Torn on the War in Skyrim

[Janus3003]

there! i deleted the post! now stop being nice, you're freaking me out..

and for the record- i'm not the one getting worked up over a videogame, that would be drunko..

I dunno, Drunko's being his usual self. He hasn't called anyone "evil" or "Hannibal Lector," though, so that's a plus.

i'm the one getting gang hated for simply having a different opinion.

You're being targeted because you're throwing fits instead of backing up your opinion with cited in-game facts, not because your opinion's different. I welcome a well-presented Stormcloak argument, I've just unfortunately never seen one.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

there! i deleted the post! now stop being nice, you're freaking me out..

and for the record- i'm not the one getting worked up over a videogame, that would be drunko..

I dunno, Drunko's being his usual self. He hasn't called anyone "evil" or "Hannibal Lector," though, so that's a plus.

i'm the one getting gang hated for simply having a different opinion.

You're being targeted because you're throwing fits instead of backing up your opinion with cited in-game facts, not because your opinion's different. I welcome a well-presented Stormcloak argument, I've just unfortunately never seen one.

Sombody's being "gang-banged"! Wow! Now the forum has definately taken a much more kinky turn.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

there! i deleted the post! now stop being nice, you're freaking me out..

and for the record- i'm not the one getting worked up over a videogame, that would be drunko..

I dunno, Drunko's being his usual self. He hasn't called anyone "evil" or "Hannibal Lector," though, so that's a plus.

i'm the one getting gang hated for simply having a different opinion.

You're being targeted because you're throwing fits instead of backing up your opinion with cited in-game facts, not because your opinion's different. I welcome a well-presented Stormcloak argument, I've just unfortunately never seen one.

ok, while i don't believe that for one second lemme give you one, observe-
1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.
2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!
3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.
4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!
5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???
oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.
THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.
btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

 

[Janus3003]

ok, while i don't believe that for one second

That hit me right in the feels, Happy.

1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.

Thalmor racism neither negates nor justifies Stormcloak racism. Plus, the Thalmor are out for all non-Mer races, not just the Nords.

2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!

Alliance and truce are two entirely different things. The Empire's in no position to fight the Thalmor, no matter how much they'd love to. Sure, fighting to the bitter end sounds noble, but it just leaves everyone dead.

3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.

That's not my argument about why the Stormcloaks are racist. My argument is the Dark Elves being given crappy housing and the Argonians not being allowed in the city. The only signs of changing this come along when the Empire wins the war and Brunwulf becomes jarl.

4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!

The Empire won't join them because they're not in a position to fight the Thalmor. They'd be in a position to fight them much sooner if Ulfric weren't stirring things up. Heck, the Thalmor weren't even bothering Skyrim and the Empire could ignore the Talos ban until Ulfric decided to up and murder the king.
And if Ulfric is having so much trouble with just a small portion of the Imperial army, how does he expect to fight the Thalmor?

5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???

I just wanna repeat that the Empire has less of an alliance ("We're all friends with a common goal! ") with the Thalmor and more of an uneasy truce ("We've laid down some ground rules. If any of these rules are broken, we'll start killing each other again").

oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.

One idiot captain =/= the Empire. Sure, it's not the Empire's finest hour, but contrary to what you seem to believe, Imperial supporters don't think the Empire is perfect. We tend to think that it's much better for Skyrim than Ulfric.

THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.

Yeahhh, not so much, pal. You're no victim.

btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

It's better than some of your others. You had an actual quote from the game. Still nothing I've never heard before from Stormcloak supporters.

 

[AS88]

ok, while i don't believe that for one second lemme give you one, observe-
1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.
2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!
3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.
4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!
5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???
oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.
THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.
btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

Okay.

1) I think the word you're looking for is "desperation." Also, the Dominion haven't invaded Skyrim yet, they invaded Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. Search "Great War" on uesp.net and look at the information there. That way, you can't claim bias from any of us.
2) The Empire's force is made up of many separate Legions, but I see what you're getting at. Look at Alvor's in-game dialogue. There was no real enforcement of the Talos ban until Ulfric started basing his cause around it. DM has provided this evidence for you time and time again yet you refuse to acknowledge it.
3) If you're not a Nord, and you wish to join the Stormcloaks, Galmar asks you straight up "why's an Elf want to fight for Skyrim," although yes, you are allowed in. The Dunmer at the gate you mentioned answers Rolff by saying that the Dunmer don't get involved because it's not their fight. If you moved to France because your home country was destroyed by natural disasters, and were then treated poorly by the French, would you want to fight in their army? I would think not.
4) What is standing between the Thalmor and Skyrim (ie Skyrim's certain destruction and Skyrim)? The Empire. They are lined up on the border with the Dominion, ready for the war to break out again. The Nord way of life, except for Talos, is being allowed to continue almost solely by the virtue of the Imperials protecting Skyrim from a) itself (ie Ulfric's tyranny) and b) all-out Thalmor invasion. This is something that you seem completely unable to understand, and the only thing I can put it down to is you being too pig-headed to actually go and read any information, listen to the Empire, or read any lore.
5) The Empire and the Thalmor aren't allies. Surprisingly enough, allies don't go to war. When GWII happens with the Empire on the offensive against the Thalmor, will you still call them allies to the Dominion?

I can't wait for Elder Scrolls VI to come out, so you can actually be spoon-fed why you're so wrong. And to answer your point about a well-presented argument, here's a few points I can make off the top of my head.
a) No factual evidence used as a reference to back up your points
b) Basing your argument solely around opinions, not taking others' viewpoints into consideration
c) A lack of understanding on the topic (with regards to the Great War and what's happened since)

 

[Daelon DuLac]

there! i deleted the post! now stop being nice, you're freaking me out..

and for the record- i'm not the one getting worked up over a videogame, that would be drunko..

I dunno, Drunko's being his usual self. He hasn't called anyone "evil" or "Hannibal Lector," though, so that's a plus.

i'm the one getting gang hated for simply having a different opinion.

You're being targeted because you're throwing fits instead of backing up your opinion with cited in-game facts, not because your opinion's different. I welcome a well-presented Stormcloak argument, I've just unfortunately never seen one.

ok, while i don't believe that for one second lemme give you one, observe-
1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.
2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!
3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.
4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!
5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???
oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.
THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.
btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

Nobody hates you Happy (or at least I don't!). Just a few comments though, and please understand that I don't really think that the Stormies are truly racist, just paranoid and xenophobic (with good cause):
1) There are deeper causes than the Thalmor, of course, both economic and due to the independent nature of many Nords, but, yes, the Thalmor, to me are a strong cause to fight against.
2) I wouldn't say that the Imperials "support" the Thalmor, they just don't interfere in their activities as it would violate the treaty and possibly lead to a resumption of the war. Admittedly, they do not actively work against the Thalmor, but I've yet to get more than a 40 septim bounty in any hold for slaughtering every Thalmor I find, even if I'm right next to a bunch of guards (i.e. Whiterun by the Western Watch Tower), so I don't think they really have a problem with interferring with the Thalmor in general.
3) I don't really agree with that. I think that particular guy is just a real a**hole. There is a historical bias in Windhelm against both the Dunmer and the Argonians, but, that, to me is just a bi-product of the standard Nord xenophobia in general. I agree, that, if they offered, Ulfrich and the Stormcloaks would probably put them to work, but, as the Dunmer point out, it's really not their fight. They don't care one way or another. I suppose that has more to do with their own futile history in resisting the Aldmeri Dominion and the many tragedies that both races have suffered in the last century w/out either the Nords or the Adlmeri being involved.
4) I would hope the Stormies are at war with the empire for a better reason than that. Just because you support the Thalmor doesn't mean that you should go to war with them. Me, I believe that it has to do with religious freedom, independent and patriotic feelings and economics. We can't forget that the empire and Skryim have been intertwined for centuries. Many of the most famous Emperors have even been from Skryim (Tiber Septim, etc...)
5) Meh. See my answer to 2). I do agree that the whole beginning really doesn't speek too well of the Imperials. My current Nord is certainly resentful of not even being given the chance to defend himself when he wasn't even with Ulfich. On the other hand, you could say that it was Ulfrich and the Stormies that cause you to be in the situation in the first place so you could be mad at them. After all, as the horse thief said - the Empire was nice and lazy before the uprising started and you could get away with just about anything (Skyrim is a backwater after all).

Just my thoughts, but no Happy, we don't hate you, we just like to argue!

 

[XIIGenocide]

Happyfaceclown, I understand you getting worked up about this matter, but come on man, theres no reason to get personal like you did with mage, I was just trying to spark some friendly debate that would hopefully swing my opinion in favor of one side, I didn't want people to be getting called names and such.

Hopefully though another Stormcloak supporter can salvage this debate.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

The Aldmer allegedly left the doomed plains of Aldmeris and settled in Tamriel. Not everyone agrees with the Aldmeri view of their own history, however. Many scholars – such as the Moth Priests (readers of the Elder Scrolls) - reject the idea that Aldmeris was a physical location at all; instead, it is often claimed that Aldmeris is merely an idea, a concept of a unified Mer race from the early Merethic Era.

Gradually, the Aldmer – in their advanced state – drove the ‘beastfolk’ of Tamriel into the mountains, jungles, marshes and wastelands. They asserted their delusion of racial superiority and supremacy from the very beginning.

Lest we forget the coming of the Atmorans (ancestors of the earliest Nords) who began to settle in Tamriel at the most northerly points of the land. They were quickly driven back by the Elven races of Tamriel during various campaigns culminating in the massacre at Saarthal in what would forever be known as the “Night of Tears.” All but Ysgramor and his two sons, Yngol and Ylgar, perished in the slaughter. They returned to Atmora and years later brought the Five Hundred to rain vengeance down on the Snow Elves, driving them back and claiming land that is today known as Skyrim.

The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?

The High Elves (more especially the deluded Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion) are the biggest threat to Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole.

Whilst Ulfric charges around like a bull who has been kicked in the nuts, little does he realise that he is an unwitting pawn playing straight into the hands of the High Elves by further destabilising a creaking Empire.

'A divided house' and all that jazz...

 

[XIIGenocide]

The Aldmer allegedly left the doomed plains of Aldmeris and settled in Tamriel. Not everyone agrees with the Aldmeri view of their own history, however. Many scholars – such as the Moth Priests (readers of the Elder Scrolls) - reject the idea that Aldmeris was a physical location at all; instead, it is often claimed that Aldmeris is merely an idea, a concept of a unified Mer race from the early Merethic Era.

Gradually, the Aldmer – in their advanced state – drove the ‘beastfolk’ of Tamriel into the mountains, jungles, marshes and wastelands. They asserted their delusion of racial superiority and supremacy from the very beginning.

Lest we forget the coming of the Atmorans (ancestors of the earliest Nords) who began to settle in Tamriel at the most northerly points of the land. They were quickly driven back by the Elven races of Tamriel during various campaigns culminating in the massacre at Saarthal in what would forever be known as the “Night of Tears.” All but Ysgramor and his two sons, Yngol and Ylgar, perished in the slaughter. They returned to Atmora and years later brought the Five Hundred to rain vengeance down on the Snow Elves, driving them back and claiming land that is today known as Skyrim.

The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?

The High Elves (more especially the deluded Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion) are the biggest threat to Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole.

Whilst Ulfric charges around like a bull who has been kicked in the nuts, little does he realise that he is an unwitting pawn playing straight into the hands of the High Elves by further destabilising a creaking Empire.

'A divided house' and all that jazz...

If it isn't the man himself Thanks again for making my Sig man, and for your input.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

The Aldmer allegedly left the doomed plains of Aldmeris and settled in Tamriel. Not everyone agrees with the Aldmeri view of their own history, however. Many scholars – such as the Moth Priests (readers of the Elder Scrolls) - reject the idea that Aldmeris was a physical location at all; instead, it is often claimed that Aldmeris is merely an idea, a concept of a unified Mer race from the early Merethic Era.

Gradually, the Aldmer – in their advanced state – drove the ‘beastfolk’ of Tamriel into the mountains, jungles, marshes and wastelands. They asserted their delusion of racial superiority and supremacy from the very beginning.

Lest we forget the coming of the Atmorans (ancestors of the earliest Nords) who began to settle in Tamriel at the most northerly points of the land. They were quickly driven back by the Elven races of Tamriel during various campaigns culminating in the massacre at Saarthal in what would forever be known as the “Night of Tears.” All but Ysgramor and his two sons, Yngol and Ylgar, perished in the slaughter. They returned to Atmora and years later brought the Five Hundred to rain vengeance down on the Snow Elves, driving them back and claiming land that is today known as Skyrim.

The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?

The High Elves (more especially the deluded Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion) are the biggest threat to Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole.

Whilst Ulfric charges around like a bull who has been kicked in the nuts, little does he realise that he is an unwitting pawn playing straight into the hands of the High Elves by further destabilising a creaking Empire.

'A divided house' and all that jazz...

Very informative! Thank you.

Query though: nothing that I read supports your statement:
"The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?"
Why is there a legitimacy to the Nords claim on the land? It was populated by other peoples before they got there after all. That's like saying that white Europeans were justified in their claim to North American lands because they committed genocide of the native populations (okay, maybe not the best example as the natives never slaughtered the original settlers (maybe Jamestown?), but my point still stands).

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Query though: nothing that I read supports your statement:
"The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?"
Why is there a legitimacy to the Nords claim on the land? It was populated by other peoples before they got there after all. That's like saying that white Europeans were justified in their claim to North American lands because they committed genocide of the native populations (okay, maybe not the best example as the natives never slaughtered the original settlers (maybe Jamestown?), but my point still stands).

Although the Aldmer and other Mer races arrived earlier than the Atmorans (the earliest Nords) all of the peoples within Tamriel had to travel there and settle.

Seemingly, only the 'beastfolk' Argonians and Khajiits were the aboriginal inhabitants and they were driven into shadow by the Mer.

If the Mer were playing a game of settlement by conquer, then they were legitimately played at their own game when the Atmorans returned after the massacre and reclaimed land in which they had settled - land that had not been settled by ANY OTHER race when they arrived.

That land was free to claim, as much as the other areas of Tamriel in which races settled. When the Mer grew jealous of the Atmoran prosperity, they saw their utopian dream of a Mer paradise being threatened and so drove them out. The hypocrisy of "you can't settle here and grow, but we can" is quite blatant.

The Mer that were driven back by the returning Atmorans deserved all they got and lost huge swathes of their land - something they could have kept if they had coexisted...

The Atmorans gradually settled and became embedded in the northern regions until their descendants became the Nords.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

ok, while i don't believe that for one second

That hit me right in the feels, Happy.

1. yall say the stormcloaks are these horrible bigots who hate everybody and only want nord surpremacy-
fact- the stormcloak rebellion was formed out of desperativity to fight back the invading thalmor who have flat out admitted that their over all goal is to wipe out all nords from the earth and enslave everyone else. sound familiar? that might be because the german nazis wanted to do this to all jews back in ww2 in REAL LIFE.

Thalmor racism neither negates nor justifies Stormcloak racism. Plus, the Thalmor are out for all non-Mer races, not just the Nords.

2. this imperial legion all you guys worship are the ultimate ally to these nazis *cough* sorry "Thalmor"
you mine as well call them "nazi sympathizers" cause to support a group that is trying to quite literally wipe out every last race of people other than themselves is not only wrong, its disturbing. THESE are your precious imperials!

Alliance and truce are two entirely different things. The Empire's in no position to fight the Thalmor, no matter how much they'd love to. Sure, fighting to the bitter end sounds noble, but it just leaves everyone dead.

3. Ulfric and the stormcloaks are racist..
fact- listen to some of the dialog in windhelm, you'll notice the conversation with the dark elf and the nord says to her "you pollute our city with your filth and you refuse to help the stormcloaks"
this proves 2 things- 1. that they DO in fact allow ANY race into their ranks, thats proven when he says "refuse to help" they would gladly take her in but she hasn't chosen a side.. and 2. that they're not hating races just for not being nord, they're detesting these people cause they REFUSE to help the stormcloaks! has NOTHING to do with race.

That's not my argument about why the Stormcloaks are racist. My argument is the Dark Elves being given crappy housing and the Argonians not being allowed in the city. The only signs of changing this come along when the Empire wins the war and Brunwulf becomes jarl.

4. the stormcloaks are only at war with the empire cause they support the thalmor, how can they fight an enemy when they can't even get to them cause their main ally is all up in their grill? answer? they can't! they MUST eliminate the empire before they can engage the thalmor, the empire WILL NOT join them! they've made that perfectly clear!

The Empire won't join them because they're not in a position to fight the Thalmor. They'd be in a position to fight them much sooner if Ulfric weren't stirring things up. Heck, the Thalmor weren't even bothering Skyrim and the Empire could ignore the Talos ban until Ulfric decided to up and murder the king.
And if Ulfric is having so much trouble with just a small portion of the Imperial army, how does he expect to fight the Thalmor?

5. and i just wanna repeat this because.. you're precious imperial legion is allied to a group of bigoted elves who wish to more less take over the world! now explain to me how that doesn't make THEM just as evil???

I just wanna repeat that the Empire has less of an alliance ("We're all friends with a common goal! ") with the Thalmor and more of an uneasy truce ("We've laid down some ground rules. If any of these rules are broken, we'll start killing each other again").

oh and not that it matters but, you remember the opening cutscene? yea that was the EMPIRE trying to cut your head off.

One idiot captain =/= the Empire. Sure, it's not the Empire's finest hour, but contrary to what you seem to believe, Imperial supporters don't think the Empire is perfect. We tend to think that it's much better for Skyrim than Ulfric.

THIS is why i'm hated, i more less prove drunko and his made up theories WRONG, and it hurts his feelings and all his buddies.

Yeahhh, not so much, pal. You're no victim.

btw never seen a well-presented stormcloak argument? and don't try and tell me "that isn't a well presented argument" cause we both know that would just be an excuse..

It's better than some of your others. You had an actual quote from the game. Still nothing I've never heard before from Stormcloak supporters.

and this is why i try to never bother with these debates.. cause you guys never and i mean NEVER run out of excuses.. the whole entire thing can actually be summed up in one simple phrase- the imperial legion wishes to aid an army that can be compared to REAL LIFE nazis! sorry but there is NO excuse for that, stevie wonder could see these guys are evil any way you slice it.
sugar coat it all you like m8, but at the end of the day the imperial legion are still cowards who choose to serve rather than fight.. as vignar said "we should be fighting these witch elves! not bending knee to them!" the reason i get so upset about this is cause sure.. its just a game but ffs man you guys are making heroes out of an army that according to its OWN STORY supports racist tyrants!! mine as well say japan was honorable for siding with the nazis during ww2, that is a seriously screwed up view point and it baffles me how you guys can think this way!

 

[Janus3003]

and this is why i try to never bother with these debates.. cause you guys never and i mean NEVER run out of excuses..

Right back at ya.

the whole entire thing can actually be summed up in one simple phrase- the imperial legion wishes to aid an army that can be compared to REAL LIFE nazis! sorry but there is NO excuse for that, stevie wonder could see these guys are evil any way you slice it.
sugar coat it all you like m8, but at the end of the day the imperial legion are still cowards who choose to serve rather than fight.. as vignar said "we should be fighting these witch elves! not bending knee to them!" the reason i get so upset about this is cause sure.. its just a game but ffs man you guys are making heroes out of an army that according to its OWN STORY supports racist tyrants!! mine as well say japan was honorable for siding with the nazis during ww2, that is a seriously screwed up view point and it baffles me how you guys can think this way!

I notice you like to ignore the whole "it's a truce, not an alliance" thing. Sometimes dealing with the terms of a surrender or truce is a better option than fighting until every person is dead.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I notice you like to ignore the whole "it's a truce, not an alliance" thing. Sometimes dealing with the terms of a surrender or truce is a better option than fighting until every person is dead.

"The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war."

Desiderius Erasmus

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Query though: nothing that I read supports your statement:
"The legitimacy of the Nords to claim that land is quite right and proper. Their burgeoning racial supremacist overtones are not. Otherwise are they not guilty of hypocrisy?"
Why is there a legitimacy to the Nords claim on the land? It was populated by other peoples before they got there after all. That's like saying that white Europeans were justified in their claim to North American lands because they committed genocide of the native populations (okay, maybe not the best example as the natives never slaughtered the original settlers (maybe Jamestown?), but my point still stands).

Although the Aldmer and other Mer races arrived earlier than the Atmorans (the earliest Nords) all of the peoples within Tamriel had to travel there and settle.

Seemingly, only the 'beastfolk' Argonians and Khajiits were the aboriginal inhabitants and they were driven into shadow by the Mer.

If the Mer were playing a game of settlement by conquer, then they were legitimately played at their own game when the Atmorans returned after the massacre and reclaimed land in which they had settled - land that had not been settled by ANY OTHER race when they arrived.

That land was free to claim, as much as the other areas of Tamriel in which races settled. When the Mer grew jealous of the Atmoran prosperity, they saw their utopian dream of a Mer paradise being threatened and so drove them out. The hypocrisy of "you can't settle here and grow, but we can" is quite blatant.

The Mer that were driven back by the returning Atmorans deserved all they got and lost huge swathes of their land - something they could have kept if they had coexisted...

The Atmorans gradually settled and became embedded in the northern regions until their descendants became the Nords.

While I agree that retaliation was certainly a very human response, somehow I don't think genocide was necessarily the answer (although, I know darn well the Snow Elves would have done the same to the humans). I would hope that people were better than that. Of course, in the long run doesn't the change from Snow Elf to monster seem like a fitting punishment?

 

[XIIGenocide]

Where the Stormcloaks at?!

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Of course, in the long run doesn't the change from Snow Elf to monster seem like a fitting punishment?

And that, of course, was the work of the Dwemer...

A race I am entirely obsessed with and intrigued by!

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Where the Stormcloaks at?![/quote/]Hanging out and Candlehearth ignoring the empire for the time being and enjoying themselves immensely.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

and this is why i try to never bother with these debates.. cause you guys never and i mean NEVER run out of excuses..

Right back at ya.

the whole entire thing can actually be summed up in one simple phrase- the imperial legion wishes to aid an army that can be compared to REAL LIFE nazis! sorry but there is NO excuse for that, stevie wonder could see these guys are evil any way you slice it.
sugar coat it all you like m8, but at the end of the day the imperial legion are still cowards who choose to serve rather than fight.. as vignar said "we should be fighting these witch elves! not bending knee to them!" the reason i get so upset about this is cause sure.. its just a game but ffs man you guys are making heroes out of an army that according to its OWN STORY supports racist tyrants!! mine as well say japan was honorable for siding with the nazis during ww2, that is a seriously screwed up view point and it baffles me how you guys can think this way!

I notice you like to ignore the whole "it's a truce, not an alliance" thing. Sometimes dealing with the terms of a surrender or truce is a better option than fighting until every person is dead.

truce.. alliance.. call it what you will.. the bottom line is these imperials you guys glorify are helping an army of tyrannical monsters lay waste to their own people and there is no justification in that what-so-ever no matter how hard you pretend for it to be. you can say "aww but... they just can't fight the thalmor yet" NO! thats just an excuse for their cowardice, Ulfric has the right idea! ever study old samurai culture? by their view points the imperial legion would be classified as the lowest form of coward there is.

 

[XIIGenocide]

and this is why i try to never bother with these debates.. cause you guys never and i mean NEVER run out of excuses..

Right back at ya.

the whole entire thing can actually be summed up in one simple phrase- the imperial legion wishes to aid an army that can be compared to REAL LIFE nazis! sorry but there is NO excuse for that, stevie wonder could see these guys are evil any way you slice it.
sugar coat it all you like m8, but at the end of the day the imperial legion are still cowards who choose to serve rather than fight.. as vignar said "we should be fighting these witch elves! not bending knee to them!" the reason i get so upset about this is cause sure.. its just a game but ffs man you guys are making heroes out of an army that according to its OWN STORY supports racist tyrants!! mine as well say japan was honorable for siding with the nazis during ww2, that is a seriously screwed up view point and it baffles me how you guys can think this way!

I notice you like to ignore the whole "it's a truce, not an alliance" thing. Sometimes dealing with the terms of a surrender or truce is a better option than fighting until every person is dead.

truce.. alliance.. call it what you will.. the bottom line is these imperials you guys glorify are helping an army of tyrannical monsters lay waste to their own people and there is no justification in that what-so-ever no matter how hard you pretend for it to be. you can say "aww but... they just can't fight the thalmor yet" NO! thats just an excuse for their cowardice, Ulfric has the right idea! ever study old samurai culture? by their view points the imperial legion would be classified as the lowest form of coward there is.

Right! So lets muster up all of the Imperial Legion and get slaughtered! Why didn't Tullius think of that? And with no Legion the Thalmor are free to stride into Skyrim and do whatever they want to it, including killing all Nords. Your ideas are simply amazing.