feliciano182
Well-Known Member
I could take over for a bit, almost every post I see from you is in defense of The Empire
!
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
I could take over for a bit, almost every post I see from you is in defense of The Empire
!
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It depends on Imperial Authority, the last twenty years Windhelm has lost that authority, Ulfric hasn't supported the Empire for couple of decades. Ulfric's fathers were better caring for the other races. If Ulfric supported Imperial authority, his city would be in better condition. Imperial authority while it can't force someone to do something it promotes peace and stability, which is seen through all lore content. When Imperial authority is high all races are doing good, Nords are very stubborn that is noted in game many times over even in Morrowind the description of a Nord. Since Ulfric took the throne of Windhelm, it has steadily grew further away from any Imperial authority, even the East Empire Company was shut down because of pirates being used by a Nord family.
'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' Scourge of the Gray Quarter
Now while Jarls may support the Empire, it doesn't mean their actions are that of Imperials, Imperial authority comes and goes outside of Cyrodiil since every Province still maintains their own governments and laws, they still own their province which can be seen when they Invade each other with their own armies, when Imperial authority drops. The Empire is only as good as Imperial authority so to speak, while they are a part of the Empire, their actions are not that of the Empire. The banning of Khajiit from entering Nord cities is a Nord thing, a Province issue, while the Empire doesn't support that action, the Nords still own the land and can say who is allowed to enter and who isn't. If the Imperials tried to force the Jarls to do this or do that, Skyrim would be up in arms. Skyrim belongs to the Nords, they joined the Empire willingly not from being conquered so they certainly have more say in their land.
Nocte Aeterna
Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Film
Rest assured, I support the Empire as well!
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
I dunno, I may have to make an inglorious return as well. I'd been taking a break, but Drunken deserves some additional support.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'm trying to make each counter argument valid with some backing. Just gets harder and harder when attacked with illogical issues at times... *Cough* raijin *Cough*
Nocte Aeterna
Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Film
You do have to understand that the Stormcloaks have a fairly illogical cause to begin with. Ergo, you won't have a very substantial argument from them. Coexistence has existed in Tamriel for centuries, long before the events of Skyrim.
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
We'll back you up, we better do unless we want to see you roaming the forum yelling WABBAJACK WABBAJACK WABBAJACK !
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
There are moments in this thread where I just want to do this.
Yes, Raijin has that effect on people.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
There are moments in this thread where I just want to do this.
I have MANY moments like that in here.
It's why I'm forced to take breaks.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I have MANY moments like that in here.
It's why I'm forced to take breaks.
It's not easy being a Legionnaire.
Nocte Aeterna
Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Film
It's difficult indeed. Especially when you're trying to put up with Ulfric's bigoted lunacy.
The Laoch
He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
I do enjoy playing both sides since I only play two races:
Nords: Stormcloaks
Bretons: Empire
I can't say I support one side or another, but I can say a plus for the Stormcloaks is, nothing is better than killing the "best and brightest soldiers".
A plus for the Empire is the feeling that you join a giant army that is mostly unstoppable.
Nords: Stormcloaks
Bretons: Empire
I can't say I support one side or another, but I can say a plus for the Stormcloaks is, nothing is better than killing the "best and brightest soldiers".
A plus for the Empire is the feeling that you join a giant army that is mostly unstoppable.
Machamango
New Member
My opinion is that you should probably side with the Imperials. First off, the Stormcloaks feel anyone who isn't a Nord is inferior. So in a real situation you probably wouldn't be allowed to join. But that's only if you want to make it a realistic. Another reason, which is partly opinion, is that the Imperial choice is better for Skyrim. It's the Imperials who hold the Thalmor back. Without them the Thalmor would kill off the rebels, and without anyone in control they would take over. And if they were in control, non-elf races would be most likely eradicated from Skyrim and that would be bad.
Ozan
the Magnificent Bastard
((Going to bow out for the night. Hard and long day at work and just found out a good friend is pregnant. Le sigh...
Anyways, I roll with four characters. Two Imperial, two Stormcloak. Out of character, I refuse to pick a side because choosing the lesser of two evils is still picking evil. Though I prefer Stormcloak because I like blue. :I
Night.))
((Edit: I also have a pet peeve of killing women in video games or watching them die in movies. Only have to kill Rikke with Stormcloak, and I usually step back for that.))
Anyways, I roll with four characters. Two Imperial, two Stormcloak. Out of character, I refuse to pick a side because choosing the lesser of two evils is still picking evil. Though I prefer Stormcloak because I like blue. :I
Night.))
((Edit: I also have a pet peeve of killing women in video games or watching them die in movies. Only have to kill Rikke with Stormcloak, and I usually step back for that.))
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I pick Stormcloaks because I know how it feels for a government to try to dictate what you can and cannot do. I've been trying to fight for a while to get marijuana legalized so I can use it for medical reasons, and yet it keeps getting denied because of political bullplops. I can understand Ulfrics reason for wanting to rid of the Empire because his freedom to worship Talos (A HUGE big deal for the Nord people) is being torn away.
Does Ulfric has flaws? You bet your ass he does. Why should you be against the Stormcloaks because of his flaws? Nobody is perfect. I do not like his segregation policy in his hold., but again I haven't gotten the chance to ask why so I refuse to pass judgement without knowing. The same goes for the Markarth incident. I don't have enough solid proof for me to judge Ulfric as some savage blood thirsty killer. I need more than just some book to convince me otherwise.
Do I hate the Empire? No. I feel sorry for them because they're struggling to gain strength. Their losing power as the Aldmeri Dominion gains tremendous amount of power... especially after the treaty that the Emperor signed to halt the Great war for a while.
Do I think Ulfric is terrified of the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor? Yes I do think he is... only because he has personal experience dealing with them as he was brutally tortured by one. His interrogator,Elenwen, is in his own country, as the First Emissary of the Thalmor, under Imperial protection. He knows that his people are getting slaughtered because of their faith mainly due to the fact that the Emperor signed the treaty.
Does Ulfric has flaws? You bet your ass he does. Why should you be against the Stormcloaks because of his flaws? Nobody is perfect. I do not like his segregation policy in his hold., but again I haven't gotten the chance to ask why so I refuse to pass judgement without knowing. The same goes for the Markarth incident. I don't have enough solid proof for me to judge Ulfric as some savage blood thirsty killer. I need more than just some book to convince me otherwise.
Do I hate the Empire? No. I feel sorry for them because they're struggling to gain strength. Their losing power as the Aldmeri Dominion gains tremendous amount of power... especially after the treaty that the Emperor signed to halt the Great war for a while.
Do I think Ulfric is terrified of the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor? Yes I do think he is... only because he has personal experience dealing with them as he was brutally tortured by one. His interrogator,Elenwen, is in his own country, as the First Emissary of the Thalmor, under Imperial protection. He knows that his people are getting slaughtered because of their faith mainly due to the fact that the Emperor signed the treaty.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I don't like the Empire, it is largely ineffective when maintaining peace and order. Being a part of the Empire doesn't make each action of a province that of what the Empire represents. I do support Imperial Authority, which is what makes the Empire work properly, Imperial authority shows how effective Imperials at maintaining peace and order, not just the race but the ideology of it.
Imperials are also known for the discipline and training of their citizen armies, and their respect for the rule of law. Though physically less imposing than the other races, the Imperials have proved to be shrewd diplomats and traders, and these traits, along with their remarkable skill and training as light infantry, have enabled them to subdue all the other nations and races and erect the monument to peace and prosperity that comprises the Glorious Empire. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial
Imperial authority is what really makes the Empire great, when Imperial authority declines there are many wars and issues that happen within the provinces, Skyrim is no exception. The Nords do run Skyrim and how well Skyrim does in our eyes depends on how high Imperial authority is, the actions of Nords don't reflect that of what the Empire truly is, when Imperial authority was low all the provinces were at war with each other during the Imperial Simulacrum, they really hate each other at times. Nords aren't the best examples of what Imperial Authority represents, they are very set in their ways and are war like, when Imperial authority was low they invaded the two provinces of High Rock and Hammerfell. "Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." How the Empire works is provinces have a lot of control of themselves, being a part of the Empire doesn't mean all that much, they were all at war with each other despite being a part of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imper...ng_the_Imperial_Simulacrum.2C_3E_389_-_3E_399
Imperial authority isn't high in Skyrim, Nords are stubborn and aren't the most on logic and reason, just because a Jarl supports the Empire doesn't mean their actions are that of the Imperials, Solitude is Skyrim's main center of Imperial authority and it is a great city, ordered and full of diverse populations, but it still has drawbacks Imperial authority isn't the absolute law, the Nords still run the cities, Imperial authority is an idea that most provinces sometimes ignore. Windhelm is a prime example of no Imperial authority. Throughout the Empire's history when Imperial authority is low there are so many issues between the other races. Nords aren't the most easy race of people to get along with or to really control, Skyrim is controlled by the Nords, and it does extremely amazing when Imperial authority is big, moment Imperial authority gets low the Nords are basically on the borders of their neighbors with their axes and war horns blaring sounding a charge to get some land.
Slavery was used against the Empire in posts before, because they allow it to occur in Morrowind. Slavery is banned by the Empire with the exception of Morrowind due to a treaty signed by Tiber Septim, which is known as The Treaty of the Armistice - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Armistice, people should have a read about it because it shows that Morrowind isn't controlled by Imperials, it joined the Empire through treaty, the Dunmer had a very large say in what happens in their lands, you can only imagine how much freedom the Nords actually have in their politics and ruling of Skyrim since they joined Tiber Septim before he even became Emperor. Back onto slavery however, The Empire was against it but Imperial authority isn't high in Morrowind, Ebonheart which was the seat of Imperial authority in Morrowind was actually the location escaped slaves would flee to, they would hide in the Argonian Mission located in Ebonheart because of the Imperial Authority presence.
Many Jarls are used as reasons to be against the Empire, their actions do not reflect that of what the Empire is, nor does it reflect on how the Imperials are, Nords are Nords. Their actions as Jarls reflects who they are as rulers, Imperials cannot simply overthrow a Jarl because they dislike what they are doing, if Imperials started doing that without a Jarl breaching Imperial law there would be hell to pay. Jarls aren't the large in the political word of the Empire, the High King/Queen is Skyrim's connection to the Empire but it is the Elder Council and the Inner Council that truly run the Empire. 'Elder Council has full legislative authority, being able to enact new laws wherein they deem them proper; to counter this, the reigning Emperor retains the power of veto' - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Elder_Council
Imperial authority is what makes the Empire become amazing and full of peace and prosperity. So I do not support the Empire, every province has too much freedom to do as they please, this really limits on what the Empire can be. Imperial authority is just low the further you get from Cyrodiil. I support the Imperial Legion not because I want Elisif to be the High Queen, or because I dislike Ulfric, I support the return of Imperial authority. Tamriel isn't a perfect world, racial equality is something that is spread from Imperial authority, Skyrim by itself isn't one to make friends, no province of the Empire is into making friends. Imperial authority spreads that message, provinces would rather attack each other, Ulfric seeks to remove all Imperial influence from Skyrim, that is harmful for those who actually like racial equality, fairness and peace.
The Thalmor and the Empire, they are not best buddies. They're both preparing for war with each other, the ban on Talos didn't happen yesterday or a week ago, the terms of the Treaty were accepted by Skyrim or they would of been like Hammerfell. The treaty came into play basically twenty or more years ago, the Empire did not once enforce the ban of Talos until Ulfric started on it, yeah I don't hate the man I just feel he couldn't see the big picture, everyone still had their shrine to Talos, those within the Empire and Imperial Legions still worshiped Talos in secret. The Thalmor put pressure on the Empire to uphold their agreement of the treaty, as Lokir tells you in the carriage to Helgan "The Empire was nice and lazy until you Stormcloaks came along" The Empire was busy and were doing an extremely poor job in 'enforcing the ban on Talos' They weren't paying much attention to Skyrim, everything was focused on Cyrodiil who are connected by two Dominion held provinces, Cyrodiil that was shattered and needed repair, cities that needed the return of Imperial authority due to bandits and other issues that were unchecked because the Legions were fighting. Imperial authority would of been dropping in other Provinces while the focus was on Cyrodiil and now this great threat the Thalmor. For the last twenty years Skyrim has been losing that great Imperial authority, it is slowly getting it back now, so yeah there are many things in Skyrim that aren't perfect. But the Imperials are trying to keep the peace and restore that authority.
People ask how long does it take for the Empire to be ready, it takes time rebuilding cities, restoring peace and order, gaining soldiers for the Legions. If it had been say fifty or one hundred years then yeah I would be going "What is taking so long" The Legions were badly damaged and they are more than likely getting more recruits now after twenty years, babies born after the great war are getting of age. But many fathers and boys just of age would of been killed serving in the Legions, thousands more than likely died. Even civilians killed by Thalmor.
The Empire is not controlled by the Thalmor, they can tell the Empire what to do when it involves the treaty, but they do not run it. If the Thalmor controlled the Empire, would the Empire really be preparing for a war against them? Just because the Thalmor say something doesn't make it true, the Thalmor were truly hurt in the great war, the Imperial army may of got a beating and the Empire got a smack to get them back on track, but the Imperial Army still stands, the main Dominion Army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, wiped out. Their General hung from the White-Gold Tower.
Empire and Thalmor hate each other with a passion. The Thalmor seek to destroy the Empire, not join forces with them. Yeah the Empire accepted some rather harsh terms but sacrifices need to be made for peace, it isn't an ever lasting peace. It is the calm between storms.
Season Unending, when Elenwen was a part of the Imperial delegation, this would of been forced onto Tullius, he wouldn't do anything that would breach the Treaty until he is ordered to by the Empire. Elenwen would of more than likely been brought because the last time Ulfric made demands it breached the treaty, Tullius lets on Ulfric can't dictate who he brings to the table, Tullius wouldn't of brought her because he felt like it or he even wanted her there, he hates her.
Talos worship is important to Nords, but many realized peace was important also. Everyone still had their little shrine to Talos and the Empire ignored it.
Imperial Authority is what Skyrim needs once more.
Imperials are also known for the discipline and training of their citizen armies, and their respect for the rule of law. Though physically less imposing than the other races, the Imperials have proved to be shrewd diplomats and traders, and these traits, along with their remarkable skill and training as light infantry, have enabled them to subdue all the other nations and races and erect the monument to peace and prosperity that comprises the Glorious Empire. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial
Imperial authority is what really makes the Empire great, when Imperial authority declines there are many wars and issues that happen within the provinces, Skyrim is no exception. The Nords do run Skyrim and how well Skyrim does in our eyes depends on how high Imperial authority is, the actions of Nords don't reflect that of what the Empire truly is, when Imperial authority was low all the provinces were at war with each other during the Imperial Simulacrum, they really hate each other at times. Nords aren't the best examples of what Imperial Authority represents, they are very set in their ways and are war like, when Imperial authority was low they invaded the two provinces of High Rock and Hammerfell. "Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." How the Empire works is provinces have a lot of control of themselves, being a part of the Empire doesn't mean all that much, they were all at war with each other despite being a part of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imper...ng_the_Imperial_Simulacrum.2C_3E_389_-_3E_399
Imperial authority isn't high in Skyrim, Nords are stubborn and aren't the most on logic and reason, just because a Jarl supports the Empire doesn't mean their actions are that of the Imperials, Solitude is Skyrim's main center of Imperial authority and it is a great city, ordered and full of diverse populations, but it still has drawbacks Imperial authority isn't the absolute law, the Nords still run the cities, Imperial authority is an idea that most provinces sometimes ignore. Windhelm is a prime example of no Imperial authority. Throughout the Empire's history when Imperial authority is low there are so many issues between the other races. Nords aren't the most easy race of people to get along with or to really control, Skyrim is controlled by the Nords, and it does extremely amazing when Imperial authority is big, moment Imperial authority gets low the Nords are basically on the borders of their neighbors with their axes and war horns blaring sounding a charge to get some land.
Slavery was used against the Empire in posts before, because they allow it to occur in Morrowind. Slavery is banned by the Empire with the exception of Morrowind due to a treaty signed by Tiber Septim, which is known as The Treaty of the Armistice - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Armistice, people should have a read about it because it shows that Morrowind isn't controlled by Imperials, it joined the Empire through treaty, the Dunmer had a very large say in what happens in their lands, you can only imagine how much freedom the Nords actually have in their politics and ruling of Skyrim since they joined Tiber Septim before he even became Emperor. Back onto slavery however, The Empire was against it but Imperial authority isn't high in Morrowind, Ebonheart which was the seat of Imperial authority in Morrowind was actually the location escaped slaves would flee to, they would hide in the Argonian Mission located in Ebonheart because of the Imperial Authority presence.
Many Jarls are used as reasons to be against the Empire, their actions do not reflect that of what the Empire is, nor does it reflect on how the Imperials are, Nords are Nords. Their actions as Jarls reflects who they are as rulers, Imperials cannot simply overthrow a Jarl because they dislike what they are doing, if Imperials started doing that without a Jarl breaching Imperial law there would be hell to pay. Jarls aren't the large in the political word of the Empire, the High King/Queen is Skyrim's connection to the Empire but it is the Elder Council and the Inner Council that truly run the Empire. 'Elder Council has full legislative authority, being able to enact new laws wherein they deem them proper; to counter this, the reigning Emperor retains the power of veto' - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Elder_Council
Imperial authority is what makes the Empire become amazing and full of peace and prosperity. So I do not support the Empire, every province has too much freedom to do as they please, this really limits on what the Empire can be. Imperial authority is just low the further you get from Cyrodiil. I support the Imperial Legion not because I want Elisif to be the High Queen, or because I dislike Ulfric, I support the return of Imperial authority. Tamriel isn't a perfect world, racial equality is something that is spread from Imperial authority, Skyrim by itself isn't one to make friends, no province of the Empire is into making friends. Imperial authority spreads that message, provinces would rather attack each other, Ulfric seeks to remove all Imperial influence from Skyrim, that is harmful for those who actually like racial equality, fairness and peace.
The Thalmor and the Empire, they are not best buddies. They're both preparing for war with each other, the ban on Talos didn't happen yesterday or a week ago, the terms of the Treaty were accepted by Skyrim or they would of been like Hammerfell. The treaty came into play basically twenty or more years ago, the Empire did not once enforce the ban of Talos until Ulfric started on it, yeah I don't hate the man I just feel he couldn't see the big picture, everyone still had their shrine to Talos, those within the Empire and Imperial Legions still worshiped Talos in secret. The Thalmor put pressure on the Empire to uphold their agreement of the treaty, as Lokir tells you in the carriage to Helgan "The Empire was nice and lazy until you Stormcloaks came along" The Empire was busy and were doing an extremely poor job in 'enforcing the ban on Talos' They weren't paying much attention to Skyrim, everything was focused on Cyrodiil who are connected by two Dominion held provinces, Cyrodiil that was shattered and needed repair, cities that needed the return of Imperial authority due to bandits and other issues that were unchecked because the Legions were fighting. Imperial authority would of been dropping in other Provinces while the focus was on Cyrodiil and now this great threat the Thalmor. For the last twenty years Skyrim has been losing that great Imperial authority, it is slowly getting it back now, so yeah there are many things in Skyrim that aren't perfect. But the Imperials are trying to keep the peace and restore that authority.
People ask how long does it take for the Empire to be ready, it takes time rebuilding cities, restoring peace and order, gaining soldiers for the Legions. If it had been say fifty or one hundred years then yeah I would be going "What is taking so long" The Legions were badly damaged and they are more than likely getting more recruits now after twenty years, babies born after the great war are getting of age. But many fathers and boys just of age would of been killed serving in the Legions, thousands more than likely died. Even civilians killed by Thalmor.
The Empire is not controlled by the Thalmor, they can tell the Empire what to do when it involves the treaty, but they do not run it. If the Thalmor controlled the Empire, would the Empire really be preparing for a war against them? Just because the Thalmor say something doesn't make it true, the Thalmor were truly hurt in the great war, the Imperial army may of got a beating and the Empire got a smack to get them back on track, but the Imperial Army still stands, the main Dominion Army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, wiped out. Their General hung from the White-Gold Tower.
Empire and Thalmor hate each other with a passion. The Thalmor seek to destroy the Empire, not join forces with them. Yeah the Empire accepted some rather harsh terms but sacrifices need to be made for peace, it isn't an ever lasting peace. It is the calm between storms.
Season Unending, when Elenwen was a part of the Imperial delegation, this would of been forced onto Tullius, he wouldn't do anything that would breach the Treaty until he is ordered to by the Empire. Elenwen would of more than likely been brought because the last time Ulfric made demands it breached the treaty, Tullius lets on Ulfric can't dictate who he brings to the table, Tullius wouldn't of brought her because he felt like it or he even wanted her there, he hates her.
Talos worship is important to Nords, but many realized peace was important also. Everyone still had their little shrine to Talos and the Empire ignored it.
Imperial Authority is what Skyrim needs once more.
Elladale_Darkwood
New Member
I find the Stormcloaks very racist to non Nords. Within 5 second of being in Windhelm I overheard two Nords insulting a female Dark Elf, turned me off to them right away. That and my dad had his Orc join them and he was constantly being insulted too.
Adam Belmont
Active Member
You play exactly as I do. My Breton supports the empire and the nord the Stormcloaks.
I recently played the civil war questline again with my nord. I did the Stormcloaks because when I created him I had in mind that when I had finished the main quest and all other quests I would join the rebellion, but it doesn't feel right. Specially when you are at the truce negotiation quest, Ulfric acts like an arrogant douche trying to take advantage of the situation. I don't like the Empire but Gen. Tullius is a honorable man, I tend to see the empire as the "good" side more than I see the Stormcloaks (the cause is legitim but their leader is not a honorable man)
PS: another thing, after you conquer Whiterun for example, after I talked to Adrianne Avenicci I felt bad about being a Stormcloak because of this line, I asked her about the Stormcloak government and she said: "Well, not a great deal, no. But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business."
That got me in the stomach because I like Adrianne, is one of my favorite NPC's of the game. At least with my breton I don't feel that way.
