Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Davian

Member
Poorly educated Stormcloaks who see non-existent flaws. The Imperial forces currently in Skyrim are the bare minimum the Emperor was willing to give, judging from Tullius' dialogue such as "If only the Emperor would send me the reinforces I've requested!" How you expect to defeat the Thalmor when you can't even handle Imperial trainees is beyond me.

If this really is the bare minimum that Cyrodiil had to offer, they badly miscalculated. If there really was supposed to be only one ending to the Civil War, why even bother making it possible to join Ulfric?

Clearly the ravings of a mad Imperial dog, desperately trying to cling to power in an increasingly irrelevant Empire.

Next time, send all your forces if you really want to waste lives on a petty attempt to pit man against man. We both know that the Aldmeri are the real enemy. All we want is independence. Get the hell out of Skyrim.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Poorly educated Stormcloaks who see non-existent flaws. The Imperial forces currently in Skyrim are the bare minimum the Emperor was willing to give, judging from Tullius' dialogue such as "If only the Emperor would send me the reinforces I've requested!" How you expect to defeat the Thalmor when you can't even handle Imperial trainees is beyond me.

If this really is the bare minimum that Cyrodiil had to offer, they badly miscalculated. If there really was supposed to be only one ending to the Civil War, why even bother making it possible to join Ulfric?

Clearly the ravings of a mad Imperial dog, desperately trying to cling to power in an increasingly irrelevant Empire.

Next time, send all your forces if you really want to waste lives on a petty attempt to pit man against man. We both know that the Aldmeri are the real enemy. All we want is independence. Get the hell out of Skyrim.

They didn't miscalculate, reinforcements are waiting for Pale Pass to clear up. Then they'll just roll the Stormcloaks over.

And it's possible to join the rebellion because ultimately it's most likely not going to matter who won or lost. There's a much, much bigger conflict up ahead anyway. What mattered the most in TES:V was getting Alduin down, which the Dragonborn did. Everything else will remain obscure.
 

Davian

Member
They didn't miscalculate, reinforcements are waiting for Pale Pass to clear up. Then they'll just roll the Stormcloaks over.

And it's possible to join the rebellion because ultimately it's most likely not going to matter who won or lost. There's a much, much bigger conflict up ahead anyway. What mattered the most in TES:V was getting Alduin down, which the Dragonborn did. Everything else will remain obscure.
Time to go Thermopylae on their asses then (with adequate rear guard, of course.) I'm quite aware of the result of the Battle of Thermopylae, but also aware that, through several phases, the Greek city states repelled the invading Persians.

So shall it be with the true Sons and Daughters of Skyrim.

And if it "won't matter", why bother implying that the Empire will win anyway if they ultimately lose to the Dominion?

Shallow arguments, at best.

Side note: Heh, Greek rear guard. LOL
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
currently illegally occupying Skyrim, like the US Army did in Iraq.

How is it illegal? Skyrim is part of the Empire and the Legions have had garrisons there for centuries. Locally recruiting for so long that in most parts it has become tradition for many families to serve.

Be like you saying the US Army is illegally occupying your state.

If this really is the bare minimum that Cyrodiil had to offer, they badly miscalculated.

Cyrodiil isn't offering anything, were Cyrodiil to throw their weight around the rebellion would be crushed. Ulfric will not risk an all out war with Cyrodiil, he goes out of his way to ensure he does not piss off Cyrodiil. They don't give two plopss at the moment, in fact it seems they're barely even aware of any rebellion.
 
Last edited:

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Time to go Thermopylae on their asses then (with adequate rear guard, of course.) I'm quite aware of the result of the Battle of Thermopylae, but also aware that, through several phases, the Greek city states repelled the invading Persians.

So shall it be with the true Sons and Daughters of Skyrim.

The Empire doesn't fight fair, and they would never come at the Nords from a single pass when they border the north west and the south has several passes from Falkreath to the Rift.
 

Davian

Member
The Empire doesn't fight fair

Clearly. No empire does.

As for the thing about Skyrim being compared to a US state and the Empire being the entire USA, believe it or not, there are loopholes in the US constitution that allow for Texas' secession. As I mentioned earlier, a simpler way to get around the Talos issue is to have Skyrim formally secede from the Empire, thereby not including them under the terms of the WGC.

It would be a lot more legitimate than the real-world business going on in America over bathroom laws, I tell you what.

They don't give two pl***s at the moment, in fact it seems they're barely even aware of any rebellion.

Funny how things can sneak up on you like that.
tumblr_m3d8pbgOiX1qengqso1_500.jpg


Why would Ulfric care about an all-out war with Cyrodiil, though? All he wants is independence for his country. Sure, he mentions when he wins that more Legionnaires will be coming to try to take it back, but doesn't that weaken Cyrodiil's own defenses more?

Seems like a silly thing to do with the Dominion right on the opposite doorstep, waiting to invade Cyrodiil.

P.S. Nice to see you back in the discussion, DM.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Oh let the Nords have Skyrim. They'll run it in to the ground and be living in caves and eating their young in under a century anyhow without some sort of intelligent guidance, and then we (and by we, I mean the soon to be victorious Dominion) can just walk in and take the land and the abandoned cities for raw materials (I mean, honestly, what would we want with such a place as Skryim other than bragging rights and raw material harvesting).
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
The Empire doesn't fight fair

Clearly. No empire does.

As for the thing about Skyrim being compared to a US state and the Empire being the entire USA, believe it or not, there are loopholes in the US constitution that allow for Texas' secession. As I mentioned earlier, a simpler way to get around the Talos issue is to have Skyrim formally secede from the Empire, thereby not including them under the terms of the WGC.

It would be a lot more legitimate than the real-world business going on in America over bathroom laws, I tell you what.

They don't give two pl***s at the moment, in fact it seems they're barely even aware of any rebellion.

Funny how things can sneak up on you like that.
tumblr_m3d8pbgOiX1qengqso1_500.jpg


Why would Ulfric care about an all-out war with Cyrodiil, though? All he wants is independence for his country. Sure, he mentions when he wins that more Legionnaires will be coming to try to take it back, but doesn't that weaken Cyrodiil's own defenses more?

Seems like a silly thing to do with the Dominion right on the opposite doorstep, waiting to invade Cyrodiil.

P.S. Nice to see you back in the discussion, DM.
I would love to see an independent Skyrim. Just not while a Dominion threat looms. It's not the right time or circumstance.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
A CIVIL WAR is a silly thing to start with the Dominion on your door step.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
As I mentioned earlier, a simpler way to get around the Talos issue is to have Skyrim formally secede from the Empire, thereby not including them under the terms of the WGC.

It would be a lot more legitimate than the real-world business going on in America over bathroom laws, I tell you what.

The Stormcloaks are not Skyrim. Why on earth would they just hand the province over to Ulfric? That would just give ambitious nobles an idea for having their own kingdom. Many in Skyrim do not want to leave the Empire.

Funny how things can sneak up on you like that.

The Legion had just about handled the rebellion before Alduin turned up. There was no reason to give much thought to it and everything that is going on is happening rather quickly. Cyrodiil has no reason to focus on Skyrim until the Empire (Imperial City) decides it.

Why would Ulfric care about an all-out war with Cyrodiil, though? All he wants is independence for his country.

Which is why he cares to try not piss off Cyrodiil. You don't remain independent for long if you stir up the Imperials. They're fanatical about their Empire.

Sure, he mentions when he wins that more Legionnaires will be coming to try to take it back, but doesn't that weaken Cyrodiil's own defenses more?

Losing a third of the Empire to rebels would weaken them more than sending a few Legions to go probe Skyrim.

The Empire has been preparing for twenty six years, they're also establishing staging grounds into Morrowind in the event it is needed. Imperials don't need to fight in a single direction, it isn't the first time they've been surrounded by hostile nations.

Seems like a silly thing to do with the Dominion right on the opposite doorstep, waiting to invade Cyrodiil.

I doubt they'd invade Cyrodiil again. Didn't work out for them while the Empire was weak, unprepared and generally complacent.

Not killing them the first time was a mistake, it'll either be felt in the Second Great War or at a later date. The Dominion just kick started the Imperial war machine, they're not just going to be content with taking over the Dominion. Imperials can't help themselves and will try for all of Tamriel.
 
Last edited:

Davian

Member
The Stormcloaks are not Skyrim. Why on Nirn would they just hand the province over to Ulfric? That would just give ambitious nobles an idea for having their own kingdom. Many in Skyrim do not want to leave the Empire.

They can move, then. :p
---
Skyrim is a lot like Switzerland in some respects. It's protected by heavily mountainous terrain, its people are not afraid to pick up arms to defend themselves, but they also just want to be left alone (except for those you mentioned, who want to be a part of the Empire/European Union.)

And sure, there are going to be ambitious nobles seeking to further divide up land into their own fiefdoms. That's human nature, isn't it? But since the Imperials seem to care so little for the "stupid" Nords anyway, other than to have extra cannon fodder and a trading partner, wouldn't it be better to not have to expend military resources defending them and focus on your own territory? This is what I mean about imperial colonialism. Sure, the Province of Skyrim has been a part of the Empire for eras, but the same can be said of other regions of other former empires that are now independent.

Canada and the United States were once part of the British Empire. One fought for independence like the Nords are doing; one peacefully separated.

All I'm saying is, cut your losses and defend your homeland. We'll join you later against the real enemy. But we're still angry at you for writing up a treaty that suppresses our right to free worship.






The Legion had just about handled the rebellion before Alduin turned up. There was no reason to give much thought to it and everything that is going on is happening rather quickly. Cyrodiil has no reason to focus on Skyrim until the Empire (Imperial City) decides it.

So, if there's no reason to care about Skyrim until something happens, why care about it at all? In the words of the great philosopher Elsa the Snow Queen, "Let it go."


Which is why he cares to try not piss off Cyrodiil. You don't remain independent for long if you stir up the Imperials. They're fanatical about their Empire.

AHA! Well, there you have it. Just as religiously fanatical about something as the Dominion are, as the Sons of Skyrim are. You just proved you're no better.




Losing a third of the Empire to rebels would weaken them more than sending a few Legions to go probe Skyrim.
Okay, but you're talking about territory more than people. An empire doesn't have to be vast in physical size to have great influence. Imperials are already master negotiators and traders. I would think that any good business-person would want to cut costs as much as possible, and externalize anything they didn't need to get their grubby little hands on.


The Empire has been preparing for twenty six years, they're also establishing staging grounds into Morrowind in the event it is needed. Imperials don't need to fight in a single direction, it isn't the first time they've been surrounded by hostile nations.

You know what, though? Hitler thought the same thing. Didn't work out so well.



I doubt they'd invade Cyrodiil again. Didn't work out for them while the Empire was weak, unprepared and generally complacent.

If the Dominion isn't preparing to invade Cyrodiil again, then what in Talos' name are they preparing to do??



Not killing them the first time was a mistake, it'll either be felt in the Second Great War or at a later date. The Dominion just kick started the Imperial war machine, they're not just going to be content with taking over the Dominion. Imperials can't help themselves and will try for all of Tamriel.

Well, you've proven it yourself. The people who control the Empire are just as aspirational as the Dominion. Conquerors. And conquerors must be stopped.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
but they also just want to be left alone (except for those you mentioned, who want to be a part of the Empire/European Union.)

Nords are one of the most violent expansionist races in Tamriel. The Dunmer are a race that want to be left alone, the Nords however don't leave other people alone.

But since the Imperials seem to care so little for the "stupid" Nords anyway, other than to have extra cannon fodder and a trading partner, wouldn't it be better to not have to expend military resources defending them and focus on your own territory?

Stupid? Nords and Imperials are the most closely tied races in Tamriel. Having founded Empires together, even sharing royal lineage. What happens to one effects the other. The gains of Skyrim within the Empire out shine any military expenses.

Canada and the United States were once part of the British Empire. One fought for independence like the Nords are doing; one peacefully separated.

No the Nords are not doing. The Stormcloaks do not represent the Nordic people, hence a Civil War. This isn't Skyrim vs the Empire, but Eastern Skyrim vs Western Skyrim.

So, if there's no reason to care about Skyrim until something happens, why care about it at all? In the words of the great philosopher Elsa the Snow Queen, "Let it go."

There is no reason for Cyrodiil to care. The Empire's leadership cares, but Cyrodiil itself has no real reason. Like saying why doesn't High Rock care about Skyrim. Cyrodiil is a province in the Empire just like Skyrim, both answer to the Council.

Okay, but you're talking about territory more than people. An empire doesn't have to be vast in physical size to have great influence. Imperials are already master negotiators and traders. I would think that any good business-person would want to cut costs as much as possible, and externalize anything they didn't need to get their grubby little hands on.

Seriously? Having the Empire split in half doesn't help them business wise. You just cut off Cyrodiil and High Rock so obviously the Empire will collapse. That is the opposite of being a good business-person.


You know what, though? Hitler thought the same thing. Didn't work out so well.

Hitler has nothing to do with this debate.

If the Dominion isn't preparing to invade Cyrodiil again, then what in Talos' name are they preparing to do??

Probably something that isn't as direct as invading again.

Well, you've proven it yourself. The people who control the Empire are just as aspirational as the Dominion. Conquerors. And conquerors must be stopped.

Bro, do you even Nord? They're not defensive people who want to be left alone, they attack and try to expand their holdings any chance they get.
 

Davian

Member
Nords are one of the most violent expansionist races in Tamriel. The Dunmer are a race that want to be left alone, the Nords however don't leave other people alone.
I'll concede this point, although if you want to be technical, it was the Atmorans who kicked the Snow Elves out of Skyrim.


The Stormcloaks do not represent the Nordic people, hence a Civil War. This isn't Skyrim vs the Empire, but Eastern Skyrim vs Western Skyrim.
Stupid? Nords and Imperials are the most closely tied races in Tamriel. Having founded Empires together, even sharing royal lineage. What happens to one effects the other. The gains of Skyrim within the Empire outshine any military expenses.

Yet you continue to insult the Stormcloaks (who are mostly Nords) for being unintelligent. They are competent enough to run their own affairs, as are the people of Hammerfell, as are the people of High Rock. You may disagree with me and believe an independent Skyrim would fracture further into Eastern and Western Skyrim, but shouldn't that be up to the Nordic people to decide? Having an overbearing empire enforcing its will on those who no longer wish to be a part of it is oppressive. Same thing happened with Virginia and West Virginia in the US Civil War. West Virginians wanted to be on the Union side, so they split from Virginia.


So, if there's no reason to care about Skyrim until something happens, why care about it at all? In the words of the great philosopher Elsa the Snow Queen, "Let it go."
There is no reason for Cyrodiil to care. The Empire's leadership cares, but Cyrodiil itself has no real reason. Like saying why doesn't High Rock care about Skyrim. Cyrodiil is a province in the Empire just like Skyrim, both answer to the Council.
Perhaps we know who the real threat is then in this Civil War. It's the Council. I'm going to have to instruct my Dragonborn/Stormcloak/Listener to go after them next. Hell, I usually kill Amaund Motierre anyway.



Okay, but you're talking about territory more than people. An empire doesn't have to be vast in physical size to have great influence. Imperials are already master negotiators and traders. I would think that any good business-person would want to cut costs as much as possible, and externalize anything they didn't need to get their grubby little hands on.
Seriously? Having the Empire split in half doesn't help them business wise. You just cut off Cyrodiil and High Rock so obviously the Empire will collapse. That is the opposite of being a good business-person.

Sea trade wouldn't be impeded at all, and as for land trade? It's already impeded by the mere fact that the most direct route from High Rock to Cyrodiil through Skyrim is through the Reach.

Depending on whom you ask, the Reach is either controlled by Jarl Igmund and the Empire, Thonar Silverblood and his family (sympathetic to the Stormcloaks), or the Forsworn. It's like Bloods, Crips, and Hell's Angels all fighting over a relatively small piece of land. If I were an Imperial merchant, --scratch that-- if I were a merchant, period-- I wouldn't want to go anywhere near it.


Hitler has nothing to do with this debate.
All I was saying was that fighting a war on two fronts is not a good idea. You'll spread your forces too thin. As well, I believe that the comparison of Nazi soldiers dying in Siberia is an apt comparison to Legionnaires dying of exposure in the frozen wastes of northernmost Skyrim. This wasn't a comparison of the Nazis themselves to the Imperials, but rather their idea that they can both fight off the Dominion and the Stormcloaks at the same time.

Just like how the Nazis tried to fight both Allied attacks coming from the west and Russian attacks from the east, the impact is going to eat away at Imperial forces until it either cripples them, or becomes like the War in Vietnam did for the States. They will have to pull out and negotiate another treaty. (Seems like the only thing Imperials are good at doing. Hah!)


If the Dominion isn't preparing to invade Cyrodiil again, then what in Talos' name are they preparing to do??

Probably something that isn't as direct as invading again.

Wouldn't put it past them, but I feel like their designs on world domination wouldn't be complete without controlling the entire map. Perhaps a few Altmer-Imperial marriages of convenience would be all they would need to secure power in Cyrodiil instead of taking it by open force, and then they could secretly control Cyrodiil that way. Just spitballing, of course.


Well, you've proven it yourself. The people who control the Empire are just as aspirational as the Dominion. Conquerors. And conquerors must be stopped.

Bro, do you even Nord? They're not defensive people who want to be left alone, they attack and try to expand their holdings any chance they get.

Whether or not the Nords are born conquerors does not preclude or eliminate that the Imperials are as well.

I do Nord, if that means being a proud warrior in battle, but many Nords don't care who rules them, as long as the coin is flowing in. For every Erikur that says "Imperials are good for business", there's a Hulda saying "Well, the Stormcloak guards drink a lot more than the Imperials did, so I've been making more money lately. On the other hand, they're a violent bunch. Every night a fight breaks out and I end up with a smashed chair or a broken table. So, not much has changed, really."

If you think that proves your own point, though, that's kind of a false connection, because a sizeable portion of Skyrim is quite upset at the terms of the WGC. Religious persecution should not be tolerated.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
*Yawn*

Nords talking about freedom is almost as much a contradiction as Imperials talking about freedom.

No matter who wins, no one is going to be free to do anything except suffer, rebuild, sacrifice and pay more taxes to someone.

That's it. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the kitchen. Cookin' up a Storm woo-hoo!
 
Last edited:

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
Looks like thread is back to its old days, lmfo.

Tho, heres my opinion. Once Al-du-in comes back, it will be Nirin-Caput!! End of the world.

But till then, Skyrim should be client state of Empire, with Ulfric as High King. If Talius and Ulfric dealt about this, Talos would be free to worship in Sk, Empire would contniue its growth at similiar rate as before (tax on Skyrim), plus if they estamblished trade agreement, both sides would be equaly happy. I think they should have considered this. Most important part, 0 men lost!!

But all this is under big IF, cuz no1 ever considered this in-game, + Ulfric wants Sk to be 100% free, so it aint suprising why this didnt cross his mind. But it should have crossed Talius's mind, and then make a proposal to Ulfric.
 

Davian

Member
Looks like thread is back to its old days, lmfo.

Tho, heres my opinion. Once Al-du-in comes back, it will be Nirin-Caput!! End of the world.

But till then, Skyrim should be client state of Empire, with Ulfric as High King. If Talius and Ulfric dealt about this, Talos would be free to worship in Sk, Empire would contniue its growth at similiar rate as before (tax on Skyrim), plus if they estamblished trade agreement, both sides would be equaly happy. I think they should have considered this. Most important part, 0 men lost!!

But all this is under big IF, cuz no1 ever considered this in-game, + Ulfric wants Sk to be 100% free, so it aint suprising why this didnt cross his mind. But it should have crossed Talius's mind, and then make a proposal to Ulfric.
Yes. As I mentioned before, I compare Skyrim to real-world Switzerland, in that they are part of the European Economic Community, but not fully part of the Eurozone, and have no desire to be.


*Yawn*

Nords talking about freedom is almost as much a contradiction as Imperials talking about freedom.

No matter who wins, no one is going to be free to do anything except suffer, rebuild, sacrifice and pay more taxes to someone.

That's it. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the kitchen. Cookin' up a Storm woo-hoo!

Has anyone seen my jarrin root? ;)
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Looks like thread is back to its old days, lmfo.

Tho, heres my opinion. Once Al-du-in comes back, it will be Nirin-Caput!! End of the world.

But till then, Skyrim should be client state of Empire, with Ulfric as High King. If Talius and Ulfric dealt about this, Talos would be free to worship in Sk, Empire would contniue its growth at similiar rate as before (tax on Skyrim), plus if they estamblished trade agreement, both sides would be equaly happy. I think they should have considered this. Most important part, 0 men lost!!

But all this is under big IF, cuz no1 ever considered this in-game, + Ulfric wants Sk to be 100% free, so it aint suprising why this didnt cross his mind. But it should have crossed Talius's mind, and then make a proposal to Ulfric.
Yes. As I mentioned before, I compare Skyrim to real-world Switzerland, in that they are part of the European Economic Community, but not fully part of the Eurozone, and have no desire to be.


*Yawn*

Nords talking about freedom is almost as much a contradiction as Imperials talking about freedom.

No matter who wins, no one is going to be free to do anything except suffer, rebuild, sacrifice and pay more taxes to someone.

That's it. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the kitchen. Cookin' up a Storm woo-hoo!

Has anyone seen my jarrin root? ;)
Yes. I fed it to your dog.
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
We need A UNITED EMPIRE to defeat the rebuilding Aldmeri Dominion! Why can't you people see that? A newly independent Skyrim led by Ulfric and flanked by the Dragonborn would still be too weak, as its citizens and cities in general have been ravaged by a bloody civil war against their own people. If a united empire can't defeat the Thalmor, do you think a region who just got burned to a crisp by the return of the dragons, the living dead, and blind elves lurking in the shadows, can stand a chance against them? No! Unity is the solution, and you know it deep down!

What you don't see here is that Skyrim is the home of the famous faction: The Companions. I don't think I need to explain to you about their history, and how Skyrim became the home land for the Nords. Nords don't need the Empire to fight for their own battles because the Empire can't even fight their own without sacrificing the the safety of their own people just to keep an incompetent Emperor on the throne.

If the Stormcloaks wins the civil war against the Empire, and the Empire and most of the Thalmor are driven out of Skyrim will give Delphine and Esbern the opportunity to rebuild the blades faction without fearing of the Thalmor killing them due to the protection of the Stormcloaks. This will give Ulfric an additional army to aid him (One hes King) to fight against the Thalmor if they ever do come back with vengeance. While Delphine and Ulfric doesn't see eye to eye they both have a common arch enemy.

Unity with a broken Empire is the last thing Skyrim needs. Sure Skyrim has their own set of problems, but they can do without the Empire.

Ulfric Stormcloak doesn't give a plops about the Empire. His priority is with Skyrim. Is about time someone does because that puppet of the Empire Torygg obviously did not. All he was worried about is how many parties he can take his spoiled entitled wife to.
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top