Why did Tullius bring Thalmor Elenwen to the Greybeards truce meeting

[High King of Skyrim]

Whilst I agree that the Thalmor benefit the most from the rebellion, it is hardly their doing in my opinion. It is rather the result of strict laws being imposed on the people of Skyrim by the Imperial authorities therein. The fact the Thalmor operate throughout Skyrim, under Imperial law, adopting questionable tactics and of coarse the manipulation of the whole situation by none other than Jarl Ulfric. Ulfric spreads his anti-Imperial rhetoric, thus sowing the seeds of discontent amongst his countrymen, however, as I've indicated on numerous occasions, the Empire makes it easy for him by their perceived indifference of the plight of Skyrim's citizens. The history between Skyrim and elves is turbulent at best and thus requires special care in my opinion and the Thalmor roaming unchecked throughout Skyrim, although legal, has taken it's toll on some of Skyrim's citizens. It would appear Skyrim grows impatient for the second Great War, perhaps the Empire should act soon, or risk Skyrim renouncing them, thus destroying any hope they have of victory over the Dominion. That is what I believe is at the heart of this rebellion.

The White-Gold Concordat was poorly enforced during the twenty six years it has been in place. It wasn't the result of strict laws being imposed since the Empire was doing a poor job enforcing the ban on Talos.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

Also reading 'Flight from the Thalmor'

It was in one of these cities - Markarth, to be exact - where I made the conscious decision to defy the ban on Talos worship. And my defiance came in the form of - what else? - a song. For what bard who has spent time writing and rehearsing an original work can possible refrain from performing it? So perform it I did. Not once, not twice, but seven times. Once a day, for an entire week.

Hadrik Oaken-Heart was able to violate the terms of the treaty for seven days, in Markarth which is the headquarters of the Thalmor Justiciars, the group that enforces the ban of talos. This shows just how weak enforcement of the treaty was.

The Thalmor can't violate the treaty in front of the Empire. They're not allowed to simply do what they want, they make use of informants and khajiit assassins. The head of the Justiciars in Markarth can't even have one citizen arrested without evidence. Legion soldiers will attack the Thalmor if the try kill you.

The Civil War is indeed the Thalmor doing and what they intended to happen, they're also keeping it going. The Thalmor were at Helgan trying to save Ulfric Stormcloak from execution, his death would of made for a swift Imperial victory harming their overall position within Skyrim.

Ulfric Stormcloak is an asset to the Thalmor, knowing or unknowing. Ulfric instigating the Civil War is exactly what the Thalmor wanted.

"You realize this is exactly what they wanted." - Tullius
"What who wanted?" - Galmar
"The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion." - Tullius

"We're supposedly at peace now, but I put in to be stationed here to keep an eye on the Thalmor, I have a feeling they're behind this unrest here in Skyrim." - Legate Fasendil

Skyrim isn't the only province that has a history with Elves. The humans of Cyrodiil were enslaved and tortured by Elves, Cyrodiil itself has also clashed with the Aldmeri Dominion in the past during the Second and Third Empire's

I'm talking about the current political climate in Skyrim, not back when "Everyone had their own little shrine of Talos" - Alvor. True, the Empire was relaxed about the terms of the conrcordat back then, but by Alvor's own admission, this changed due to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, not the Thalmor as you've insinuated. I believe it was this crack down, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and drove previously neutral and peace loving Nords towards the Stormcloaks. The harsh terms imposed by the Thalmor through the concordat, finally became real for the people of Skyrim at this time. I acknowledge, that the Empire are doing what is necessary to keep the peace but therein lies the problem, not all Nords are as understanding to the Empire's plight as others may be. Ulfric, offers them another way. Another path.

DrunkenMage said: Skyrim isn't the only province that has a history with Elves. The humans of Cyrodiil were enslaved and tortured by Elves, Cyrodiil itself has also clashed with the Aldmeri Dominion in the past during the Second and Third Empire's[

Whilst this is true, it still doesn't change the fact that Skyrim's population is largely prejudiced towards Elves and thus requires that slightly more delicate touch. The good people of Cyrodil have obviously gotten over their past as slaves under the Ayleids but clearly Skyrim remains bitter for the most part. Remembering also, that if not for the Nords, the Imperials could have never hoped to defeat the Ayleids alone, an opinion not lost on any Nord. So the fact the Empire is seen to be siding with the Thalmor by enforcing the ban on Talos simply reinforces the Stormcloak's view of a betrayal, even if you and I know better. The Thalmor running about Skyrim arresting and torturing people only exacerbates this already volatile situation "We should be fighting those witch-elves, not bending knee to them" - Vignar Grey Mane.

My point is the Empire is losing it's grip on an old friend in Skyrim, perhaps even through it's own complacency rather than Thalmor undermining, which is no doubt present. The clock is ticking for the Empire in more ways than one and if it sits idle any longer it cannot hope to win the coming Great War, not without Skyrim in it's ranks.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm talking about the current political climate in Skyrim, not back when "Everyone had their own little shrine of Talos" - Alvor. True, the Empire was relaxed about the terms of the conrcordat back then, but by Alvor's own admission, this changed due to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, not the Thalmor as you've insinuated. I believe it was this crack down, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and drove previously neutral and peace loving Nords towards the Stormcloaks. The harsh terms imposed by the Thalmor through the concordat, finally became real for the people of Skyrim at this time. I acknowledge, that the Empire are doing what is necessary to keep the peace but therein lies the problem, not all Nords are as understanding to the Empire's plight as others may be. Ulfric, offers them another way. Another path

It changed due to the Thalmor, the rebellion was born due to the 'Markarth Incident'

The Talos Ban wasn't gaining Ulfric the support he wanted, so it wasn't the 'straw' Torygg's death was the straw. "He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support..."

The Markarth Incident, where Ulfric retook the Reach and demanded free worship of Talos. The Legion agreed with reports of deaths rising every day within Markarth. The Thalmor using this opportunity demanded the arrest of Ulfric Stormcloak and his Militia or it was back to war.

Ulfric's father died during his imprisonment in an Imperial jail, Ulfric having to smuggle his eulogy out of prison via letter, the reason of his anger towards the Empire.

My father, the great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth Incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects. When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne.

Afterwards High King Istlod died and the moot was convened as a mere formality. Ulfric used the moot to voice his desire for an independent Skyrim free of Imperial rule, just shy of treason. Soon after Ulfric traveled to Solitude and killed High King Torygg, he fled back to Windhelm and declared war on the Western Holds.

The Thalmor making use of the Civil War started their large 'Inquisitions' providing indirect aid to Ulfric and his Stormcloaks to keep the war going.

We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming.

The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

Whilst this is true, it still doesn't change the fact that Skyrim's population is largely prejudiced towards Elves and thus requires that slightly more delicate touch. The good people of Cyrodil have obviously gotten over their past as slaves under the Ayleids but clearly Skyrim remains bitter for the most part. Remembering also, that if not for the Nords, the Imperials could have never hoped to defeat the Ayleids alone, an opinion not lost on any Nord. So the fact the Empire is seen to be siding with the Thalmor by enforcing the ban on Talos simply reinforces the Stormcloak's view of a betrayal, even if you and I know better. The Thalmor running about Skyrim arresting and torturing people only exacerbates this already volatile situation "We should be fighting those witch-elves, not bending knee to them" - Vignar Grey Mane.

Skyrim's population is generally prejudiced towards everyone. Nords generally dislike outsiders which goes with the "Skyrim for the Nords" you here from some Nords when in combat. Speaking with the Free-Winter fellow in Windhelm gives you the meaning of the phrase. In which he asks you are you one of them "Skyrim for the Nords type?" you can answer depending if you're a Nord or Non-Nord "Yes outsiders do not belong" or "Yes outsiders like me shouldn't be here" or something along those lines.

The Nords themselves were not the only factor in the freedom of the people of Cyrodiil. Alessia's slave revolt occurred during an Ayleid Civil War. It was as much the help of rebel Ayleid Lords as it was the Nords.

My point is the Empire is losing it's grip on an old friend in Skyrim, perhaps even through it's own complacency rather than Thalmor undermining, which is no doubt present. The clock is ticking for the Empire in more ways than one and if it sits idle any longer it cannot hope to win the coming Great War, not without Skyrim in it's ranks.

Skryim has never been "fair-weathered friends". They're probably the most troublesome province in the Empire. If they're not invading neighbor provinces they're rebelling against Cyrodiil.

The Empire probably doesn't need Skyrim for the next outbreak of warfare. Most of the Legions are already tied down on the Dominion's border. The Empire is unwilling to abandon Skyrim because a large number of the population want to remain part of the Empire. Though of course a united Empire is better for everyone, it more than likely doesn't truly need Skyrim if it becomes too much of a hassle to maintain.

It is Skyrim that depends heavily on the Empire for food and resources. Most of the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. Stormcloaks don't like to buy things from non-nords so their xenophobic methods will have to change if they plan on eating at all.

Though I believe the political situation post Stormcloak victory is what is going to undermine them the most. Racial segregation and the enslavement of a native population. Skyrim doesn't have many friends except Cyrodiil and Cyrodiil isn't going to be as friendly if the Stormcloaks win.

Chances are the Stormcloaks will end up dying on their suicide death run of taking their entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion. Then the Empire can stroll back into Skyrim.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - Tullius.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

DrunkenMage said: It changed due to the Thalmor, the rebellion was born due to the 'Markarth Incident'

The Thalmor wasn't behind the Markarth Incident, Ulfric committed atrocities and the Empire flat out lied, it was not mankind's finest hour, that's obvious but I fail to see how the Thalmor played any role in this tragedy at all. Their involvement is after the fact.

DrunkenMage said: The Talos Ban wasn't gaining Ulfric the support he wanted, so it wasn't the 'straw' Torygg's death was the straw. "He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support..."

You must've misunderstood my statement, as I was never suggesting the Talos ban itself was the straw that broke the camel's back for the Nords but rather the increased Thalmor activity and Imperial influence on the general populace after the Empire was forced to crack down. You see, until that point, the terms of the White Gold Concordat would have meant very little to the average Nord but to have the ban actually enforced by the Empire as we are seeing in the game is another matter entirely. Coupled with the Thalmor doing as they please whilst under the noses of the Empire and you have a situation reaching boiling point. Hardly ideal preparation for the coming war, from an Imperial point of view.

DrunkenMage said: Skyrim's population is generally prejudiced towards everyone. Nords generally dislike outsiders which goes with the "Skyrim for the Nords" you here from some Nords when in combat. Speaking with the Free-Winter fellow in Windhelm gives you the meaning of the phrase. In which he asks you are you one of them "Skyrim for the Nords type?" you can answer depending if you're a Nord or Non-Nord "Yes outsiders do not belong" or "Yes outsiders like me shouldn't be here" or something along those lines.

The Nords themselves were not the only factor in the freedom of the people of Cyrodiil. Alessia's slave revolt occurred during an Ayleid Civil War. It was as much the help of rebel Ayleid Lords as it was the Nords.

Clever use of the word generally, as this is a generalisation if ever I've heard one. A few bandits and what they shout as they're trying to murder you should obviously be taken with a grain of salt. The stigma Nords suffer about being prejudiced is an unfair one in my view. A percentage of the population is weary of elves, and with good reason but any other prejudice aside from what we see in Windhelm is afforded only to the Thalmor, who are justifying said prejudice by what they're doing to the Nords, under Imperial protection no less.
Remember that the blacksmith in Dawnstar has a Redguard wife and baby on the way and Adrienne Avenicci, an Imperial is married to a Nord blacksmith in Whiterun. Solitude is as cosmopolitan as you'll find anywhere.

I never suggested the Nords were the only factor in the freedom of the people of Cyrodil, but their involvement cannot be understated and it cannot be denied that without their aid, victory simply would have eluded the Cyrodils. Nobody fights elves better than the Nords.

DrunkenMage said: The Empire probably doesn't need Skyrim for the next outbreak of warfare. Most of the Legions are already tied down on the Dominion's border. The Empire is unwilling to abandon Skyrim because a large number of the population want to remain part of the Empire. Though of course a united Empire is better for everyone, it more than likely doesn't truly need Skyrim if it becomes too much of a hassle to maintain.

This statement is in fact laughable and frankly, one I'm surprised somebody as learned as you would make, all due respect. Tell that to General Jonna and the like and see what kind of reaction you get. Here's the geography :

Take Skyrim out of the red zone and Cyrodil is cut off from High Rock for starters and secondly will lose arguably it's fiercest warriors for the fight against the Thalmor.

DrunkenMage said: It is Skyrim that depends heavily on the Empire for food and resources. Most of the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. Stormcloaks don't like to buy things from non-nords so their xenophobic methods will have to change if they plan on eating at all.

Untrue, Skyrim was fine long before the Empire and will be fine long after the Empire left. It has an abundance of resources and it's people are survivors. Stormcloaks are a minority and therefor don't speak for Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Thalmor wasn't behind the Markarth Incident, Ulfric committed atrocities and the Empire flat out lied, it was not mankind's finest hour, that's obvious but I fail to see how the Thalmor played any role in this tragedy at all. Their involvement is after the fact.

The Markarth Incident was valuable to the Thalmor, though it resulted in Ulfric being uncooperative to direct contact. To deny Thalmor involvement in the Civil War and that they're behind it is foolish. The Civil War didn't break out and the Thalmor went "Oh that was lucky." They stirred up trouble and are keeping the Civil War going, hoping for a long drawn out conflict to weaken the Empire.

Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, his actions are by extension doing what they want.

You must've misunderstood my statement, as I was never suggesting the Talos ban itself was the straw that broke the camel's back for the Nords but rather the increased Thalmor activity and Imperial influence on the general populace after the Empire was forced to crack down. You see, until that point, the terms of the White Gold Concordat would have meant very little to the average Nord but to have the ban actually enforced by the Empire as we are seeing in the game is another matter entirely. Coupled with the Thalmor doing as they please whilst under the noses of the Empire and you have a situation reaching boiling point. Hardly ideal preparation for the coming war, from an Imperial point of view.

What you're seeing in game is the Civil War has already broken out. It is past boiling point. Increased Thalmor activity occurred during the outbreak of warfare. "When we destroy the rebellion, perhaps the Thalmor will call off their damned inquisitions. It's just making things worse."

Clever use of the word generally, as this is a generalisation if ever I've heard one. A few bandits and what they shout as they're trying to murder you should obviously be taken with a grain of salt. The stigma Nords suffer about being prejudiced is an unfair one in my view. A percentage of the population is weary of elves, and with good reason but any other prejudice aside from what we see in Windhelm is afforded only to the Thalmor, who are justifying said prejudice by what they're doing to the Nords, under Imperial protection no less.
Remember that the blacksmith in Dawnstar has a Redguard wife and baby on the way and Adrienne Avenicci, an Imperial is married to a Nord blacksmith in Whiterun. Solitude is as cosmopolitan as you'll find anywhere.

I never suggested the Nords were the only factor in the freedom of the people of Cyrodil, but their involvement cannot be understated and it cannot be denied that without their aid, victory simply would have eluded the Cyrodils. Nobody fights elves better than the Nords.

It is more than just bandits, how all Nords tend to treat you regarding race is quite well known. Unless you wish to call Stormcloak soldiers mere 'bandits'. Most Nords dislike outsiders, that is normal in their society. While they do tolerate outsiders, they won't be friendly.

Of course you will see races mixing together, but you will still get the outsider feel when playing as a different race from Nord.

This statement is in fact laughable and frankly, one I'm surprised somebody as learned as you would make, all due respect. Tell that to General Jonna and the like and see what kind of reaction you get. Here's the geography

Take Skyrim out of the red zone and Cyrodil is cut off from High Rock for starters and secondly will lose arguably it's fiercest warriors for the fight against the Thalmor.

Perhaps you should reread my statement. Nearly the entire Imperial Army is located within Cyrodiil. Nords, Bretons, Imperials, Orcs etc. They're stationed along the Aldmeri Dominion's border. During the Great War, General Jonna's forces came from Skyrim with the Empire's Military being spread across the provinces.

You now have the entire army within Cyrodiil. High Rock isn't cut off, the Hammerfell borders are not closed and since a bare handful of Imperial Garrisons remain, the reinforcements that are coming are not in large supply. Losing Skyrim gives the Empire more important things to focus on. It isn't like the Imperials are begging Skyrim to remain part of the Empire, the Legion is just unwillingly to abandon a large number of citizens who wish to remain part of the Third Empire.

You also have the East Empire Trading Company that uses shipping lanes through ports all across Tamriel, transport of small numbers isn't impossible. It wouldn't require a large fleet since the soldiers coming from the provinces are not large in number.

A Nord Legion is no more stronger than Breton or Imperial. Legion training is the same no matter the race. Though Orc Berserkers are probably the finest in the Ruby Legions.

Untrue, Skyrim was fine long before the Empire and will be fine long after the Empire left. It has an abundance of resources and it's people are survivors. Stormcloaks are a minority and therefor don't speak for Skyrim.

Indeed true. It is mentioned in game that due to the harsh climate of Skyrim that farms struggle with the exception of Rorikstead. Skyrim was fine during their First Empire where they had holdings in other provinces. They have been part of the Second and Third Empires. Depending on the trade and resources they gain from the Empire. Windhelm has been without the Empire for a short time and already the stockpiles are gone, basically empty.

Skyrim thrives on trade. Now you have a Skyrim who is surrounded by provinces it has fluffed over many times in the past. A greatly weakened Skyrim is a perfect target for revenge and conquest from it's neighbors it so loved to invade and attack. Skyrim doesn't have Cyrodiil's backing like it did when it was part of the Empire.

Skyrim does have a large number of resources, especially ore. But the Nords aren't all Chuck Norris' who eat Iron and Corundum ore for breakfast

Stormcloaks are not a minority after their victory. Especially since the Pact of Chieftains becomes meaningless and Ulfric gains complete control over the Jarls through his enforcer Galmar who gets placed in charge of the Governments keeping them in line and making sure they're following Ulfric's orders.

Both sides have their motives, none are less important. But, the Thalmor are a key factor in the Civil War. They are the driving force behind it, playing both the Legion and Stormcloaks as pawns. You can't simply deny Thalmor intentions. Their goal is to weaken the Empire in a long drawn out conflict, Stormcloak or Imperial victory allows the Empire to focus back onto the Aldmeri Dominion. The Dominion and Thalmor leadership are clearly not prepared for an outbreak of war, the Civil war turns the Empire's attention internally since they can't fight a war while facing Civil War. Remove Skyrim and the Aldmeri Dominion still faces the same threat of the entire Imperial army on their doorstep. With or without Skyrim the amount of man power trickling from Skyrim will be minimal. Legion training would take too long if war broke out, so small numbers of Militia comprised of farmers, shop keepers and smiths will be negligible compared to trained Aldmeri soldiers.