nature. Every quiz reflected this and I swear to God I wasn't being biased.

So I'm an Imperial and we'll leave it at that. However, just because I'm an Imperial, doesn't mean I like the way my Gov is handling things, including Titus Mede II. So... let's just have his head and be done with it. He gave up too much and he hadn't the right. But, that does not mean entire Empire should fall apart because of him. Of course, sometimes you just have to have faith, which is something I'm seeing more and more everyday... another Imperial trait.


If I did like Ulfric and fly off the handle at everyone who wronged me or told me I was wrong, I'd go crazy or crazyier rather and make everyone miserable. Of course, if I had to make concessions for my good, result is the same. Maybe it's just the scenario or maybe it's just the person. Although, you can't very well have an Empire of any kind without having faith and patience, that is being patient with people you hate.

Now we're done. I've done as much right on my end as I can do. I also realize that perhaps Mage realized the same thing on some level. Perhaps he is a Stormcloak deep down. Maybe I didn't want to accept this, but, that's not my choice to make. I'll remove the post and Mage, I've noticed you've actually changed for the better since the... 'before time'. lol you did get pretty worked up over that post, maybe there is still an Imperial in there somewhere. Maybe we'll never know.

​

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, or Empress"​

"...and unwavering obedience to the officers of this great Empire."​

"May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty."​

​

"Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"​

So there. The two most offensive posts are gone. I do hope you would be willing to share the same courtesy, won't you? I've done right on my end, what you do now or don't do, reveals what kind of a person you really are and whether or not you prove me right.

Goodbye.​

 

[DrunkenMage]

Skyrim is the birthplace of humanity. The birthplace of honor. And those snowbacked Imperials renounced both when they laid down before the Thalmor. Worse still, to pay for the privilege to keep his throne, the Emperor sells Skyrim and our very gods - Talos, no less! - To the damn elves. And what did Torygg do? He and the Jarls that supported him? They took the Emperor's gold. Sold out their people for a slave master's "peace treaty." Ulfric did right by killing him. Soon we'll rid Skyrim of elves, their bloody Justiciars, and the Jarls in their pockets. The whole damn lot of them. And we'll cleave through the Legion to get to them.