The Pope and "Redemption" for Atheists

[Docta Corvina]

So I noticed this story did not get as much traction as I imagined. Perhaps because at the end of the day, the Vatican makes it clear that one cannot be "saved" except through Christ. But I still think that in light of the rhetoric and attention to the more hardline facets of the faith through the years, this is something worthy of note. It's not something we hear terribly often, in my experience. I am by no means a scholar of Catholicism or otherwise overly familiar with the details of Church doctrine, so it would be interesting to hear others' reactions and even analysis of this. No doubt theologians will be debating this one.

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone,” the pope told worshipers at morning Mass on Wednesday. “‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”

Francis continued, “We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Source article: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/


So, what are people's thoughts on this? Pleased? Impressed? Heartened? Skeptical? Indifferent?

I personally find it heartening, as an agnostic. But I embrace it more in the broader, more abstract sense rather than literal. In other words, putting the doing of good at the forefront in such a manner is a message that I think is significant and integral. It's something Humanists have been advocating for centuries, that (especially with no absolute otherworldly assurances) humanity assisting itself and looking out for one another is the greatest overall calling. This is a message that the world needs echoing, on a constant basis.

"But do good: we will meet one another there."

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

Very unimpressed. I just feel like there's a hidden agenda. The Roman Catholic church is just too untrustworthy.

Also, I'm sure the gays are still gonna burn in the fiery pits of hell.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well, I suppose it could be part of a broader effort to "re-brand" the Church, as it were. Pope Francis has made very encouraging remarks about aiding the poor, and this statement from him is equally heartening to me. Whether it means any change in interpretation and application of doctrine, who knows. But I find the message, in itself, to be a positive one.

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

Oh yes, the message is a positive one. But, there's something else behind it. For sure. Maybe when the Church stops condemning homosexuals, allows Priests to get married, and doesn't sweep pedophilia under the rug, then I'll be impressed.

 

[utael]

Or how about they stop interpretting a book from 15 hundred years ago and move on to something productive.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Haha, indeed, Utael. There are several issues that the Church is finding itself essentially on the defensive about - and rightfully so. It remains to be seen whether the Church will evolve and to what extent. But given the rarity of statements such as the one Francis has made here, I like to think the proverbial handwriting on the wall is growing clearer.

 

[Declando]

Just because the Pope says it doesn't mean that everyone will agree, most of the Christians I know are Protestant anyway.

The fact that the question 'Even the athiests?' is mentioned gets on my wick a bit, it's another example of how Christians are constantly trying to press their beliefs onto other religions and societies, but of course it's different when an athiest, agnostic or another religion tries to explain their beliefs to them.

 

[Crooksin]

Oh, they finally see that I have the capacity to be just as good morally as any Christian? Well that's good, I will continue not caring about them.

The Church (and I mean the Church, not the religion) holds absolutely no credibility to me. Sure he says he plans to help the poor ... while he sips from his golden cup in his thousands of dollars worth of silk. Okay there. I'll only believe it when they start taxing churches.

That being said, I like the direction there going but in the end it matters not to me in any way, shape, or form. Official Christian approval doesn't change a thing.

 

[Docta Corvina]

It's true, actions inevitably speak louder than words when it comes to most anything. That applies to aiding the poor, and I certainly hope that this Pope makes good on his word.

Really, the "direction" highlighted by his statement is what I appreciate. As I said, I'm an agnostic, so ultimately what the Church does/says is mostly irrelevant to me as a matter of doctrine. Still, I would very much like to see this mark the beginning of an evolution. A kind of re-branding. A more inclusive and expansive and more broadly compassionate Church. After all, I've always felt like Christ - as portrayed, in any case - would be apt to "redeem" non-believers and members of other faiths for their benevolence anyway. This should not be a novel concept.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Sure he says he plans to help the poor ... while he sips from his golden cup in his thousands of dollars worth of silk. Okay there. I'll only believe it when they start taxing churches.

From the article I linked:

Francis has shed some of the most pompous symbols of papal power. The ornate Renaissance vestments, the golden crucifix and red shoes dear to Benedict have been put away.

And Francis has shunned the papal apartment. He still lives in a communal setting in a Vatican residence where he delivers daily homilies at early morning Mass.

Benedict's focus on theology has given way to more concrete issues, like poverty, Francis' main concern.

No, it's not earth-shattering. But it's a start.

 

[Crooksin]

From the article I linked:



No, it's not earth-shattering. But it's a start.

I like this guy

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

It defeats the entire purpose of Christianity. Jesus is the only way into heaven, because he became the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. You don't accept that he made that sacrifice for us, no amount of good deeds is going to open the pearly gates. I don't see eye to eye with most of the catholic church very often, and I think this is, while examined basically as good, is bad for the church because they are trying to please everyone. They may be putting some people, like you all whom I regard with the utmost respect, at ease, but they are going to pi** off people who were originally their home team. By denying the most fundamental aspect of Chrisitanity, they show themselves to be very hypocritical, and makes me question exactly how strong their faith is.

Just my two cents.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Oh yes, the message is a positive one. But, there's something else behind it. For sure. Maybe when the Church stops condemning homosexuals, allows Priests to get married, and doesn't sweep pedophilia under the rug, then I'll be impressed.

Concerning their priests and marriage, they are trying to be as sinless and pure as Jesus, and follow in his direct footsteps by not being married. I think it is foolish because no man can be just like Jesus, and we should strive to follow his lead, not be him. Please don't play on my words here, I'm basically saying priests and all should be able to get married.

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

It defeats the entire purpose of Christianity. Jesus is the only way into heaven, because he became the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. You don't accept that he made that sacrifice for us, no amount of good deeds is going to open the pearly gates. I don't see eye to eye with most of the catholic church very often, and I think this is, while examined basically as good, is bad for the church because they are trying to please everyone. They may be putting some people, like you all whom I regard with the utmost respect, at ease, but they are going to pi** off people who were originally their home team. By denying the most fundamental aspect of Chrisitanity, they show themselves to be very hypocritical, and makes me question exactly how strong their faith is.

Just my two cents.

I could give a rat's ass what the Church says. They don't need to tell me I am a decent human being. And if your god wants to toss me into a fire pit just because I don't believe in him, then well, your god acts very much like that of a child who doesn't get their way.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I could give a rat's ass what the Church says. They don't need to tell me I am a decent human being. And if your god wants to toss me into a fire pit just because I don't believe in him, then well, your god acts very much like that of a child who doesn't get their way.

You're missing the point. The church isn't trying to tell you what a decent human being you are. To them, they are saving you from a very bad afterlife. Instead of getting so defensive when someone presents Jesus to you, you should feel honored they love you enough to save you from a hell that is very real to them. As for the whole child thing, it's his way or the highway. He's God. He gets to do that. And the analogy is pretty bad in general. That's not at all what it is like. It is not God who sends you to hell, it is our own choices that allow the Antichrist to claim us.

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

You're missing the point. The church isn't trying to tell you what a decent human being you are. To them, they are saving you from a very bad afterlife. Instead of getting so defensive when someone presents Jesus to you, you should feel honored they love you enough to save you from a hell that is very real to them. As for the whole child thing, it's his way or the highway. He's God. He gets to do that. And the analogy is pretty bad in general. That's not at all what it is like. It is not God who sends you to hell, it is our own choices that allow the Antichrist to claim us.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Yahweh kill more people in the bible than Lucifer?

And I don't believe in an afterlife. When you are dead, that's it. The afterlife was made up to make people feel better about facing their own death. It's BS.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

First of all, you're stating that satan exists, and you can't believe one without the other. There will always be opposing sides. If someone is pointing a gun at you, and you have one in your hand, are you going to just let them kill you? Or are you going to stand your ground? Did people count the ones Satan killed through all kinds of horrors?

As for the afterlife, that's your choice. If I'm wrong, I get off easy. If you're wrong, there's hell to pay. Not only that, but every civilization in history had some form of religion. Not all of them were dull or dumb, and the majority were brilliant. It's your right to decide who's right and who's wrong. I do my best to not infringe upon that, though sometimes I get a little heated. It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain multiple possibilities without accepting them. If you don't believe it, be thankful people that do believe you are worth saving.

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

First of all, you're stating that satan exists, and you can't believe one without the other. There will always be opposing sides. If someone is pointing a gun at you, and you have one in your hand, are you going to just let them kill you? Or are you going to stand your ground? Did people count the ones Satan killed through all kinds of horrors?

As for the afterlife, that's your choice. If I'm wrong, I get off easy. If you're wrong, there's hell to pay. Not only that, but every civilization in history had some form of religion. Not all of them were dull or dumb, and the majority were brilliant. It's your right to decide who's right and who's wrong. I do my best to not infringe upon that, though sometimes I get a little heated. It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain multiple possibilities without accepting them. If you don't believe it, be thankful people that do believe you are worth saving.

Lol get off easy, that simple, huh? I could be a mass murderer, but as long as I accept Jesus I'm saved. But your god is going to damn me forever simply because I didn't believe in him. Just LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

And worth saving for what? What is even being saved? I'd venture to guess you'd say my soul. Welp, I don't believe in people having souls either. *shrugs*

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Lol get off easy, that simple, huh? I could be a mass murderer, but as long as I accept Jesus I'm saved. But your god is going to damn me forever simply because I didn't believe in him. Just LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

And worth saving for what? What is even being saved? I'd venture to guess you'd say my soul. Welp, I don't believe in people having souls either. *shrugs*

Are you really naive enough to believe that God's going to pat the back of a rapist or a murder and say, "welcome home brother!" When they get there?! That's not how it works! When a person accepts Christ, they are changed, and they do not want to do the things they did before. Accepting Jesus is an act of repentance, and a promise that you will strive to turn away from sins, and do what's right. Do you honestly believe a rapist or muderer would make heaven as they are? God loves us enough that if we truly accept Jesus, God's only son whom he allowed to die for our sins, we are forgiven. He is the sacrifice, the PERFECT sacrifice, and if someone were to TRULY be repentant of their sins when accepting Jesus, they would not continue to commit such atrocities.

 

[utael]

so even if the mass murder on his last breath accepted Jesus he would be let into the pearly gates with open arms right? Hmm... sounds fishy to me. The only honor of being told to accept a man who was just that, a man, and to claim him as your messiah and believe in an all-mighty being who is supposedly the one controlling everything, to me is a bunch of shtucko. If all it takes for the sheeple to behave the way they should is an almighty god who will send them to the fiery pits of hell (and by the way it is him that sends you don't let your priests and pastors lie) then so be it. I'm sorry I've grown up without god in my life but I still act as a sensible and caring human being.

Kinda throws a wrench in the bible doesn't it? when people aren't following christ but still act the way you should.