The politics of Skyrim (as seen by a newcomer) - please debate!

[Dagmar]

...The Thalmor are almost exactly like the Nazis. They came into power by promising the population of Summerset Isle that they will get them out of the crises that they were in, much like Hitler, and they have done it at the expense of others, much like Hitler. Now that they are out of the crises, they are using their new found power to take as much as they can from everybody else.

The Thalmor bear no more resemblance to the Nazis than any oppressive nation state bent on world domination by military aggression. While they are the most overtly racist faction in Tamriel, they are not genocidal (although they have no qualms about wiping out large groups of any race if they believe that they have the potential to be a source of dissent or sedition including their fellow Altmer). They also didn't rise into power by promising the population of Summerset Isle that they would get them out of the Oblivion Crisis. They simply flat out lied and took credit for its end in Summerset Isle after Martin Septim sealed all the Oblivion Gates in Tamriel. They're still no good for Tamriel as they're still an oppressive totalitarian regime.

 

[Dagmar]

...However I've ran across a few wayshrines of Talos with the worshippers slaughtered with one dead Thalmor left behind. The note on his persons says it all, they are in Skyrim to kill and convert by force...

There's only one Shrine of Talos with bodies of dead worshippers (it's northeast of Pinewatch and Southwest of the Guardian Stones) and saying they were slaughtered is a bit of a mischaracterization of what happened. The dead Thalmor is named Sanyon and the note says nothing about being in Skyrim to kill and convert by force.

Agent Sanyon,

In response to your report dated 22nd Morning Star 401, your request for an expeditionary force is hereby denied.

Sanyon, this is the seventh report you have filed this month, and not one of your leads - not one!- has turned up so much as a shred of evidence that a Talos Shrine exists in the Lake Ilinata region. No prisoners. No documents. Nothing!

Our forces are stretched thin enough as it is, and I have better missions - better agents - to assign them to. If you feel so sure of your informant, investigate this yourself. Come back with proof. Or not at all.

By my hand and seal,
Elenwen

The implication is that Sanyon, given that ultimatum from Elenwen, was forced to investigate on his own without any support, and when he discovered the four Talos worshippers they fought and killed each other (two of the worshippers are armed with maces and another with a dagger).

 

[Dagmar]

I have no doubt that it's happening. I never disputed that. What I am wondering is just how rampant it actually is, compared to how it's sometimes referred to. In my opinion, Bethesda could have made it a lot more evident, far more explicitly common, complete with toppled Talos shrines in each city and not just those in the wilderness.

It's happening but it's not unreasonable to infer that the Thalmor Justiciar's aren't simply after any person violating the White-Gold Concordat, but are looking in particular for Stormcloak sympathizers. It would explain why they aren't interested in Heimskr as he's a bit of a loon and therefore not likely to have any information about the Stormcloaks. Further, every prisoner being escorted by a Thalmor Justiciar patrol is affiliated with the Stormcloaks as they all have Sons Of Skyrim faction.

...I myself have only ever seen a Thalmor-prisoner group on the road twice in all my play-throughs and both times were before I completed the war questline for the Imperials. Go figure.

You can have some of mine!

I've had so many that I've lost count. I honestly don't recall if I had any after completing the Imperial Legion quest line but I definitely have had Thalmor patrol ones afterwards. I've also had Imperial patrols with the same prisoners which reinforces the notion that there's a Stormcloak affiliation factor for people being arrested by the Thalmor.

The random nature of world interactions while traveling in Skyrim and the variety of them can make for a very different experience for each player. For example, I didn't see any Thalmor Patrols at all after completing the Stormcloak quest line, but the game data doesn't support the notion that completing the quest removes that world interaction from the game notwithstanding that it makes sense (which is why my proposal to add a note about it on the UESP World Interactions page got shot down by the admins ). One of the admins pointed out that in all the hours he's played the game, he's never gotten a dragon encounter inside a capital city nothwithstanding the fact that they definitely can occur.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I'm not aware of anything in the games that supports the notion that Thalmor are in pursuit of Godhood. The only source I'm aware of that supports such a notion are the outside writings of Michael Kirkbride which, while interesting, are not canon

I may have misinterpreted this a little when doing some initial lore research...I'm very, VERY new to all of this!

"The Altmer cast Lorkhan as a treacherous, shifty character who tricked the other Aedra into carrying out his plan for creation. As the elves believe themselves to be direct descendants from Auri-El, they blame Lorkhan for the loss of their divinity. This is the key difference between human and mer theology: humans consider themselves creations of the gods, not descendants of the gods."

In my mind, they are then pursuing this status, or at least bitterly aware of their loss and vengefully motivated by this Demi-God desire?

In hindsight, that is an assumption I have made with the inference of lore...I'm still learning!

 

[Moris]

Further, every prisoner being escorted by a Thalmor Justiciar patrol is affiliated with the Stormcloaks as they all have Sons Of Skyrim faction.

This is a very astute observation. The same must be true of those prisoners being escorted by Imperials. It makes the almost-execution of the dragonborn in the opening sequences a very one-off and extremely unlikely event, as the imperials otherwise appear very thorough in their investigations.

 

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

WOW! So much politics I might just slot myself and watch the show *gets popcorn* okay so when does the fun begin?

Now my lore is limited and I hope to learn from this thread! So at the moment it's about imperials and stormcloakes and thalmor? (There's a surprise)

 

[Docta Corvina]

It's happening but it's not unreasonable to infer that the Thalmor Justiciar's aren't simply after any person violating the White-Gold Concordat, but are looking in particular for Stormcloak sympathizers. It would explain why they aren't interested in Heimskr as he's a bit of a loon and therefore not likely to have any information about the Stormcloaks. Further, every prisoner being escorted by a Thalmor Justiciar patrol is affiliated with the Stormcloaks as they all have Sons Of Skyrim faction.

This is a very good point! Admittedly I've been at something of an observational disadvantage because of my lack of exposure to the Thalmor/prisoner convoys on the roads in my game. Essentially all I have been able to go off of is NPC chatter, the survival and ever-irritating presence of Heimskr, and the exceedingly rare occurrences that I had seen the convoys. I still myself haven't even stumbled upon any bloody country shrines, though that may have everything to do with my lack of exploring every nook and cranny of the land and overlooking of any such latent quests that would bring me to them - as well as the game's randomizer. Which is a great segue:

You can have some of mine!

I've had so many that I've lost count. I honestly don't recall if I had any after completing the Imperial Legion quest line but I definitely have had Thalmor patrol ones afterwards. I've also had Imperial patrols with the same prisoners which reinforces the notion that there's a Stormcloak affiliation factor for people being arrested by the Thalmor.

The random nature of world interactions while traveling in Skyrim and the variety of them can make for a very different experience for each player. For example, I didn't see any Thalmor Patrols at all after completing the Stormcloak quest line, but the game data doesn't support the notion that completing the quest removes that world interaction from the game notwithstanding that it makes sense (which is why my proposal to add a note about it on the UESP World Interactions page got shot down by the admins ). One of the admins pointed out that in all the hours he's played the game, he's never gotten a dragon encounter inside a capital city nothwithstanding the fact that they definitely can occur.

Aww, hehe! I'll take them and put them to good use. *evil*

Yeah, it's interesting to me how much the random encounter factor plays into everyone's game experience. I have a friend who has long since completed the Stormcloaks questline and he says he certainly still has run into Thalmor with prisoners on the road, as well as the usual wandering patrol groups. And then as I said earlier, I've completed the Imperial questline a great many times now and I'd never had such encounters afterward. Though, that doesn't say much since I'd hardly seen them at all since the beginning and I've been running about five or six different characters since launch.

...Maybe they know I got friendly with Ondolemar and they're leaving me alone in all my files as a result. Ondy...the only "Thalmoric type" I could ever grow to appreciate. He's just not like the rest of them, I swear it! He's different! He's...special!

 

[Docta Corvina]

This is a very astute observation. The same must be true of those prisoners being escorted by Imperials. It makes the almost-execution of the dragonborn in the opening sequences a very one-off and extremely unlikely event, as the imperials otherwise appear very thorough in their investigations.

Which in turn supports even more the notion that the careless captain is the most immediate one people should be pointing their angry fingers at and not the entirety of the Legion. All things considered, the Imperials are indeed thorough as you were not on their "list" and the only reason why you were sent to the block after Hadvar tries to intervene by wielding Logic is the insistent dismissal of the captain - one who seems like she never had any business being in such an authoritative position anyway, by the look of it.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I also just want to make a general comment on the maturity and thoughtfulness of this thread. It's amazing how we can debate largely the same things as another thread (The Thread, as it's known) and everyone's been pretty chill and welcoming and eager to expand knowledge. Whereas in The Thread, it can get remarkably...well, animated. For lack of a better term. Not to say that straight up poo-slinging is rampant, but this thread by contrast just feels so much more relaxed. I think it has a lot to do with its creator being so engaged and complimenting of all of those taking part. It's a rarity and awesome to see!

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I also just want to make a general comment on the maturity and thoughtfulness of this thread. It's amazing how we can debate largely the same things as another thread (The Thread, as it's known) and everyone's been pretty chill and welcoming and eager to expand knowledge. Whereas in The Thread, it can get remarkably...well, animated. For lack of a better term. Not to say that straight up poo-slinging is rampant, but this thread by contrast just feels so much more relaxed. I think it has a lot to do with its creator being so engaged and complimenting of all of those taking part. It's a rarity and awesome to see!

It is genuinely a joy and a privilege to have found a forum like this full of cerebral, engaging and obviously friendly people. To share in my passion for fantasy gaming, history, politics and writing - all in the same place - is fantastically inspiring and fulfilling.

The knowledge that people possess here as well...it's a little humbling at times! I am very new to this lore and this game world but I have developed a real fervour and passion for it. I can only hope to learn from you people and I can only do the by being reflective and open to your iinput. I'm always ready to admit when others know far more than I do and always bow to that knowledge - it is, after all, the only way one can learn.

I'm enjoying myself here tremendously and just hope that my contributions are well taken and enjoyed too!

 

[Prometheus100c]

The virginity is stronk in here

 

[Moris]

...Maybe they know I got friendly with Ondolemar and they're leaving me alone in all my files as a result. Ondy...the only "Thalmoric type" I could ever grow to appreciate. He's just not like the rest of them, I swear it! He's different! He's...special!

What's special about Ondolemar? The first time I met him, he tried to get me to sneak into Ogmund's house to find his amulet of Talos so that he could drag him off and arrest him.

Interestingly enough, I started going through the Halls of the Dead in each city just to see who is interred in there. Ondolemar has a coffin, complete with Thalmor robes, in my Markarth. I just wonder how he met his end? The Imps control it, after all.

ETA: Ah, just looked it up. I remember now. I did give Markarth to the SC's during Season Unending.

 

[Docta Corvina]

What's special about Ondolemar? The first time I met him, he tried to get me to sneak into Ogmund's house to find his amulet of Talos so that he could drag him off and arrest him.

Interestingly enough, I started going through the Halls of the Dead in each city just to see who is interred in there. Ondolemar has a coffin, complete with Thalmor robes, in my Markarth. I just wonder how he met his end? The Imps control it, after all.

Haha, well, the superficial answer is that he's pretty. Probably the prettiest Altmer in the game. And he's got a je-ne-sais-quoi charm to him, honestly. But the more serious answer is that I've always felt like there's more going on below the surface with him. After all, if his disposition toward you is raised (whether by doing the Ogmund quest or by console-commanding it), and if your "persuasion" is high enough, he will create a diversion for you at the Thalmor Embassy during "Diplomatic Immunity". I think that's very interesting, myself, and it calls into question just how hardcore he is given that he helps someone infiltrate his agency's Embassy. In a story I've been writing, I'm planning to delve into that aspect a lot more and suggest some motivations and consequences for his actions in that regard.

As for him dying in Markarth, I've heard he dies if the Stormcloaks gain control of the Hold - which would make more sense. I'm not aware of him dying with it under Imperial control. He's very much alive in my game. It's interesting though, to speculate. I had been under the impression from others that the other Thalmor officers remain in Understone Keep even if the Stormcloaks take control, it's just that Ondolemar himself dies and disappears. It's curious.

 

[Moris]

I also just want to make a general comment on the maturity and thoughtfulness of this thread. It's amazing how we can debate largely the same things as another thread (The Thread, as it's known) and everyone's been pretty chill and welcoming and eager to expand knowledge. Whereas in The Thread, it can get remarkably...well, animated. For lack of a better term. Not to say that straight up poo-slinging is rampant, but this thread by contrast just feels so much more relaxed. I think it has a lot to do with its creator being so engaged and complimenting of all of those taking part. It's a rarity and awesome to see!

Yes, the name calling in the other thread is quite distracting at times. But there's so much gold in there, I want to keep reading. (I hope some of it re-appears here. Even if people feel as though they are re-hashing old posts, it would be nice to read it in a "room" with more comfortable seating.)

I think that if you've devolved to name calling (even out of pure frustration and in response to the same), it's time to pack up and go. After all, if you're arguing with someone, and you can't see the truth in anything they say, there's absolutely no point continuing with them.

I don't agree with everything everyone has said here, but so what? It'd be damned boring if all we did was slap each other on the back!

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I disagree...lol

 

[Moris]

I disagree...lol

Liar!

ETA:

 

[Chowder138]

The virginity is stronk in here

Well, I'm 14. So obviously I'm still going to be a virgin anyway, but...

Seriously? We can't discuss and debate lore without being called "virgins?" You must lead a very boring life if you only focus on what's real and ignore what is not. I don't envy you in the slightest.

One more thing: It may be the Christian in me, but Virginity is highly valued in my book. Anyone that stays abstinent until marriage deserves infinite respect.

 

[Irish]

I must say, you all have inspired me with your knowledge to explore more of the lore behind TES as it sounds quite intriguing. Admittedly, when I purchased Skyrim, I knew nothing about the previous games or what it was about other than it looked cool as hell on the adverts. Not only will being somewhat educated on the lore make my gaming experience better, but I'll be able to add something of value to these kinds of threads instead of hiding in the shadows and sticking to the more, well, inane ones (not that they're not fun to indulge - they are - but I'd like to become a more well-rounded member of this forum). I assume I begin with Morrowind, so will be downloading it as soon as I find the bottom of my coffee cup. Thanks, all!

 

[Dagmar]

I may have misinterpreted this a little when doing some initial lore research...I'm very, VERY new to all of this!

"The Altmer cast Lorkhan as a treacherous, shifty character who tricked the other Aedra into carrying out his plan for creation. As the elves believe themselves to be direct descendants from Auri-El, they blame Lorkhan for the loss of their divinity. This is the key difference between human and mer theology: humans consider themselves creations of the gods, not descendants of the gods."

While there's nothing particularly inaccurate about the article you're quoting from, you're quoting from a site that has a mediocre reputation in terms of accurate information about the Elder Scrolls game in general and the lore of the game in particular. That particular article illustrates one of the problems with the site's lore articles which is the complete absence of citation to actual sources from game content or Bethesda publications.

The nature of wiki sites is such that they're open to editing by anyone and the quality and accuracy of the information is only as good as the diligence and objectivity of the admins who maintain the site and it simply isn't that good on that site. By way of example the site still has an article on the "Fourth Legion" in Skyrim even though there is no basis to claim the Imperial Legion in Skyrim is the Fourth Legion. It was brought to the attention of the admins almost two months ago with no follow up on their part. By contrast, at the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages, when the only incorrect reference to the "Fourth Legion" in Skyrim was pointed out to the admins it was removed the very same day.

I reference the Imperial Library and the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages when I want to find lore information quickly but I only take it as accurate if the sources are cited and, with regards to Skyrim, can be confirmed by going into the game to check the sources. Ideally I would also confirm the game content cited to Oblivion, Morrowind and Daggerfall and the two canon novels The Infernal City and Lord of Souls but I'm still playing Oblivion and I don't even have the other sources so I can only rely on the lore articles with citation to back them up (although sometimes I can find actual video from the games that shows the cited content).

The source for the creation myths of Tamriel are primarily captured in two documents, The Monomyth and The Annuad Paraphrased, both of which can be found in the living area of the Greybeards in High Hrothgar. The Monomyth is the uncited source for the article you read, and the creation myths of man and mer within it are Shezzar's Song and The Heart of the World.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Thank you! I find this info very useful and will consult those sites ASAP!