Soul Cairn proves that Enchanting is Evil

[paradoxnrt]

In the Soul Cairn, we find both Black and White souls. Serena says that she 'thinks only black souls go there'.....but Arvak' soul is there and we see Cattle souls there. Also, when you activate a soul fissure (and don't have black soul gems in your inventory), the fissure will fill a regular soul gem = white souls!

So, clearly ALL souls used in soul gems go to the Soul Cairn. These souls obviously suffer horribly (Soul Cairn residents are pretty clear on that). These Souls are also used as food (or possibly trade) by the Ideal Masters. We also know for sure that the Ideal Masters use Souls as power sources (the barrier spell).

So using Enchanting and Soul Trapping results in parts of the divine (souls) being forever trapped in a form of hell. So not only is Enchanting and Soul Trapping the worst thing you can do to a life form, it is also the worse thing you can do to the Divines.

Any idea why the peoples of Nirn are so cool with Enchanting?

 

[Ozan]

Because it makes your weapons hit harder?

In all the games I play, when playing as Dark Brotherhood or killing specific people, I make sure I have a black soul gem on me... Then I soultrap and kill them. But I don't ever use the gem. No, I save it. I save it and I make sure they spend eternity trapped... lost... alone.

I don't kill my enemies. I damn them.))

 

[LotusEater]

I agree. I've always felt the same way. No matter how you slice it, if you trap a soul for your own use, whether it's for enchanting or charging, it has to be evil in my opinion. I've actually had builds where I've never used or filled a soul gem based on that concept. Luckily most of my builds are narcissistic a-holes that have no problem toying with other peoples souls.

As to why the people of Nirn are so accepting:

"Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that half of them are stupider than that"
- George Carlin

 

[SauronTheDeceiver]

You could always just trap monsters or evil people.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

You could always just trap monsters or evil people.

While that may be true, who determines what/who are monsters and/or evil?

Is a bear a monster or evil? I'm sure that 7th level mage that is suddenly killed by 2 of them in the Rift thinks so, even if it is only doing what it does without an evil intent.

Is the Drauger you're fighting a monster and/or evil, or is he/she simply a corpse reanimated for guard duty and only doing their job and without evil intent?

Are you a monster &/or evil for running in to a hideout, killing everyone there and taking all the stuff out of their chest(s) that they filled through the hard work of banditing, stripping them of all their possessions and looting everything available that's not nailed down? If I was a bandit I certainly would think so?

Are the Vigilants of Stendarr monsters or evil for running around arbitrarily killing beings that are only trying to live their own lives/deaths (i.e. werewolfs, vampires, etc...) and criticizing everything Daedric, monsters? Their victims certainly think so, and from their answers when you talk to them, their attitudes are certainly monstrous.

Just a few examples of how the term "monster" and "evil" really are rather arbitrary.

I personally don't find enchanting evil, although I agree that it is one of the most selfish acts one can commit. Even if you did not do your own enchanting, you would still be committing an act of treachery against another beings soul/spirit by even using something enchanted as, it would not have gotten that way unless a soul/spirit had been imbued in to the item. On the other hand, the spirit does continue on in the enchanted form indefinately so you could look at it as rendering a being's soul/spirit immortal by using enchanting.

It just gets murkier and murkier for me on this subject so I'll just keep killing things and collecting souls and enchanting stuff so that I can kill more things and collect their souls. Ah... the Circle of Life (Death?).

My guess is that most call acts that do damage to others without cause (or simply for the joy of it) evil. It would also depend on just what level of regard you hold the lives of other beings. To me, most things are trying to survive and propogate their group. Therefore, evil really doesn't come in to the picture. A monstrous act cannot make the definition for something being a Monster. If that was true, then Ulfrich is a monster for what he did the the High King. There was no need to shout him to death when running a sword through him would have been just as effective. It was an act of "Look at me and how powerful I am". Does that make him evil or a monster?

 

[LotusEater]

I feel highly evil every time I snag a soul from a mammoth. In fact, I rarely do, I depend on black soul gems almost exclusively unless I have a means to fill another way, like soul fissures or the occasional looted filled Grand. I just don't have the heart to kill a mammoth, especially after they've helped me take down a dragon or a rogue mudcrab. Giant's kinda fall into this category but sometimes they swat for no reason so they are usually fair game. Especially if one is hanging around my animal pen.

 

[Ozan]

I feel highly evil every time I snag a soul from a mammoth. In fact, I rarely do, I depend on black soul gems almost exclusively unless I have a means to fill another way, like soul fissures or the occasional looted filled Grand. I just don't have the heart to kill a mammoth, especially after they've helped me take down a dragon or a rogue mudcrab. Giant's kinda fall into this category but sometimes they swat for no reason so they are usually fair game. Especially if one is hanging around my animal pen.

You're lack of evil disturbs me...))

 

[LotusEater]

I feel highly evil every time I snag a soul from a mammoth. In fact, I rarely do, I depend on black soul gems almost exclusively unless I have a means to fill another way, like soul fissures or the occasional looted filled Grand. I just don't have the heart to kill a mammoth, especially after they've helped me take down a dragon or a rogue mudcrab. Giant's kinda fall into this category but sometimes they swat for no reason so they are usually fair game. Especially if one is hanging around my animal pen.

You're lack of evil disturbs me...))

Haha... my Dark Elf assassin agrees!

 

[High King of Skyrim]

What's evil is the fact few vendors can afford by banish daedra daggers and it takes me 30 minutes to sell off around 50 daggers! I thought you were supposed to get rewarded as a high end enchanter, not punished

 

[Wildroses]

After going to the Soul Cairn once, I decided using black soul gems was evil and vowed to never use them again, a vow I have kept. I don't even ask Serana to cure herself because I know someone will need to get sent to the Soul Cairn to do so.

I have been wondering if maybe there was a soul cairn for white souls, but put pinned all my hopes on Serana "thinking only black souls go there" because I didn't want to give up enchanting. The opening poster has made an excellent point regarding the proof of white souls going there though.

As for why the people of Nirn are cool with it, it's possible they have no idea what happens to souls after the gem has been used. I mean, I had no idea until I went into the Soul Cairn. That's a way evil takes hold. People are so focused on results they don't consider the means. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'm actually playing a good aligned enchanter right now. If she ever finds the motivation to join the Dawnguard, I think visiting the Soul Cairn will cause her to do a complete 360.

 

[paradoxnrt]

Keep in mind that EVERYTHING (including souls) in Mundus are literally parts of the Aedra. The Aedra sacrificed much of themselves in order to provide the 'materials' needed to create Mundus.

So every time a soul is sent to the Soul Cairn, the Divines (and Mundus) lose a little bit more of themselves....

That souls go to the Soul Cairn seems to be commonly understood by necromancers (as per Serena talking about stories of Necromancers making deals with the Ideal Masters). My point is that this knowledge would be accessible by the people of Mundus.....so why hasn't every Enchanter been put to death?

I mean, Alduin was proclaimed a huge threat because he ate souls. The Soul Cairn has shown us that Enchanting is actually about as big a threat as the 'World Eater'.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If you're dumb enough to attack or try to rob my Wizard. You bet your sweet soul's ass you're heading for Soul Cairn.

 

[AS88]

I think visiting the Soul Cairn will cause her to do a complete 360.

You mean, a 180?

 

[Ozan]

I think visiting the Soul Cairn will cause her to do a complete 360.

You mean, a 180?

If we wanted to do math, we'd play Dungeons and Dragons.))

 

[Dagmar]

Anyone that's killed by my character is dead because they tried to kill her. I fail to see why she should feel bad about sending their soul off to the Soul Cairn. They shouldn't sew what they're not prepared to reap.

Innocent creatures like Deer and Elk are another matter but they're "lesser creatures" and most people in real life are indifferent to the tortures that they indirectly inflict upon millions of similar animals by eating meat (crating, sleep deprivation, breeding that intentionally creates painful weight too great for limb support, crowding, downing, castration without anesthesia, living in their own excrement, breathing toxic air, death by vivisection, death by suffocation and exposure etc.) that make existence in the Soul Cairn look like an island vacation with the only advantage being that it's not eternal. If that doesn't bother most players in real life I don't see why they should have a problem with their fictional character not giving 2 pl***s about what happens to the souls of forest creatures that they kill.

 

[Bulfrek]

Black soul gems can trap animal souls as well as humans. It could be that if an animal is trapped in a black soul gem it goes to the cairn, if its a normal soul gem it goes wherever. If you think, most venders sell the five non black soul gems, only a few sell black. Most of the Soul Cairn inhabitants are human(round about 90%) if you include the hostile ones as humans that have gone mad in there. There would be a lot more animals if all trapped souls end up there. I personally never use black soul gems. Only souls I trap really are Falmer and TBH I couldn't care less where their souls go, if Falmer go to a place 100x worse than the Soul Cairn its too good for them.

 

[Ozan]

Anyone that's killed by my character is dead because they tried to kill her. I fail to see why she should feel bad about sending their soul off to the Soul Cairn. They shouldn't sew what they're not prepared to reap.

Innocent creatures like Deer and Elk are another matter but they're "lesser creatures" and most people in real life are indifferent to the tortures that they indirectly inflict upon millions of similar animals by eating meat (crating, sleep deprivation, breeding that intentionally creates painful weight too great for limb support, crowding, downing, castration without anesthesia, living in their own excrement, breathing toxic air, death by vivisection, death by suffocation and exposure etc.) that make existence in the Soul Cairn look like an island vacation with the only advantage being that it's not eternal. If that doesn't bother most players in real life I don't see why they should have a problem with their fictional character not giving 2 pl***s about what happens to the souls of forest creatures that they kill.

Can you soul trap rabbits? Never tried it myself, but if so you should consider a villain who is trapping the soulds of all the bunnies. Call him Elmir Fudius.))

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Another question that cannot be answered though is how the animals see the Soul Cairn. Of course at first they'll just run around in panic, but their consciousness will sooner or later get used to the new environment. nd if more follow even a socially active animal will be quite content there.

I've never soul-trapped anything so far, nor' did I use any soul gems. The only magic I trust is Destruction and Alteration, and the Soul Cairn pretty much made sure I'd never want to use stuff like that in the future. I just hope that somehow this realm can be destroyed in some epic battle or at least the souls freed. Watching people going mad there or waiting for their deletion/destruction(?) really brought my mood down in that part of the game, especially that soldier with Arvak.
Hm, I wonder if his and his steeds' soul were trapped during the Oblivion Crisis, or the Great War...

 

[Daedra'Mc'Bitch]

If soul trapping a giant frostbite spider is evil, I don't wanna be good.

I don't think it cares, anyway..

 

[Osiris]

You could always just trap monsters or evil people.

While that may be true, who determines what/who are monsters and/or evil?

Is a bear a monster or evil? I'm sure that 7th level mage that is suddenly killed by 2 of them in the Rift thinks so, even if it is only doing what it does without an evil intent.

Is the Drauger you're fighting a monster and/or evil, or is he/she simply a corpse reanimated for guard duty and only doing their job and without evil intent?

Are you a monster &/or evil for running in to a hideout, killing everyone there and taking all the stuff out of their chest(s) that they filled through the hard work of banditing, stripping them of all their possessions and looting everything available that's not nailed down? If I was a bandit I certainly would think so?

Are the Vigilants of Stendarr monsters or evil for running around arbitrarily killing beings that are only trying to live their own lives/deaths (i.e. werewolfs, vampires, etc...) and criticizing everything Daedric, monsters? Their victims certainly think so, and from their answers when you talk to them, their attitudes are certainly monstrous.

Just a few examples of how the term "monster" and "evil" really are rather arbitrary.

I personally don't find enchanting evil, although I agree that it is one of the most selfish acts one can commit. Even if you did not do your own enchanting, you would still be committing an act of treachery against another beings soul/spirit by even using something enchanted as, it would not have gotten that way unless a soul/spirit had been imbued in to the item. On the other hand, the spirit does continue on in the enchanted form indefinately so you could look at it as rendering a being's soul/spirit immortal by using enchanting.

It just gets murkier and murkier for me on this subject so I'll just keep killing things and collecting souls and enchanting stuff so that I can kill more things and collect their souls. Ah... the Circle of Life (Death?).

My guess is that most call acts that do damage to others without cause (or simply for the joy of it) evil. It would also depend on just what level of regard you hold the lives of other beings. To me, most things are trying to survive and propogate their group. Therefore, evil really doesn't come in to the picture. A monstrous act cannot make the definition for something being a Monster. If that was true, then Ulfrich is a monster for what he did the the High King. There was no need to shout him to death when running a sword through him would have been just as effective. It was an act of "Look at me and how powerful I am". Does that make him evil or a monster?

Yes, yes it does make him a monster