Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[KingNLD]

Well, I was hoping Epic would be smart enough to scroll down into sources when unsure. What I was giving him, was just a basic outline of understanding to counter anything Stormcloak supporters come up with. You know how crazy they can be.

he know i'm right! good thing epic nord, XD besides we are crazy my eyes fall out! we let our own people not kill!
yeah man we are crazy!

 

[DrunkenMage]

 

[KingNLD]

same with me!

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Someone else can take my place, I have been debating with illogical, unreasonable, contradicting, complete idiots.

​

We drink to our youth, to days come and gone.​

For the age of aggression is just about done.​

We'll drive out the Stormcloaks and restore what we own.​

With our blood and our steel we'll take back our home.​

Down with Ulfric the killer of kings. On the day of your death we'll drink and we'll sing.​

We're the children of Skyrim, and we fight all our lives.​

And when Sovngarde beckons, every one of us dies!​

But this land is ours and we'll see it wiped clean.​

Of the scourge that has sullied our hopes and our dreams.​

So, your a congressman eh?

 

[DrunkenMage]

So, your a congressman eh?

 

[Gearuvagen]

RAIJIN is a Stormcloak so have you not read the post. i having it not about talling tales but see the Riften palace by yourself you see more diamonds or other things like that than in solitude you don't believe me check by yourself!

so you kill the emporor and you friends to wow i damn you kickt out the legion if i tell that.!

Trust me I know what side Raijin is on I used it as an example. Stating that the non-military factions have no context in this discussion.

The loot you find laying around is not capital used for military funding.....some people's children......
The Imperial's have the wealthy holds. It's a fact.


Now a question for you. What does Ulfric have? Countless people have explained the resources the Empire has at it's disposal yet you have done no more than yell. "Nuh Uh" or "It's all lies" or made up some random nonfactual nonsense. So tell me what do the Stormies have? Besides fancy bear hats?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Empire has Chuck Norris.

 

[Epic Keith]

Well, I was hoping Epic would be smart enough to scroll down into sources when unsure. What I was giving him, was just a basic outline of understanding to counter anything Stormcloak supporters come up with. You know how crazy they can be.

Sorry Lord Vader, I have failed you. King's arguments are just too..... There is not even a word to describe it. He has no sense of strategy or economy. He thinks Skyrim will survive on it's own. Balgruuf said Skyrim would never survive. I have gone so mad of this discussion that I've decided to switch out.

And this is every Stormcloak I debated with

 

[Epic Keith]

Empire has Chuck Norris.

 

[Gothic90]

Dear god.....
High Rock's main export is Battlemages. Nords are afraid of Magick, they can't combat magick. I'd wager 1 squad of the Shadow Legion could make Skyrim their Bitch. Hard work and living in Snow won't stop a lightning bolt from disintegrating you.

Not to mention. Ulfric can't do pl***, He has no resources no standing army, it's a glorified militia ,what's he going to attack with?
He has Windhelm, an absolute train wreck of a hold ripe with segregation and poverty. Winterhold, pretty much just an inn and a store. Dawnstar, what ulfric calls a "port", it a dock with a blacksmith and an Iron & Quicksilver mine. The only sub par hold the Stormcloaks control is Riften and even it is secretly owned by the Empire through Maven Black-Briar, who has the Thieves guild and the Jarl in her pocket.
So I ask you how long do you think Ulfric can keep up his so called "Rebellion"? 1 maybe 2 more years? The Imperial Auxiliary could last decades on Markarth silver alone. Not to mention resources from them Empire and Trade.
Who is trading with the Stormcloaks? No one. Who might trade with the Stormcloaks? No one.
From a Strategic point of view there is absolutely no possible way for the Stormcloaks to come out of this victorious. If you think different than there's no choice but to wait for ES 6 to show Ulfric's skull gracing the walls of the Imperial City.

Except much of Markarth's wealth is claimed by the silver-bloods, who support Ulfric. If Riften is seen secretly owned by the empire, then the silver-bloods need to be taken into account.

I also highly doubt Maven would actively support the legion. She's more likely to keep the wealth as her own. Thongvor on the other hand is more like a fanatic. He's selfish, he's a bully but he is probably more likely to support the stormcloaks army with some of his family's wealth.

Much of what said here could be said to Empire side's minor holds as well. Falkreath consists of a Jarl's mead stock and fine clothes, and Morthal is a bunch of graves and cave with vampires and more graves, along with someone who studies graves and vampires.

Who's trading with Stormcloaks? There are stormcloak supporters who are tradesman, or people who live in Stormcloak alleged towns and want to make a living.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Riften is a stagnant crap hole. It is no way the richest, you're making up your own lore again I suggest you read up on the holds of Skyrim and try again. All the wealth that Riften has is Maven's and Maven does pretty much own the Jarl listen to Laila talk in the keep.
You think Windhelm is the Best & beautiful? Maybe in a crying clown type of why. but Windhelm is worthless. Secondly you don't run the Guild or Brotherhood, I do and Epic Nord & Dagmar & Drunken Mage & Raijin. You see how that works? You can't affect anything. Seeing how those questlines don't matter in the Civil War to begin with.

You make an excellent point for the most part but you lost me with your delusions of grandeur at the end. From the sounds of things if I kicked all those aforementioned members in the arse, you'd get concussion buddy!

 

[Gothic90]

I keep going back to a scene at the wedding you attend at Solitude. An Imperial lady argues with a Nord man. The Imperial lady says that the imperials had to fight off the invaders to preserve their way of life in Cyrodil. To which the man answers"My point exactly". Ulfric may not be the saviour he claims and may have even manipulated his followers into following him but this would not have been possible if secretly they didn't always want to fight. I don't believe that the storm cloaks fight for Ulfric, I don't believe that they're fighting their brothers and sisters in the legion out of hatred for the empire. I believe that they're fighting for their right to worship Talos and Ulfric has used this passion to further his ambitions for the throne, it just so happens that those in the red uniform are standing in their way. A shame really, as the Thalmor are the real enemy.

I don't think it's only Talos.

There is also even older belief than Talos. Mostly challenge, animal worship (seen in Draugr caves) and strength worship. Barbarian culture.

That is why I think whether Ulfric shouted Torygg apart or killed him with a sword does not matter. Because it is OK either way in barbarian culture, and not OK either way in a city state civilization.

Whether Skyrim's barbarian culture is preserved is a good thing, comes down to everyone's perspectives. Some may say it's worth preserving, some would say it is too barbaric to exist.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I don't think it's only Talos.

There is also even older belief than Talos. Mostly challenge, animal worship (seen in Draugr caves) and strength worship. Barbarian culture.

That is why I think whether Ulfric shouted Torygg apart or killed him with a sword does not matter. Because it is OK either way in barbarian culture, and not OK either way in a city state civilization.

Whether Skyrim's barbarian culture is preserved is a good thing, comes down to everyone's perspectives. Some may say it's worth preserving, some would say it is too barbaric to exist.

As the king of the horde I think you know where I stand on the matter lol

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

It has been a while since I've popped in here...

 

[Epic Keith]

Except much of Markarth's wealth is claimed by the silver-bloods, who support Ulfric. If Riften is seen secretly owned by the empire, then the silver-bloods need to be taken into account.

I also highly doubt Maven would actively support the legion. She's more likely to keep the wealth as her own. Thongvor on the other hand is more like a fanatic. He's selfish, he's a bully but he is probably more likely to support the stormcloaks army with some of his family's wealth.

Much of what said here could be said to Empire side's minor holds as well. Falkreath consists of a Jarl's mead stock and fine clothes, and Morthal is a bunch of graves and cave with vampires and more graves, along with someone who studies graves and vampires.

Who's trading with Stormcloaks? There are stormcloak supporters who are tradesman, or people who live in Stormcloak alleged towns and want to make a living.

We are talking about provinces trading with eachother. Summerset Isle, Valenwood, Elsweyr, Cyrodil and High Rock are out of the question. Hammerfell is the only viable trading option but they can't offer any other food except for Tamrielic Cactus . Morrowind is a wasteland and Black Marsh is a poisonous Marsh. Skyrim can't live on it's own without trade. Balgruuf said that himself

 

[Gothic90]

We are talking about provinces trading with eachother. Summerset Isle, Valenwood, Elsweyr, Cyrodil and High Rock are out of the question. Hammerfell is the only viable trading option but they can't offer any other food except for Tamrielic Cactus . Morrowind is a wasteland and Black Marsh is a poisonous Marsh. Skyrim can't live on it's own without trade. Balgruuf said that himself

Of course not. However it would take absolute sentimentalism for anyone to forbid trade with another region. There will always be merchants who want profit. There will always be Nords who are willing to buy from Khajiit and Orcs. Stormcloaks may not want to buy from non-Nords but that just means the price of goods from Nords is going to be higher and eventually they will buy cheaper goods from other merchants if they are not rich.

Trade always exists. Khajiit caravans are willing to trade everywhere in the middle of both civil war and dragon rising. More merchants will come when both wars are over.

 

[Epic Keith]

Of course not. However it would take absolute sentimentalism for anyone to forbid trade with another region. There will always be merchants who want profit. There will always be Nords who are willing to buy from Khajiit and Orcs. Stormcloaks may not want to buy from non-Nords but that just means the price of goods from Nords is going to be higher and eventually they will buy cheaper goods from other merchants if they are not rich.

Trade always exists. Khajiit caravans are willing to trade everywhere in the middle of both civil war and dragon rising. More merchants will come when both wars are over.

Your points are valid. But that is just small-scale trade. If Skyrim wants to survive then it needs to trade from a large faction like a government. A few traders can't guarantee a province's survival

Finally someone who speaks sense around here!

 

[Reaper87]

In most of my characters, I go with the Stormcloaks, because I think their motives are worthwhile. Plus their armour looks really cool! :3

 

[Docta Corvina]

Having recently done the Stormcloak questline, my overall position favoring the Imperials remains resolute, if not even more reinforced. I simply cannot stand Galmar or Ulfric on any personal level, though I will admit that some of Ulfric's dialogue makes him a bit more sympathetic than his lieutenant. The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor's "attention" to Skyrim after a Stormcloak victory makes me even more confident in my beliefs - whether it should or not. A war-torn and politically divided province invites further chaos. If and how it will come remains to be seen.

 

[Epic Keith]

In most of my characters, I go with the Stormcloaks, because I think their motives are worthwhile. Plus their armour looks really cool! :3

I could just whack a random guard and get a Stormcloak armor in different color! Plus, I like Greek/Roman armor