Spartan117JMC
That's not Batman... its... its BUTTMAN :D
Different Theories connectded together + FAQ from the UESP and other sites have now come together... i have done humongous amounts of research and boiled it down to one huge theory...
A lot to read but to really get it you HAVE to read it all.
DRAGONBORN IS YSMIR/TALOS/LORKHAN
"It was in the Late Merethic Era that the pre-literate humans, the so-called "Nedic Peoples", from the continent of Atmora Atmora (also 'Altmora' or 'the Elder Wood' in Aldmeris) migrated and settleed (sic) in northern Tamriel. The Nord culture hero Ysgramor, leader of a great colonizing fleet to Tamriel, is credited with developing a runic transcription of Nord speech based on Elvish principles, and so Ysgramor is considered the first human historian. Ysgramor's fleet landed at Hsaarik Head at the extreme northern tip of Skyrim's Broken Cape. The Nords built there the legendary city of Saarthal. The Elves drove the Men away during the Night of Tears, but Ysgramor soon returned with his Five Hundred Companions.
Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again."
Given the random nature of this character, the fact that he is described as doing many of the things our game character does, and the fact that Ysmir is the nordic aspect of Talos, and is also called the Dragon of the North, a title bestowed upon the Dragonborn by the Greybeards who bestowed it upon Ysmir in the first place, it seems within reason that the new Dragonborn (or the Last Dragonborn as the prophecy states) is the next incarnation of of Talos.
By Martin destroying the Amulet of Kings he opened the way for a New Talos to come, one who could be anyone, not necessarily an Imperial and most importantly not a Septim. A possible reason for the outlaw of Talos is more because of the fact that the representation of Talos is a Statue of Tiber Septim. The elves dislike Talos for that reason but in reality I think Talos is the elves best hope of realizing their dreams, they dislike the worship of Talos because they see it as a Man who became a god, but the more lore that I read the more I see that Talos is the idea that a Mortal, any mortal, could become Talos, but there can only be one Talos at a time. The way the Champion of Cyrodiil becomes The Deadric Prince of Madness, The Dragonborn, through his actions, could take on the aspect of Talos.
Talos was given the title Ysmir by the greybeards aswell but the actuall name talos was given to tiber septim once he became a divine so the Dragonborn wouldnt be a reincarnation of Talos unless Tiber septim himself was influencing the dragonborns actions and the dragon born attained divine status but Ysmir is the dragon of the north so both the Dragonborn and talos would be a reincarnation of Ysmir himself, as opposed to just a title given to them, also the dragon mask Konahriik which you can find in labarynthian is supposedly to lore the mask made to worship Ysmir so wearing that mask suits the setting very well if you are in to being a true reincarnation of Ysmir
Nirnian metaphysics permit a phenomenon called mantling, where by fulfilling the archetype of a metaphysically significant figure, you can sort of grow into being something analogous to our concept of their reincarnation -- you take on their mantle.
The Dragonborn is almost certainly mantling Tiber Septim, just as the Nerevanin, the protagonist of Morrowind, mantled Nerevar. But Nirnian metaphysics may not permit anything more like reincarnation than that. And it's not reincarnation -- others had attempted to mantle Nerevar and succeeded partway before dying.
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TOWER'S OF NIRN
Metaphysics: The First Tower and the Wheel
First of all we have to define Metaphysics: it is the study of primary causes regarding the foundation of the world with regards to cosmology and existence, thus thought and reality are its primary domains.
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The Towers of the Nirn universe.In the beginning there were the two primal forces of the world, Anu (order) and Padhome (chaos), both living in separate ways. However, in one instance these two entities overlap like a venn diagram in which is creates a neutral void in a stated called Aurbis.
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The first two Et'Ada were Akatosh and Sithis, further extensions of Anu and Padhome. Each spirit wanted their own rule over Aurbis. Now, within Aurbis was created a 'wheel' at the center. The importance of the wheel was not immediately recognized when other et'ada populated the expanse. To think of the wheel image an actual wheel, it has eight spokes and sixteen dark expanses within it. This is the domains of the eight divines and sixteen voids of Oblivion (this is one of the principle reasons that makes Talos an odd figure for a divine, and there are more than sixteen voids we know of not to mention seventeen Daedric princes). In the center of that wheel is a meeting of all aspects which was called the 'hub' which would become Mundus.
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When Mundus was created a large number of et'ada left. One of the greatest of which was Magnus. He was the god of magic and the architect who planned Mundus (Lorkhan was used to create the physical Mundus but he didn't do any of the actual preliminary ground work). Magnus grew uneasy about it and 'left', in doing so his departure tore a hole in Aetherius which became the sun which is still known as Magnus. Soon after many other spirits left, they were called the Magna Ge and left other smaller holes which are the stars. From those holes magic seeps into Mundus where as before there would have been none. It was during this time Lorkhan saw the 'wheel' on its side and said it was not just a wheel, rather it was a tower (cross section looks like an I). This was the first tower realized, the expanse of Mundus is the first tower.
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Towers and Stones
Magnus left which led to a convening of the Divines. They created a single physical tower called the Adamantine tower which is on the island of Balfiera between Hammerfell and High Rock. It was infused with the power of creation by a single 'stone' which powered it; this was called the Zero stone. There were still the eight Divines and when realizing what Lorkhan had done they punished him which infused Nirn with divine power which had Lorkhan's heart torn out and thrown into Red Mountain. This became the Red Tower and its stone was that of Lorkhan's heart. This impregnation of Nirn by the Heart of Lorkhan allowed the Divines to leave Nirn without it becoming unraveled while the Zero stone provided linearity of existence.
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Each tower has a founding stone that provides the focus and power. Where as the first two were divinely inspired in creation and divinity which allowed for a linear time and mortal existence, the others were created by the Aldmeri to mimic the others. The stones are imbued with creatia magic not from Oblivion, but from a place outside Oblivion, Aetherius (It can be easy to think of the towers much in the same respect as what sigil stones were to Daedric realms in Oblivion). The rest of these were build by the Aldmeri in imitation of the first tower and used to bring stability as the Aldmeri understood it.
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Adamantine Tower: also called the Ur-tower is the first tower that the Divines created and held a meeting in. It is on the island of Balfiera between Hammerfell and High Rock and takes the image of a single metal cylinder extending upwards and downwards into the ground. It is considered an active tower with its stone being called the Zero-stone, which is the aspect of creation.
Red Tower: the Red tower is Red Mountain in Vvardenfell. Its stone was the Heart of Lorkhan. It was inactive following the events of Morrowind and destroyed in the eruption early in the forth era.
White Gold Tower: The White gold tower dominates the Imperial city on the isle and was built by the Ayleids. It was said to have the stone Chim-el Adabal, the central crystal in the amulet of Kings that was meant for refocusing the powers of creation to 'reach' the divines and not let the power of magic disseminate. Thus while others bind magic and bleed it the white gold tower harnessed the power of creation; in this manner it is said to be the unique 'wheel within a wheel'. (Remember when asking an Imperial for guard for directions? he mentions the city divided into sections like (the spokes of a wheel)
Crystal-like-law: The Crystal tower, much like the Adamantine and White-gold tower is a physical tower in Alinor within the Summerset Isles. It was said to be the foremost place of magical research after the arcane university and was destroyed during the Oblivion crisis.
Green-Sap: We have no idea what the Green-Sap tower is for sure, but conventional theory points to it being the walking city of Falenesti in Valenwood. It's stone is not known but it became inactive sometime prior to the events of Oblivion and after Tiber Septim's conquest of Valenwood and the writing of the First Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Epire.
Orichalc: Tower is unknown, and the stone is unknown. If what was said to be correct regarding the towers created by the Aldmeri, then it's possible that the tower and stone may be with the Maormer. This seems to fit with the Nu-Mantia mantra that all life originated on Tamriel and spread out from there.
Walk-Brass: Tower is unknown, and the stone is unknown. While there is speculation that this is Numidium the Chimer followed the prophet Veloth away from the Aldmer and towards it. However, Numidium is shall we say, fickle with time. Thus it may very well be a dragon break that made them wander towards it before the machine was even built by Kagranac the Dwarf. It's stone is said to be destruction or more specifically 'dis-creation'.
Snow Throat: The Snow Throat tower is usually interpreted as the Throat of the World atop High Hrothgar in Skyrim. The stone is unknown but the peak was called 'half-here' (for those who have finished the primary story there is an important tie in for this).
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Speculation on Disintegration:
So what happens if the towers all collapse? It's never expressly stated but the destruction of each seems to indicate that the world will come apart. The eight towers provide pillars of support for the world and without those it would tear itself apart and return to its original state of being. This isn't to say that it is death; it could be the elven ideal of returning to Aetherius. The prevailing notion of thought is that upon death on Nirn people may return to Aetherius, where they are caught before time in a 'dream sleeve', subjected to amnesiac traumas, and returned to Nirn as a reincarnation.It's a decidedly dystopian method of thought in that regard.
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Yet it was the Aldmeri who created the six remaining towers and as such brought stability to the world. If all the towers were undone then that eternal cycle of death would cease and Mundus would vanish back into the primordial state of being devoid of pain and unbound by the laws of physics and reality; time and space would have no meaning, neither would despair or discord. In essence, it could very well be a free ticket to heaven.
Thalmor are trying to erase mankind from existence, and the things that are stopping them are the eight towers:
Crystal Tower
Red Tower
Tree-sap
Orchalc
Khajiit
all of which were destroyed or deactivated. The most significant and only remaining one are the Brass Tower and Snow-Throat, or the Throat of the World. The Brass Tower was cast out of time. The tower may have a spiritual connection with Numidium, the brass god, and the disappearance of the tower and therefore Numidium may tie in with the disappearance of the Dwemer. Snow Throat is the only active one. Each of these towers have stones which bind them to Nirn, and the theorist concluded that the Weynon Stones bound Snow Throat. This is why the Thalmor have been waging war on Skyrim; so they can destroy Snow Throat or the Weynon Stones, either way destroying the last tower and wiping mankind from existence.
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TALOS
Talos, once known as Tiber Septim, Ysmir, or the Dragonborn, Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, is the greatest hero-god of Mankind, and is worshipped as the protector and patron of just rulership and civil society.
Tiber Septim conquered all of Tamriel and began the Third Era, as well the Third Empire. At his death he ascended to godhood as the God of War. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult, were inspired by his apotheosis.
Known as Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North and Dragonborn, he is also invoked as patron of questing heroes. He is referred to as the One in the phrase "The Eight and the One", as there were originally only Eight Divines before Tiber Septim ascended to godhood.
In The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Tiber Septim makes an appearance as his avatar "Wulf".
In the nevest addition to The Elderscrolls series: Skyrim, Talos may just aswell be the player, the Dragonborn.
The Thalmor seek to end the world. They dont want to end the kalpa and start a new one as Alduin has done many times before; they seek to end the entire cycle and return to how things were before time. Unlike humans, who believe the gods created life and thus revere Lorkhan (now Talos), elves believe that they existed before time as spirits and were forced by the gods into the cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
This is why the Thalmor hate Talos and want to create war. Talos mantled Lorkhan, so is is Lorkhan, and they hate the god who started creation. Constant war helps them keep the world in chaos so they can destroy the remaining towers holding the wheel of the world together.
Also the Thalmor do not actually believe Talos isn't a god. They know he is, but just hate him and want's his undoing.
As Talos is Ysmir and Ysmir King of Snow Tower "By graybeards saying" thus he is the Stone connected to the Snow Tower, if he is removed... Snow Tower falls and the world with it.
"Thalmor are actually trying to get ground in Markarth, as they believe the way to the Snow Tower itself is underneath the city."
"The Mountain is the Housing, High Hrothgar the Outpost and the core wich is beleaved to reside below the mountain is what the Thalmor want.
It is this whloe Entity of Core Outpost and Mountain wich is called Snow Tower."
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Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. In his mortal form, known as Tiber Septim, he conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). After death, his spirit ascended to the heavens to become the ninth and youngest divine, under his birth name of Talos. Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. One of the Nine Divines, the major gods worshipped throughout Tamriel. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult have been inspired by his apotheosis. In the Fourth Era, worship of Talos was banned as a result of the White-Gold Concordat. However, many of the Nords of Skyrim continued to revere him despite these strict terms.
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"When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls I: Arena where the Staff of Chaos is divided into eight pieces and scattered.
When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall where the Brass God (originally Dwarven Numidium) is operated and the possible endings.
When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind where the Tribunal, the three Dunmer gods: Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha sil who acquired their immortality through the Heart of Lorkhan, lose their immortality after the Heart is destroyed and perhaps the following events that lead to the eruption of the Red Mountain.
"When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion which leads to the Imperial City being left without a dragonborn ruler and the temporary occupation of the city (with White Tower as its symbol) by Mehrunes Dagon's forces.
"When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding" refers, of course, to the currents event of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim where Skyrim (with Throat of the World, or Snow Tower, as its symbol) is "sundered" due to civil war, its High King Torryg is killed by Ulfric and the province is essentially bleeding.
{{Snow tower is Bleeding, it has no stone, high king is dead, when you kill your first dragon the Snow Tower awakens and the this is sensed by the greybeards wich in turn calls upon you}}
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COMMENTS FOUND ON THE WEB
Interesting that there are 8 towers - seems to be a reoccurring number in the Elderscrolls Series.
In theory (going on a thought) if all eight towers were to be destroyed it would be the end times "immortal"
then the world of nirn is balanced solely on the remaining 3-4 towers...let me clarify....each tower has a stone with out that stone its a "dead" tower i.e destroyed or what not as the tower is no longer "alive" with out its stone ...> walking brass has long since been destroyed if it is indeed numidium
..........> white gold tower is dead since the amulet of kings was its stone it was destroyed no stone no tower though in relitivity the tower stands in theory its dead
........> Red Mt ...gone...dead in the "RED YEAR"
......> Crystal tower..gone...oblivion crisis
.......> throat of the world......> stone is unknown...
that leaves only 3 towers left 4 depending on your actions in skyrim
the series of TES games take's you closer to the end times...."in theory of course"
also if there are 16 voids 17 daedric princes 1 daedra is the odd ball in my view peryite whould be the odd ball since he is just a mail man with no void or plane so to speak that means in my opinion
talos is in fact the aedra version of peryite seeing as no exact "spoke" is there to represent him wich makes sense seeing as he played a messnger in the imperial cult quest lines in the game morrowind under the npc name wulf
That said, I very much agree and put it in the Altmeri Thalmor section that a prayer to Talos is essentially Lorkhan/Shor. If he's not the living god then he's simply the transference of Nords so they can worship Shor by another namer. The thing is that while Lorkhan's body was torn in half, several religions such as the Khajiit mention that the spirit of Shor was merely sent to the wrold as something of a formless wanderer, which of course fits the Cyrodiilic Shezzar as the 'spirit of human endeavors'. Likewise, the Altmeri Heart of the World version whcih I ascribe to says that Lorkhan can't be destroyed as so long as Nirn exists he's bound to the world itself even after Trinimac tore his heart out.
But yes, it seems slowly but surely Nirn is ending and reality will deteriorate and eventually cease to exist. At least, that what it seems to say, we don't exactly know for sure, because it's essentially glorified 'fan-fics' of the authors it's impossible to know exactly. I do like the elven take on it, destroy the world, everything gets better again... but I haven't a clue what would happen.
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DRAGONBORN IS KING OF SKYRIM
had this conversation before with others but wish to revisit it after a recent play through uncovered something I missed the first time around that makes the case for the Dragon Born becoming King of Skyrim even stronger.
During a chat with Arngeir (One of the Greybeards), shortly after recognizing the Player as the Dragon Born, presents some dialog under the topic "What did you actually say", referring to the ceremony that recognizes the player as the Dragon Born that had just taken place.
The translation of what the Grey Beards say in the Dragon Language goes something like this (I filmed it btw, thats how I got these words).
Long has the Storm Crown Languished with no worthy brow to sit upon. By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
Let me explain the above passage and put some meat on those bones for you all
This goes very deep, so I'll skim the surface for the vital details, no point getting in to Talos and the Numidium story if we do not have too
Shor is the Nordic version Lorkhan.
Lorkhan is the God that tricked the other gods in to helping create Mundus and Nirn, Lorkhan became Mundus and Nirn and disappeared during the change, earning the name "the missing god" according to one version of events. He was considered to have died during the change and various versions of events all see the end of Lorkhan in some way.
The gods that helped became Aedra, the gods that did not became Daedra. Gods and Devils. The Aedra where not fully informed by Lorkhan of what happens next and so where left weak where as the Daedra went off to create their own Realms they had full power over and remained strong.
Lorkhan also earned the hatred of the Elves who felt they had been ripped out of the heavens by Lorkhans tricks and forced to suffer a mortal life on Nirn because of him.
Humans on the other hand saw him as the creator and protector against the Elves. Since the Elves have a bad reputation amongst the Nords for good reason, Lorkhan or Shor as the Nords call him, is nothing less than a mighty warrior that slayed their elven enemies.
Before Lorkhan doom at the hands of the other gods (according to another version of events, there are several btw, all official). Shor was King of Gods and is currently ruler of Sovngarde, the Nordic version of Heaven. So Shor is indeed dead according to various versions of events, according to the Nordic version he now rules in Sovngarde instead.
But as we know he manages to influences Mundus and Nirn when he needs too.
Kynes is the Window of Shor, the Nordic Goddess of Storms. Also known Kynareth to the Imperials. The god of Natural basically.
Atmora is the continent from where the Nords originally came from.
Ysmir "The Dragon of the North" is also known by these names.
"Ash King"
"Shors Tongue"
"Under King"
"Lorkhan"
"King Wulfharlth"
So when Arngeir says this...
Long has the Storm Crown Languished with no worthy brow to sit upon. By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
He actually says this...
Long Crown of Skrim has languished without a worther brow to sit upon. By our Voice (Breath and Voice mean the same thing in the Dragon language), we bestow it now to you in the name Kyne (Kynareth and Shors Window), In the Name of Shor (Lorkhan) and in the name of Atmora (Original homeland of the Nords). You are now Ysmir ("King Wulfharlth", King of the Nords, King of Skyrim), Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
Lorkhan being in all things can be in several places at once, in several people at once and so any reference to him should be considered as an apsect of Lorkhan appearing in the mortal realm and not literally Lorkhan because Lorkhan is dead remember, but not gone.
All hail the Dragon Born, King of Skyrim
One more thing, if the Dragon Born is Ysmir and Ysmir counts amongst his frienda Sho and is also blessed by Akatosh as the Dragon Born. Than means Sho the old King of the Gods and Akatosh the new King of the Gods both favour the Dragon Born.
A coming together of 2 very powerful gods to favour 1 mortal.
Think about that.
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BUGS IN A JAR THEORY "END OF THE WORLD (Nirn that is...)"
Throughout the frozen wasteland that plays host to the game there are a number of bugs trapped inside various jars. If you've played the game for an extended period of time, you've likely found one of these imprisoned creatures only to assume that it serves no purpose beyond adding a bit of flavor to the detailed fantasy world. A group of Reddit users with far too much time and an abundance of creative reasoning skills however, has discerned a far more sinister purpose behind the glass prisons.
Specifically, these bug jars seem to be a primer on how to summon the apocalypse.
See, the lid of each jar is emblazoned with a rune that when translated from the language of the dragons into English offers a vague description of a location within Skyrim. Weird, right? Man, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
Take this proposed theory, for instance:
Someone noticed the connection between the five cities Morthal, Whiterun, Winterhold, Dawnstar, and Windhelm, and realized they formed a Pentagon. He also noticed three dragon "sanctuaries" or whatever you may call them, Mzinchaleft, and the Tower Stone formed a smaller pentagon within it, making a transmutation circle. In the general area of the middle of the circle, there is a shrine to Talos with a circle of stones around it. His theory was that if you placed the bugs on their respective cities (see post for relation between bugs and cities), committed genocide in those ctities, kill the dragons at the dragon areas and the one that Mzinchaleft leads to, activate the tower stone, and wait for the "Promised Day".
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ALL THEESE THEORIES... just connect them...
Your the dragonborn, Dragonborn is Talos/Ysmir/Lorkhan, Dragonborn is also the Stone connected to the Snow Tower, Dragonborn is King of Skyrim, jar bug's pentagram (See the pentagram here: Do Bugs In Jars Point To the Apocalypse In Skyrim? – Gaming News | Videos | Apparel | Radio Gravy | Suddenbrain!.) centered on TALOS...
!!!YOU!!!, 9 Divines turned into eight... sure talos is excluded from worship.. ofCOURSE he is the Thalmor wants to destroy the Snow Tower so they want the Stone removed... talos is now inside you...,dont you get it? YOU ARE WHAT KEEPS NIRN ALIVE... if YOU DIE, Snow Tower dies and if Snow Tower dies the WORLD DIES!...
"Another thing.... Talos is the god of JUST RULERSHIP civil society... in the game you actually "Being Talos it justifies his ways" DO get the abillity do decide Rulership of Territories.. FROM your seat in High Hrothgar.. (As stated by Graybeards you are king of Snow Tower.) As stated in the Creation of nirn, for every tower created to support Nirn.. they had a meeting in Each tower... High Hrothgar is The acess point of Snow Throat meaning you Decided justice "By Talos" of Rulership "Again of Talos" in THE debatehall of wich the god's THEMSELVES once has been.
If THIS doesent make you think.. i don't know what does :/
"so eh.. ya feel a bit more important of a person in Skyrim than ehem "Just" being Dragonborn?
<If you find any holes in my theory please let me know and i will search the web to try to fill them in>
A lot to read but to really get it you HAVE to read it all.
DRAGONBORN IS YSMIR/TALOS/LORKHAN
"It was in the Late Merethic Era that the pre-literate humans, the so-called "Nedic Peoples", from the continent of Atmora Atmora (also 'Altmora' or 'the Elder Wood' in Aldmeris) migrated and settleed (sic) in northern Tamriel. The Nord culture hero Ysgramor, leader of a great colonizing fleet to Tamriel, is credited with developing a runic transcription of Nord speech based on Elvish principles, and so Ysgramor is considered the first human historian. Ysgramor's fleet landed at Hsaarik Head at the extreme northern tip of Skyrim's Broken Cape. The Nords built there the legendary city of Saarthal. The Elves drove the Men away during the Night of Tears, but Ysgramor soon returned with his Five Hundred Companions.
Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again."
Given the random nature of this character, the fact that he is described as doing many of the things our game character does, and the fact that Ysmir is the nordic aspect of Talos, and is also called the Dragon of the North, a title bestowed upon the Dragonborn by the Greybeards who bestowed it upon Ysmir in the first place, it seems within reason that the new Dragonborn (or the Last Dragonborn as the prophecy states) is the next incarnation of of Talos.
By Martin destroying the Amulet of Kings he opened the way for a New Talos to come, one who could be anyone, not necessarily an Imperial and most importantly not a Septim. A possible reason for the outlaw of Talos is more because of the fact that the representation of Talos is a Statue of Tiber Septim. The elves dislike Talos for that reason but in reality I think Talos is the elves best hope of realizing their dreams, they dislike the worship of Talos because they see it as a Man who became a god, but the more lore that I read the more I see that Talos is the idea that a Mortal, any mortal, could become Talos, but there can only be one Talos at a time. The way the Champion of Cyrodiil becomes The Deadric Prince of Madness, The Dragonborn, through his actions, could take on the aspect of Talos.
Talos was given the title Ysmir by the greybeards aswell but the actuall name talos was given to tiber septim once he became a divine so the Dragonborn wouldnt be a reincarnation of Talos unless Tiber septim himself was influencing the dragonborns actions and the dragon born attained divine status but Ysmir is the dragon of the north so both the Dragonborn and talos would be a reincarnation of Ysmir himself, as opposed to just a title given to them, also the dragon mask Konahriik which you can find in labarynthian is supposedly to lore the mask made to worship Ysmir so wearing that mask suits the setting very well if you are in to being a true reincarnation of Ysmir
Nirnian metaphysics permit a phenomenon called mantling, where by fulfilling the archetype of a metaphysically significant figure, you can sort of grow into being something analogous to our concept of their reincarnation -- you take on their mantle.
The Dragonborn is almost certainly mantling Tiber Septim, just as the Nerevanin, the protagonist of Morrowind, mantled Nerevar. But Nirnian metaphysics may not permit anything more like reincarnation than that. And it's not reincarnation -- others had attempted to mantle Nerevar and succeeded partway before dying.
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TOWER'S OF NIRN
Metaphysics: The First Tower and the Wheel
First of all we have to define Metaphysics: it is the study of primary causes regarding the foundation of the world with regards to cosmology and existence, thus thought and reality are its primary domains.
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The Towers of the Nirn universe.In the beginning there were the two primal forces of the world, Anu (order) and Padhome (chaos), both living in separate ways. However, in one instance these two entities overlap like a venn diagram in which is creates a neutral void in a stated called Aurbis.
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The first two Et'Ada were Akatosh and Sithis, further extensions of Anu and Padhome. Each spirit wanted their own rule over Aurbis. Now, within Aurbis was created a 'wheel' at the center. The importance of the wheel was not immediately recognized when other et'ada populated the expanse. To think of the wheel image an actual wheel, it has eight spokes and sixteen dark expanses within it. This is the domains of the eight divines and sixteen voids of Oblivion (this is one of the principle reasons that makes Talos an odd figure for a divine, and there are more than sixteen voids we know of not to mention seventeen Daedric princes). In the center of that wheel is a meeting of all aspects which was called the 'hub' which would become Mundus.
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When Mundus was created a large number of et'ada left. One of the greatest of which was Magnus. He was the god of magic and the architect who planned Mundus (Lorkhan was used to create the physical Mundus but he didn't do any of the actual preliminary ground work). Magnus grew uneasy about it and 'left', in doing so his departure tore a hole in Aetherius which became the sun which is still known as Magnus. Soon after many other spirits left, they were called the Magna Ge and left other smaller holes which are the stars. From those holes magic seeps into Mundus where as before there would have been none. It was during this time Lorkhan saw the 'wheel' on its side and said it was not just a wheel, rather it was a tower (cross section looks like an I). This was the first tower realized, the expanse of Mundus is the first tower.
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Towers and Stones
Magnus left which led to a convening of the Divines. They created a single physical tower called the Adamantine tower which is on the island of Balfiera between Hammerfell and High Rock. It was infused with the power of creation by a single 'stone' which powered it; this was called the Zero stone. There were still the eight Divines and when realizing what Lorkhan had done they punished him which infused Nirn with divine power which had Lorkhan's heart torn out and thrown into Red Mountain. This became the Red Tower and its stone was that of Lorkhan's heart. This impregnation of Nirn by the Heart of Lorkhan allowed the Divines to leave Nirn without it becoming unraveled while the Zero stone provided linearity of existence.
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Each tower has a founding stone that provides the focus and power. Where as the first two were divinely inspired in creation and divinity which allowed for a linear time and mortal existence, the others were created by the Aldmeri to mimic the others. The stones are imbued with creatia magic not from Oblivion, but from a place outside Oblivion, Aetherius (It can be easy to think of the towers much in the same respect as what sigil stones were to Daedric realms in Oblivion). The rest of these were build by the Aldmeri in imitation of the first tower and used to bring stability as the Aldmeri understood it.
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Adamantine Tower: also called the Ur-tower is the first tower that the Divines created and held a meeting in. It is on the island of Balfiera between Hammerfell and High Rock and takes the image of a single metal cylinder extending upwards and downwards into the ground. It is considered an active tower with its stone being called the Zero-stone, which is the aspect of creation.
Red Tower: the Red tower is Red Mountain in Vvardenfell. Its stone was the Heart of Lorkhan. It was inactive following the events of Morrowind and destroyed in the eruption early in the forth era.
White Gold Tower: The White gold tower dominates the Imperial city on the isle and was built by the Ayleids. It was said to have the stone Chim-el Adabal, the central crystal in the amulet of Kings that was meant for refocusing the powers of creation to 'reach' the divines and not let the power of magic disseminate. Thus while others bind magic and bleed it the white gold tower harnessed the power of creation; in this manner it is said to be the unique 'wheel within a wheel'. (Remember when asking an Imperial for guard for directions? he mentions the city divided into sections like (the spokes of a wheel)
Crystal-like-law: The Crystal tower, much like the Adamantine and White-gold tower is a physical tower in Alinor within the Summerset Isles. It was said to be the foremost place of magical research after the arcane university and was destroyed during the Oblivion crisis.
Green-Sap: We have no idea what the Green-Sap tower is for sure, but conventional theory points to it being the walking city of Falenesti in Valenwood. It's stone is not known but it became inactive sometime prior to the events of Oblivion and after Tiber Septim's conquest of Valenwood and the writing of the First Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Epire.
Orichalc: Tower is unknown, and the stone is unknown. If what was said to be correct regarding the towers created by the Aldmeri, then it's possible that the tower and stone may be with the Maormer. This seems to fit with the Nu-Mantia mantra that all life originated on Tamriel and spread out from there.
Walk-Brass: Tower is unknown, and the stone is unknown. While there is speculation that this is Numidium the Chimer followed the prophet Veloth away from the Aldmer and towards it. However, Numidium is shall we say, fickle with time. Thus it may very well be a dragon break that made them wander towards it before the machine was even built by Kagranac the Dwarf. It's stone is said to be destruction or more specifically 'dis-creation'.
Snow Throat: The Snow Throat tower is usually interpreted as the Throat of the World atop High Hrothgar in Skyrim. The stone is unknown but the peak was called 'half-here' (for those who have finished the primary story there is an important tie in for this).
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Speculation on Disintegration:
So what happens if the towers all collapse? It's never expressly stated but the destruction of each seems to indicate that the world will come apart. The eight towers provide pillars of support for the world and without those it would tear itself apart and return to its original state of being. This isn't to say that it is death; it could be the elven ideal of returning to Aetherius. The prevailing notion of thought is that upon death on Nirn people may return to Aetherius, where they are caught before time in a 'dream sleeve', subjected to amnesiac traumas, and returned to Nirn as a reincarnation.It's a decidedly dystopian method of thought in that regard.
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Yet it was the Aldmeri who created the six remaining towers and as such brought stability to the world. If all the towers were undone then that eternal cycle of death would cease and Mundus would vanish back into the primordial state of being devoid of pain and unbound by the laws of physics and reality; time and space would have no meaning, neither would despair or discord. In essence, it could very well be a free ticket to heaven.
Thalmor are trying to erase mankind from existence, and the things that are stopping them are the eight towers:
Crystal Tower
Red Tower
Tree-sap
Orchalc
Khajiit
all of which were destroyed or deactivated. The most significant and only remaining one are the Brass Tower and Snow-Throat, or the Throat of the World. The Brass Tower was cast out of time. The tower may have a spiritual connection with Numidium, the brass god, and the disappearance of the tower and therefore Numidium may tie in with the disappearance of the Dwemer. Snow Throat is the only active one. Each of these towers have stones which bind them to Nirn, and the theorist concluded that the Weynon Stones bound Snow Throat. This is why the Thalmor have been waging war on Skyrim; so they can destroy Snow Throat or the Weynon Stones, either way destroying the last tower and wiping mankind from existence.
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TALOS
Talos, once known as Tiber Septim, Ysmir, or the Dragonborn, Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, is the greatest hero-god of Mankind, and is worshipped as the protector and patron of just rulership and civil society.
Tiber Septim conquered all of Tamriel and began the Third Era, as well the Third Empire. At his death he ascended to godhood as the God of War. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult, were inspired by his apotheosis.
Known as Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North and Dragonborn, he is also invoked as patron of questing heroes. He is referred to as the One in the phrase "The Eight and the One", as there were originally only Eight Divines before Tiber Septim ascended to godhood.
In The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Tiber Septim makes an appearance as his avatar "Wulf".
In the nevest addition to The Elderscrolls series: Skyrim, Talos may just aswell be the player, the Dragonborn.
The Thalmor seek to end the world. They dont want to end the kalpa and start a new one as Alduin has done many times before; they seek to end the entire cycle and return to how things were before time. Unlike humans, who believe the gods created life and thus revere Lorkhan (now Talos), elves believe that they existed before time as spirits and were forced by the gods into the cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
This is why the Thalmor hate Talos and want to create war. Talos mantled Lorkhan, so is is Lorkhan, and they hate the god who started creation. Constant war helps them keep the world in chaos so they can destroy the remaining towers holding the wheel of the world together.
Also the Thalmor do not actually believe Talos isn't a god. They know he is, but just hate him and want's his undoing.
As Talos is Ysmir and Ysmir King of Snow Tower "By graybeards saying" thus he is the Stone connected to the Snow Tower, if he is removed... Snow Tower falls and the world with it.
"Thalmor are actually trying to get ground in Markarth, as they believe the way to the Snow Tower itself is underneath the city."
"The Mountain is the Housing, High Hrothgar the Outpost and the core wich is beleaved to reside below the mountain is what the Thalmor want.
It is this whloe Entity of Core Outpost and Mountain wich is called Snow Tower."
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Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. In his mortal form, known as Tiber Septim, he conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). After death, his spirit ascended to the heavens to become the ninth and youngest divine, under his birth name of Talos. Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. One of the Nine Divines, the major gods worshipped throughout Tamriel. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult have been inspired by his apotheosis. In the Fourth Era, worship of Talos was banned as a result of the White-Gold Concordat. However, many of the Nords of Skyrim continued to revere him despite these strict terms.
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"When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls I: Arena where the Staff of Chaos is divided into eight pieces and scattered.
When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall where the Brass God (originally Dwarven Numidium) is operated and the possible endings.
When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind where the Tribunal, the three Dunmer gods: Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha sil who acquired their immortality through the Heart of Lorkhan, lose their immortality after the Heart is destroyed and perhaps the following events that lead to the eruption of the Red Mountain.
"When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls" refers to the events of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion which leads to the Imperial City being left without a dragonborn ruler and the temporary occupation of the city (with White Tower as its symbol) by Mehrunes Dagon's forces.
"When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding" refers, of course, to the currents event of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim where Skyrim (with Throat of the World, or Snow Tower, as its symbol) is "sundered" due to civil war, its High King Torryg is killed by Ulfric and the province is essentially bleeding.
{{Snow tower is Bleeding, it has no stone, high king is dead, when you kill your first dragon the Snow Tower awakens and the this is sensed by the greybeards wich in turn calls upon you}}
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COMMENTS FOUND ON THE WEB
Interesting that there are 8 towers - seems to be a reoccurring number in the Elderscrolls Series.
In theory (going on a thought) if all eight towers were to be destroyed it would be the end times "immortal"
then the world of nirn is balanced solely on the remaining 3-4 towers...let me clarify....each tower has a stone with out that stone its a "dead" tower i.e destroyed or what not as the tower is no longer "alive" with out its stone ...> walking brass has long since been destroyed if it is indeed numidium
..........> white gold tower is dead since the amulet of kings was its stone it was destroyed no stone no tower though in relitivity the tower stands in theory its dead
........> Red Mt ...gone...dead in the "RED YEAR"
......> Crystal tower..gone...oblivion crisis
.......> throat of the world......> stone is unknown...
that leaves only 3 towers left 4 depending on your actions in skyrim
the series of TES games take's you closer to the end times...."in theory of course"
also if there are 16 voids 17 daedric princes 1 daedra is the odd ball in my view peryite whould be the odd ball since he is just a mail man with no void or plane so to speak that means in my opinion
talos is in fact the aedra version of peryite seeing as no exact "spoke" is there to represent him wich makes sense seeing as he played a messnger in the imperial cult quest lines in the game morrowind under the npc name wulf
That said, I very much agree and put it in the Altmeri Thalmor section that a prayer to Talos is essentially Lorkhan/Shor. If he's not the living god then he's simply the transference of Nords so they can worship Shor by another namer. The thing is that while Lorkhan's body was torn in half, several religions such as the Khajiit mention that the spirit of Shor was merely sent to the wrold as something of a formless wanderer, which of course fits the Cyrodiilic Shezzar as the 'spirit of human endeavors'. Likewise, the Altmeri Heart of the World version whcih I ascribe to says that Lorkhan can't be destroyed as so long as Nirn exists he's bound to the world itself even after Trinimac tore his heart out.
But yes, it seems slowly but surely Nirn is ending and reality will deteriorate and eventually cease to exist. At least, that what it seems to say, we don't exactly know for sure, because it's essentially glorified 'fan-fics' of the authors it's impossible to know exactly. I do like the elven take on it, destroy the world, everything gets better again... but I haven't a clue what would happen.
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DRAGONBORN IS KING OF SKYRIM
had this conversation before with others but wish to revisit it after a recent play through uncovered something I missed the first time around that makes the case for the Dragon Born becoming King of Skyrim even stronger.
During a chat with Arngeir (One of the Greybeards), shortly after recognizing the Player as the Dragon Born, presents some dialog under the topic "What did you actually say", referring to the ceremony that recognizes the player as the Dragon Born that had just taken place.
The translation of what the Grey Beards say in the Dragon Language goes something like this (I filmed it btw, thats how I got these words).
Long has the Storm Crown Languished with no worthy brow to sit upon. By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
Let me explain the above passage and put some meat on those bones for you all
This goes very deep, so I'll skim the surface for the vital details, no point getting in to Talos and the Numidium story if we do not have too
Shor is the Nordic version Lorkhan.
Lorkhan is the God that tricked the other gods in to helping create Mundus and Nirn, Lorkhan became Mundus and Nirn and disappeared during the change, earning the name "the missing god" according to one version of events. He was considered to have died during the change and various versions of events all see the end of Lorkhan in some way.
The gods that helped became Aedra, the gods that did not became Daedra. Gods and Devils. The Aedra where not fully informed by Lorkhan of what happens next and so where left weak where as the Daedra went off to create their own Realms they had full power over and remained strong.
Lorkhan also earned the hatred of the Elves who felt they had been ripped out of the heavens by Lorkhans tricks and forced to suffer a mortal life on Nirn because of him.
Humans on the other hand saw him as the creator and protector against the Elves. Since the Elves have a bad reputation amongst the Nords for good reason, Lorkhan or Shor as the Nords call him, is nothing less than a mighty warrior that slayed their elven enemies.
Before Lorkhan doom at the hands of the other gods (according to another version of events, there are several btw, all official). Shor was King of Gods and is currently ruler of Sovngarde, the Nordic version of Heaven. So Shor is indeed dead according to various versions of events, according to the Nordic version he now rules in Sovngarde instead.
But as we know he manages to influences Mundus and Nirn when he needs too.
Kynes is the Window of Shor, the Nordic Goddess of Storms. Also known Kynareth to the Imperials. The god of Natural basically.
Atmora is the continent from where the Nords originally came from.
Ysmir "The Dragon of the North" is also known by these names.
"Ash King"
"Shors Tongue"
"Under King"
"Lorkhan"
"King Wulfharlth"
So when Arngeir says this...
Long has the Storm Crown Languished with no worthy brow to sit upon. By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
He actually says this...
Long Crown of Skrim has languished without a worther brow to sit upon. By our Voice (Breath and Voice mean the same thing in the Dragon language), we bestow it now to you in the name Kyne (Kynareth and Shors Window), In the Name of Shor (Lorkhan) and in the name of Atmora (Original homeland of the Nords). You are now Ysmir ("King Wulfharlth", King of the Nords, King of Skyrim), Dragon of the North. Harken to it.
Lorkhan being in all things can be in several places at once, in several people at once and so any reference to him should be considered as an apsect of Lorkhan appearing in the mortal realm and not literally Lorkhan because Lorkhan is dead remember, but not gone.
All hail the Dragon Born, King of Skyrim
One more thing, if the Dragon Born is Ysmir and Ysmir counts amongst his frienda Sho and is also blessed by Akatosh as the Dragon Born. Than means Sho the old King of the Gods and Akatosh the new King of the Gods both favour the Dragon Born.
A coming together of 2 very powerful gods to favour 1 mortal.
Think about that.
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BUGS IN A JAR THEORY "END OF THE WORLD (Nirn that is...)"
Throughout the frozen wasteland that plays host to the game there are a number of bugs trapped inside various jars. If you've played the game for an extended period of time, you've likely found one of these imprisoned creatures only to assume that it serves no purpose beyond adding a bit of flavor to the detailed fantasy world. A group of Reddit users with far too much time and an abundance of creative reasoning skills however, has discerned a far more sinister purpose behind the glass prisons.
Specifically, these bug jars seem to be a primer on how to summon the apocalypse.
See, the lid of each jar is emblazoned with a rune that when translated from the language of the dragons into English offers a vague description of a location within Skyrim. Weird, right? Man, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
Take this proposed theory, for instance:
Someone noticed the connection between the five cities Morthal, Whiterun, Winterhold, Dawnstar, and Windhelm, and realized they formed a Pentagon. He also noticed three dragon "sanctuaries" or whatever you may call them, Mzinchaleft, and the Tower Stone formed a smaller pentagon within it, making a transmutation circle. In the general area of the middle of the circle, there is a shrine to Talos with a circle of stones around it. His theory was that if you placed the bugs on their respective cities (see post for relation between bugs and cities), committed genocide in those ctities, kill the dragons at the dragon areas and the one that Mzinchaleft leads to, activate the tower stone, and wait for the "Promised Day".
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ALL THEESE THEORIES... just connect them...
Your the dragonborn, Dragonborn is Talos/Ysmir/Lorkhan, Dragonborn is also the Stone connected to the Snow Tower, Dragonborn is King of Skyrim, jar bug's pentagram (See the pentagram here: Do Bugs In Jars Point To the Apocalypse In Skyrim? – Gaming News | Videos | Apparel | Radio Gravy | Suddenbrain!.) centered on TALOS...
!!!YOU!!!, 9 Divines turned into eight... sure talos is excluded from worship.. ofCOURSE he is the Thalmor wants to destroy the Snow Tower so they want the Stone removed... talos is now inside you...,dont you get it? YOU ARE WHAT KEEPS NIRN ALIVE... if YOU DIE, Snow Tower dies and if Snow Tower dies the WORLD DIES!...
"Another thing.... Talos is the god of JUST RULERSHIP civil society... in the game you actually "Being Talos it justifies his ways" DO get the abillity do decide Rulership of Territories.. FROM your seat in High Hrothgar.. (As stated by Graybeards you are king of Snow Tower.) As stated in the Creation of nirn, for every tower created to support Nirn.. they had a meeting in Each tower... High Hrothgar is The acess point of Snow Throat meaning you Decided justice "By Talos" of Rulership "Again of Talos" in THE debatehall of wich the god's THEMSELVES once has been.
If THIS doesent make you think.. i don't know what does :/
"so eh.. ya feel a bit more important of a person in Skyrim than ehem "Just" being Dragonborn?
<If you find any holes in my theory please let me know and i will search the web to try to fill them in
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