Your thoughts on the invincible children

[Demut]

What are your feelings on this issue?

I for one dislike the idea of having invulnerable NPCs, period. Especially when the reasons for this are of purely political nature since Bethesda doesn’t seem to have the balls to deal with the possible controversy that could arise from this. The rating wouldn’t be a problem since it already is at “Mature”. I am pretty disappointed about this decision. Hopefully the Radiant Story will respond to children’s deaths if it is modded in so that we have at least this way a possibility to correct this bad design choice.

I mean, come on, Bethesda, what the heck? So if a dragon burns a village to cinders a bunch snotty brats will stand unharmed amidst the ashes afterwards? How stupid is that? It totally ruined the immersion of the respective part in “Fallout”.

 

[hexperiment]

I understand if they are essential to the game, i.e. the guy who gives you quest to unlock some stuff.

as for the children, it's good that they added it into the elder scroll universe. I don't really care about whether they can be killed or not though. I'm not going to go around and murder them or anything and I doubt they will come across your path and interfere with their immortality. Child murder can be used to tell a story but it's definitely not something to enjoy. And I know there's a lot of people who's going to enjoy murdering little children. It's probably the best that you can't murder children just so that the soccer moms won't rise up and drive us crazy.

 

[Demut]

They will nag no matter what, I assure you.

And certainly, child murder is not something that one should enjoy. But the same goes for any murder, does it not? It’s first and foremost a matter of immersion. For example, this way you can’t us children in quests to create a dramatic story (e.g. “Oh noes, my daughter has been kidnapped, please rescue her”) because there is nothing to worry about. You can’t fail. They are immortal.

I don’t know if you played “Fallout 3” but there was the possibility of blowing up an entire town. Unfortunately, some of its residents were immortal and so if you went to the crater they just stood there. That’s simply crappy game design.

 

[hexperiment]

We don't know if they are going to be naggers and clingy.

I think there's a strict difference between murdering people who can fend for themselves and murdering people who can't fend for themselves i.e. the children. They are both bad but the latter has greater shock value. I understand the whole immersion part but I just don't think it's worth it if Bethesda is going to get a lot of complaints from angry moms and moralists. The game rating could even go higher than it already is. Children is not the major part of the game anyway. They're just there because it's absurd to have a world without children like Oblivion. They could be part of the story in interesting ways but we don't really need to have them killed for immersion. In a scenario where you need to rescue a kid, your probably need to break into the kidnapper's hideout. They won't be murdering the kid anyway since they kidnapped him for a reason. They'll come after you who's trying to get the kid back home. The kid is not going to fight obviously so that'll leave them out of the whole 'the scene where kid might have died but he didn't so there goes my immersion'

I did play fallout 3. I remember blowing up megatown but I don't remember anyone standing there. Just a big crater and nothing else. All the NPCs there just disappeared. That's pretty scripted and it's not a direct murder like shooting them in the eye.

 

[Demut]

That’s weird. For me Moira remained there for some time. A bugs perhaps? God knows there were many of those.

Again, the rating won’t be a problem. Take a look at other games that let you kill children. They were rated “Mature” at worst. Also, this is not about “having them killed for immersion” but rather about including the possibility. I don’t need to see them die but if there is a situation in which everyone else dies (e.g. the aforementioned dragon attack) it would be borderline retarded to have them spared.

Oh and by the way, children can fend for themselves, they are just worse at it than adults. An adult weakling wouldn’t get that sort of pity, now would he? Seeing how we witnessed even mass murders in some titles (like in “Prototype”) it seems dishonest to claim that mortal children in video games somehow cross a line. It’s not that huge of a leap as some people make it out to be.

 

[MellowGuy]

I hate when politics try to interfere with my personal gaming preferences. I'll admit I'm not the most enlightened thinker on a lot of things but I hope developers find a loop hole on these silly restrictions that only really serve political agenda. Soccer mom's have a right to nag because they need to protect children from disturbing content. But they should just have a lockout or filter feature similar to how you lockout adult content or blood and gore on many other platforms (And that should be enough).

I'm not saying I enjoy killing children, but its a game and I'm an adult. I'm paying almost $100 dollars for a game so I'd like certain "options" under my control. But ah well, Bethesda needs to make sales or they'll go out of business.

 

[hexperiment]

I believe Moira was too important that they made her survive but turned her into a ghoul or something. But yeah, I don't like censorship either overall. I don't know any games where you can murder children but if they did, I'm pretty sure they had their ass busted by people who feels so protective of their children. I dunno, maybe I might feel the same way once I experience having a child and stuff. Also, I think we can call agree that child murder is more shocking and attention grabbing than adult murder. Some may call it double standard but I believe it has to do with instinct in general. Mammals are fiercely protective of their younglings.

I don't mind the possibility of child death in the game but I don't find it all that necessary overall, especially with people who will be extremely vocal about this. Bethesda decided to bend by their rule and I think it's reasonable. Besides, you can just mod to get kill-able children. I don't think it's a big issue and frankly, I'm surprised some people are quite vocal about this issue, supporting child mortality. But still, majority will think its horrible and shouldn't be in the game. It's a little sacrifice to avoid a huge disaster.

 

[Demut]

Soccer mom's have a right to nag because they need to protect children from disturbing content.

How about not buying 18+ rated games for their children then? They have no reason to complain about a game that is intended for adults having adult content.

I don't know any games where you can murder children [...]

Fallout 1 and 2?

But still, majority will think its horrible and shouldn't be in the game.

A majority of whom? Gamers? That seems unlikely. And why would Bethesda care about anyone else who is not their customer?

 

[hexperiment]

thanks for pointing that out, but when I meant majority, I mean everyone. Also, I doubt majority of gamers would want child murder in the game. We, the gamers who talk about games on forums, are minority... These days the average gamer age is around 35 years old. Quite a proportion of them would already have a family or at least preparing to have one. Anyways, the issue is not about gaming but the whole moral issue stuff so gamers aren't the only ones who are debating this. Bethesda is trying to appeal to 'wider' audience too. Otherwise, they won't grow. Also, having a large group of angry mom breathing down your neck is not profitable at all. It's not a bright idea to implement child death to appease a small group of consumers and piss off a lot of people, including non-consumers.

I'm just saying that Bethesda made a reasonable decision as a corporate. It's the next installment of the Elder Scrolls universe and they want it to go smoothly with positive reviews blah blah blah. They really don't need it make it harder than it already is.

 

[Demut]

In my eyes this is a matter of principle :x

Two quick things though:
1) Do you have any evidence to back up that claim of the average gamer’s age ;p ?

2) Why would they want to keep growing? That mentality is counterproductive and contributes to massive problems for the economy on a global scale. Why can’t they be comfortable with their current size and enjoy the millions of fans that they already have? Trying to appeal to a broader audience at all costs is unnecessary and stupid in my opinion (even more so if one is already that popular).

 

[hexperiment]

1.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp
"The average game player is 37 years old and has been playing games for 12 years."
here's one source. There's many others like it out there.

2.
because of money. there's nothing more than that honestly. gaming industry is growing and bethesda's gotta keep up with all the huge corporations

 

[Demut]

1) Wow, I did not expect that. I stand corrected. In that case you probably do have a point with your assumption.

2) How do they have to keep up with the corporations in order to survive? They are able to produce quality games. What else would they need :<> ?

 

[Renegader]

This is why some games don't have children because it sparks major controversy.

Children should be able to be killed, but perhaps inconspicuously. You shouldn't be able to walk up to a child and decapitate them. Now that's already out of the question. Although, if a dragon raids a town they should still die, not just walk around in a desolate town aimlessly.

 

[hexperiment]

1) Wow, I did not expect that. I stand corrected. In that case you probably do have a point with your assumption.

2) How do they have to keep up with the corporations in order to survive? They are able to produce quality games. What else would they need :<> ?

eh... well obviously making quality game is one thing. another would be making games that would appeal to everyone and when I mean by everyone, I mean majority of the people. also marketing etc... but we don't need to go into that detail, really.

I really don't feel like discussing this any further just because I think people are making it bigger than it really is. I mean, I don't care whether I can kill a child or not in the game. I won't do that anyway. Even if I did want to for some reason, it's a very small part of the game. I rather talk about more important game mechanics like perks and combat. I just feel that it's trivial. Just like how people say there should be nudity in the game. I'm pretty sure there's some degree of lewd reference in the game but I don't really need boobs in the game to actually enjoy it. I suppose when a game is as good as Skyrim, people will nit-pick small stuff, even when there's really no point in it and could create a huge controversy mess.

That said, it was a nice discussion.

 

[Jeruhmi]

Well if it's to save them from media spotlight regarding controversy, then it's fine with me. It doesn't really matter much to me if this only effects one NPC.

 

[Demut]

Again, you have little influence over the whole controversy thing. The media (especially the US American one) is known for being sensationalist. Do you guys remember the “Mass Effect” controversy where Faux News tried to portray it as some sort of sex simulator? Preposterous. They’ll attack you even if your game is perfectly fine.

And as I said, it’s a thing of integrity. I don’t think many gamers are enraged if a developer simply decided to not have these things in there for mere design reasons. But when they learn that those changes were made because some douchebag politician or the like who felt the need to play a bit of the good ol’ holier-than-thou / think-of-the-children then it’s just reasonable that they get aggravated. It’s not their frickin’ business to tell adult citizens what they can and cannot do in video games.

Children should be able to be killed, but perhaps inconspicuously. You shouldn't be able to walk up to a child and decapitate them.

Yeah, that does seem unnecessary.

 

[N3w_2_$kyr1min]

I agree, they should be kill-able. Not that I want to go around killing children, I'm sure most people don't.. and for the people who do, at least they'll be doing is virtually instead of physically. Bethesda should go all the way with immersion, there's nothing illegal about it so they're really just making them invincible because they're worried about critics..

 

[Demut]

Given hexperiment’s suggestion I can almost understand it though :/ If the majority of your consumers are parents themselves it might not be such a good idea to include this. I guess Bethesda would have to see some polls first which showed that their customers would be okay with it before they would agree.

 

[Hellfire]

i want them to be killed but i dont want to kill a child myself, cause it would seem realistic

 

[Jeruhmi]

Well I see where they're coming from. It's the sort of thing game developers want to stray away from their games. They don't want to be the blame for the next school massacre, right?