Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Squirrel_killer-]

We have to look at it from all sides, not just one. I am in no way defending Ulfric, merely defending the nords. Surely if a nord went to another place in tamriel besides skyrim, he would be persecuted just as other races are in skyrim. Nord opinions should matter in skyrim, because they honestly kind of own skyrim, just like the high elves own Summerset Isles and the imperials own Cyrodiil. It isn't right that the nords should have to follow the ban on the worshipping of Talos, because of the White-Gold Concordat. The imperials knew the nords held Talos sacred, but they did not hold him in such high regard, so banning the worship of Talos was an easy agreement for them to make, knowing damn well the nords would be pissed.

In that respect, Ulfric was not the man to do it. He is greedy for power and to me, he would be more of a tyrant masking as a great king. You should for all people in your land to make a great king, and this is something Ulfric would not do. He even abused the power of the voice, which is something that should not be used in the way Ulfric did it, the greybeards do not train you in the power of the voice just so you can kill others for your own political agenda.

I do not regret that I killed Ulfric Stormcloak, but I do regret not driving the empire out of skyrim.

Actually the Imperials hold Tiber Septim in just as much regard as Tiber Septim and his line come from Cyrodiil. The Empire actually sort of owns Skyrim and have for hundreds of years. The Nords are also one of the least persecuted races in the Empire from my experience. Your knowledge of lore seems to be limited. And you also seem to confuse the Imperials as a race with the Empire. Every member of the Empire is an Imperial, which is not a race but a term mean "of the Empire". The race is a different story and may actually hold Tiber Septim to the highest regard second only to the Nords.

 

[El Fonz0]

I didn't have any problems with these barbaric beast until Dawnguard came out, and I fount out what they did. When I first came hear, I said that I hated the Nords temporarily or something like that; I take that back.

"I will hate the Nords until the day I die!"
-- All of my Skyrim characters (a bit weird being that my vampiric assassin, Zevran, is a Nord; he just hates his own kind!)

Why are you racist to the Nords? Don't blame the Nords of today for what the Nords of the past have done. Besides, most Nords have always hated Elves. It's cause they're Nords.

 

[Tyrone]

WHEN IT ALL BOILS DOWN: Nords are the invading thieving barbarians who stole the land of a once peaceful and prosperous race of Snow Elves, which led to a chain of events that would lead to the near extinction of the race of Mer.

And the empire? A cowardly army for surrendering so easily to the Aldmeri Dominion, who care nothing for its people, as shown in trying to hand over Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.

The dark elves? they aren't pure at all, they worship daedric princes and used slavery on the argonians

The wood elves? cannibalism is a part of their culture, surely they are barbarians

Khajiit? Thieves whose main desire is moon sugar

High elves? They truly only care for themselves, and kill off wood elves in purges we never hear about

My point, no race in the elder scrolls has been just. What you guys are saying is that since one of my ancestors, of all of the thousands, was a murderer or something, that I should die modern day...

 

[Exelex]

You know a good reason why the worship of Tiber Septim was banned, to me? He isn't a "true" or "honest" deity. He may of not even ascended to godhood at all. If he did ascend, it is possible that he did so by mantling Lorkhan.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

The dark elves? they aren't pure at all, they worship daedric princes and used slavery on the argonians

I really don't count Daedra worship as Evil.

 

[Tyrone]

Actually the Imperials hold Tiber Septim in just as much regard as Tiber Septim and his line come from Cyrodiil. The Empire actually sort of owns Skyrim and have for hundreds of years. The Nords are also one of the least persecuted races in the Empire from my experience. Your knowledge of lore seems to be limited. And you also seem to confuse the Imperials as a race with the Empire. Every member of the Empire is an Imperial, which is not a race but a term mean "of the Empire". The race is a different story and may actually hold Tiber Septim to the highest regard second only to the Nords.

Imperials like Tiber Septim, but they do not worship him like the nords do. Notice in oblivion that the chapel of talos is in Bruma, the closest city to Skyrim and the northernmost in Cyrodiil, who gets its influences from both Skyrim and Morrowind. My knowledge of lore is good, no need to diss people here. And I am not confusing the race with the citizens, as I stated above they hold him in high regard but do not worship him as the nords do.

 

[Exelex]

Why are you racist to the Nords? Don't blame the Nords of today for what the Nords of the past have done. Besides, most Nords have always hated Elves. It's cause they're Nords.

I'm not being a racist at all, sir! I'm just stating the reasons why I 'dislike' the Nords. And it's not being racist when I used to like them and even have a character that's a Nord, further justifying that I didn't previously hate the Nords. Get it straight.

And the empire? A cowardly army for surrendering so easily to the Aldmeri Dominion, who care nothing for its people, as shown in trying to hand over Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.

The dark elves? they aren't pure at all, they worship daedric princes and used slavery on the argonians

The wood elves? cannibalism is a part of their culture, surely they are barbarians

Khajiit? Thieves whose main desire is moon sugar

High elves? They truly only care for themselves, and kill off wood elves in purges we never hear about

My point, no race in the elder scrolls has been just. What you guys are saying is that since one of my ancestors, of all of the thousands, was a murderer or something, that I should die modern day...

Your right, and I agree with you. All of the races have their flaws, but I dislike the Nords for their actions in the pass.

 

[El Fonz0]

I'm not being a racist at all, sir! I'm just stating the reasons why I 'dislike' the Nords. And it's not being racist when I used to like them and even have a character that's a Nord, further justifying that I didn't previously hate the Nords. Get it straight.


Your right, and I agree with you. All of the races have their flaws, but I dislike the Nords for their actions in the pass.

Disliking Nords for what they have done in the past is an ignorant way of thinking. By that logic, people should "dislike" Germans and British for what their people have done in the past.

There are no clean hands in history. Why should the Dark Elves get off easy for enslaving just about anything that enters their land? Why should the Dwemer get off easy for turning an entire race of elves into twisted beasts? Why should the Snow Elves get off easy for slaughtering an entire Nordic settlement, leaving only three Nords alive?

 

[Exelex]

Disliking Nords for what they have done in the past is an ignorant way of thinking. By that logic, people should "dislike" Germans and British for what their people have done in the past.

There are no clean hands in history. Why should the Dark Elves get off easy for enslaving just about anything that enters their land? Why should the Dwemer get off easy for turning an entire race of elves into twisted beasts? Why should the Snow Elves get off easy for slaughtering an entire Nordic settlement, leaving only three Nords alive?

No, it doesn't mean that in the slightest.

 

[El Fonz0]

No, it doesn't mean that in the slightest.

Well, that's what you're implying, by saying you "dislike" Nords for fighting the Snow Elves.

 

[Exelex]

Well, that's what you're implying, by saying you "dislike" Nords for fighting the Snow Elves.

No. My logic of dislike towards the Nords shouldn't effect the hate towards other races of Skyrim nor in modern time, because the reason the Nords are hated by people is different from the reason why other races are hated.

 

[Jeremius]

Imperials like Tiber Septim, but they do not worship him like the nords do. Notice in oblivion that the chapel of talos is in Bruma, the closest city to Skyrim and the northernmost in Cyrodiil, who gets its influences from both Skyrim and Morrowind. My knowledge of lore is good, no need to diss people here. And I am not confusing the race with the citizens, as I stated above they hold him in high regard but do not worship him as the nords do.

The empire had shrines to Talos in their chapels in oblivion, and probably still did until the emperor agreed to the original demands of the Thalmor. Why did the emperor not try to placate the high elves somehow, say with some territory in Cyrodil or safe passage to conquer the argonians?

Also, the amulet of Talos on Mede is what, jewelry? I do not hold much stock in the Wikis, so someone correct me, but among his personal effects is an Amulet of Talos.

In my book, though Mede is a good person, he is a hypocrite. That is slightly worse than a racist who is willing to die for what he believes in.

 

[The OP3RaT0R]

You know a good reason why the worship of Tiber Septim was banned, to me? He isn't a "true" or "honest" deity. He may of not even ascended to godhood at all. If he did ascend, it is possible that he did so by mantling Lorkhan.

That is the exact reason for why the Thalmor outlawed his worship. In the pantheon of the races of men he acended, but in the Elven pantheon nobody can become a god.

 

[Jeremius]

That is the exact reason for why the Thalmor outlawed his worship. In the pantheon of the races of men he acended, but in the Elven pantheon nobody can become a god.

then why does his shrines, both in Skyrim AND Oblivion give certain effects?

 

[The OP3RaT0R]

then why does his shrines, both in Skyrim AND Oblivion give certain effects?

Because all of the pantheons of gods exist in Tamriel. It's kind of confusing, but the best explanation I can give is that gods in TES are like ideas, but are individuals at the same time. The Elves reject the idea of Talos, but he still exists. It makes little sense I know. Here's a quote from a different forum that explains it well:

"A god is a high level idea: through subgradience the idea fractures and forms lower ideas. This can be human interpretations of gods, human incarnations of gods, and if you go down far enough, even shrines and preists. All of these take their power from the high level god (who is also subgradient, but whatever.) "

 

[Jeremius]

Both sides talk about preparing for war. Here is how I believe the Thalmor see it

1. Independent Skyrim=BAD
2. Empire-controlled Skyrim=Little better but still bad

If Skyrim became Independent, then the Dominion would have to get their army into fighting shape rather quickly as an army of angry Nords wanting to Kill you for banning their god is the LAST thing you want charging into your turf. The empire on the other hand, the Thalmor can take their time recovering as I am sure there is not a time limit on the WGC and the Thalmor will probably push for more concessions while they recover to full strength.

Thoughts?

 

[Mr1cammando]

Both sides talk about preparing for war. Here is how I believe the Thalmor see it

1. Independent Skyrim=BAD
2. Empire-controlled Skyrim=Little better but still bad

If Skyrim became Independent, then the Dominion would have to get their army into fighting shape rather quickly as an army of angry Nords wanting to Kill you for banning their god is the LAST thing you want charging into your turf. The empire on the other hand, the Thalmor can take their time recovering as I am sure there is not a time limit on the WGC and the Thalmor will probably push for more concessions while they recover to full strength.


Thoughts?

I think that if the Stormcloaks were to destroy one of the most successful militaries in Tamriel, they would be heavily depleted. They wouldn't have a strong enough military to repel any attackers. I imagine that the Empire might just march some reserves into Skyrim and retake what they could. Then, of course, the Dominion might get involved in the Skyrim landgrab and try to take some Northern Territory for themselves.

Just my two-cents.

 

[Jeremius]

I think that if the Stormcloaks were to destroy one of the most successful militaries in Tamriel, they would be heavily depleted. They wouldn't have a strong enough military to repel any attackers. I imagine that the Empire might just march some reserves into Skyrim and retake what they could. Then, of course, the Dominion might get involved in the Skyrim landgrab and try to take some Northern Territory for themselves.

Just my two-cents.

Maybe the Emperor would write the empire itself off as a lost cause? cannot tell the future, just saying that the fact that they want the war to continue means that they do not want either side to win Skyrim.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

What would Talos do though, in the same situation? Would he accept the treaty knowing it was essentially enslavement? I doubt it.

How is this enslavement at all? Why are you throwing words like that around when it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about?

In my opinion, banning Talos worship is like taking all that Talos stands for, all the Empire stands for, putting it in the trash and pushing that trashcan off a cliff. Plus, the Redguards drove out the Thalmor, so I would say that an independent Skyrim has a good chance on the defense. Going after them, now that is a whole other story.

Tiber Septim founded the Empire, a nation which operated under values such as diplomacy and peace. He'd want the Empire to continue, even through hardships such as this. This is war, things needed to be given up to ensure there was no more death or destruction. The signing of the concordant wasn't anymore "cowardly" than Ulfric giving up information to his Thalmor interrogators. (See Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak.) Both the Empire and it's people had been ravaged, they needed to buy time.

Furthermore it's commonly stated the Redguards are known as the greatest warriors in Tamriel, and were fighting a severely weakened force who were out of their element in the deserts of Hammerfell.

Also, if you did not read the lore, The dominion's attacking force was crushed as well.

Not in the same way the Empire was, the Isles weren't devastated and it's people weren't killed.

 

[azali100]

The empire had shrines to Talos in their chapels in oblivion, and probably still did until the emperor agreed to the original demands of the Thalmor. Why did the emperor not try to placate the high elves somehow, say with some territory in Cyrodil or safe passage to conquer the argonians?

Also, the amulet of Talos on Mede is what, jewelry? I do not hold much stock in the Wikis, so someone correct me, but among his personal effects is an Amulet of Talos.

In my book, though Mede is a good person, he is a hypocrite. That is slightly worse than a racist who is willing to die for what he believes in.

The Elves would have not been satisfied with anything but the banning of Talos because this is part of thier ultimate goal. They WANT Talos to be forgotten and they want him to lose his influence. The want to become immortal or gods or something.

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