Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ozan]

all im saying is, by definition, he murdered him. killing someone illegally is murder and since, at the time, it was an imperial Provence it used imperial law. the duel was illegal under Imperial law. if Skyrim was independent and that happened then it wouldn't be murder but it wasn't independent. besides, Nords who back the empire say he murdered him and every witnesses, with the exception of Ulfric, say that he murdered him.

Not to revive a subject as dead as the empire itself, but didn't this one use similar words claiming that Khajiit may be oppressed because the Colovian allows their provinces to have their own laws? Is this not why slavery was allowed in Morrowind rather than banned by Colovian laws?

My, my... is the Colovian not biased? Ozan must wonder so.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not to revive a subject as dead as the empire itself, but didn't this one use similar words claiming that Khajiit may be oppressed because the Colovian allows their provinces to have their own laws? Is this not why slavery was allowed in Morrowind rather than banned by Colovian laws?

My, my... is the Colovian not biased? Ozan must wonder so.

How were the Khajiit oppressed?

 

[Ozan]

Khajiit is not allowed in Nord cities. Foreign, outcasts, pariahs. Khajiit lingers because Khajiit is cunning.

Seeing as how the Stormcloaks have no problem in fighting under a man who refuses to rescind laws regarding the segregation of the Dunmer, I'd say they're either ignorant to the plight of the Dark Elves or otherwise outwardly condone it. The laws implemented in Windhelm predate Ulfric's rule, they go back to his father's time as Jarl.

How can one claim they fight to end racism because the opponent oppresses the Elf when one's own side refuses to aid Khajiit. Perhaps it is because the Dunmer claimed it was Imperial law, their right to claim slaves under Colovian rule that none challenged such barbaric happenings.

The horror of a home in the cold sands of Skyrim. The Elf complains the most, and they are heard because the enemy bears an agenda.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Khajiit is not allowed in Nord cities. Foreign, outcasts, pariahs. Khajiit lingers because Khajiit is cunning.



How can one claim they fight to end racism because the opponent oppresses the Elf when one's own side refuses to aid Khajiit. Perhaps it is because the Dunmer claimed it was Imperial law, their right to claim slaves under Colovian rule that none challenged such barbaric happenings.

The horror of a home in the cold sands of Skyrim. The Elf complains the most, and they are heard because the enemy bears an agenda.

Khajiit are not allowed into Nord cities because it is their choice as rulers of that city. Because they are considered thieves and skooma dealers... now before one can claim innocence. They serve as fences for the thieves guild and sell Skooma.

But you blame the Colovians? For whatever reason. If you mean the Empire? Well they have had many races apart of it. Argonian Council Member, an Altmer was in charge of the Empire when Martin Septim died. I don't see how one can blame one race within an Empire made up of all races.

So the Empire is bad because they allow provinces to have their own laws? And that makes the Khajiit oppressed? Would it have been better if the Empire simply went to Elsweyr and said "Your laws don't matter, they are no longer important so they no longer exist, you shall follow only laws we set." The fact the Empire allows each province to govern and maintain their own laws takes away any oppression on that province.

Slavery is illegal within the Empire except Morrowind which was protected by The Treaty of the Armistice established by Tiber Septim which created Peace between Morrowind and Cyrodiil allowing a unified Tamriel. The Empire however does not support slavery.

 

[Ozan]

Khajiit are not allowed into Nord cities because it is their choice as rulers of that city. Because they are considered thieves and skooma dealers... now before one can claim innocence. They serve as fences for the thieves guild and sell Skooma.

But you blame the Colovians? For whatever reason. If you mean the Empire? Well they have had many races apart of it. Argonian Council Member, an Altmer was in charge of the Empire when Martin Septim died. I don't see how one can blame one race within an Empire made up of all races.

So the Empire is bad because they allow provinces to have their own laws? And that makes the Khajiit oppressed? Would it have been better if the Empire simply went to Elsweyr and said "Your laws don't matter, they are no longer important so they no longer exist, you shall follow only laws we set." The fact the Empire allows each province to govern and maintain their own laws takes away any oppression on that province.

Slavery is illegal within the Empire except Morrowind which was protected by The Treaty of the Armistice established by Tiber Septim which created Peace between Morrowind and Cyrodiil allowing a unified Tamriel. The Empire however does not support slavery.

But the Ulfric is accused of his own racism. He is Jarl. It is his city. To OBLIVION with the Dunmer.

If Nord cities are allowed to oppress Khajiit, the Stormcloak Jarl may do as he wishes. The Empire happily stands by in most instances... why is now so different?

 

[DrunkenMage]

But the Ulfric is accused of his own racism. He is Jarl. It is his city. To OBLIVION with the Dunmer.

If Nord cities are allowed to oppress Khajiit, the Stormcloak Jarl may do as he wishes. The Empire happily stands by in most instances... why is now so different?

Of course the Empire can stand by, Elsweyr is no longer apart of the Empire. There for no longer the Empire's problem. If Khajiit have issues they can seek the Thalmor embassy and form a complaint.

 

[Ozan]

Of course the Empire can stand by, Elsweyr is no longer apart of the Empire. There for no longer the Empire's problem. If Khajiit have issues they can seek the Thalmor embassy and form a complaint.

Khajiit has a better idea. Allow the Stormcloak to take Skyrim from the grasps of the inconsistent and lazy. A chance for a nation to be for its people rather than to force its people to be for the nation.

No, Khajiit shall fight against the Empire for Brother Nord.

No, Khajiit shall rise up, no longer shall sands be determined by the rich few.

No, Khajiit shall embrace the idea that all are equal upon the sands of Nirn.

No... Khajiit shall no longer tolerate the raping of the people... the pillaging of lands... the submission of nations.

No. Freedom shall be granted or freedom will be taken. The people begin to rise...

We shall bury the oppressors. It is that simple.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Khajiit has a better idea. Allow the Stormcloak to take Skyrim from the grasps of the inconsistent and lazy. A chance for a nation to be for its people rather than to force its people to be for the nation.

No, Khajiit shall fight against the Empire for Brother Nord.

No, Khajiit shall rise up, no longer shall sands be determined by the rich few.

No, Khajiit shall embrace the idea that all are equal upon the sands of Nirn.

No... Khajiit shall no longer tolerate the raping of the people... the pillaging of lands... the submission of nations.

No. Freedom shall be granted or freedom will be taken. The people begin to rise...

We shall bury the oppressors. It is that simple.

For a group being oppressed by the Aldmeri Dominion who commit acts of ethnic cleansing of their own race. One can only imagine what they would do to Khajiit who they would consider no different than mere beasts. You seem to hate the Empire which actually treats everyone equally.

 

[buggegirl99]

If I were you, I would become an imperial. Because nords are racist, if the Stormcloaks won you (being a khajit) would me underestimated and miserably treated. Forever Imperial!

 

[Ozan]

If I were you, I would become an imperial. Because nords are racist, if the Stormcloaks won you (being a khajit) would me underestimated and miserably treated. Forever Imperial!

This Khajiit has learned otherwise. The Colovian makes no suggestions to allow Khajiit inside the cities. The Colovian is content with simply allowing Khajiit to linger. This is not equality. Khajiit has no rights under the Colovian Nord.

Though true the Stormcloak is far more open as a racial faction, Ozan has learned something of the cold and its affects on water. The colder the water, the quicker it boils. The hotter the water, the quicker it freezes. Nothing will get done under Colovian rule because the Colovian will always claim they have no control over the laws of the Nord. Having treaties in Morrowind that allows Khajiit and Argonian to be enslaved by the Elf type.

These are excuses. The Colovian has no reason to care. No reason to change. Because the Aldmeri are supremists as well will not make the Colovian the lesser of two evils.

If Khajiit fights for the Stormcloak Nord, then Khajiit will be noticed. A cause would be heard... which is far more than one may ask for the Colovian.

If one wants change, then why embrace the status quo?

 

[Ozan]

I observe a man who is not being heard. The Empire I fight for should listen to the grievances of its former citizens and not stop the dialogue by telling them are wrong, because once you have told a man he is wrong, you have lost his ear.

Colovians do allow Khajiits into their cities.

Nords do not allow Khajiits into our cities. Let us admit this and not make excuses.

Nords know that you must tend the oak if you wish to live under it. This includes tending to the harms to those of our brothers who are not kin. But we are also a stubborn race with much to learn and much pride to overcome. How will we ever learn?

I think though that by embracing the Stormcloaks, Ozan, you are as a good man with a bad sword. If you are disarmed in battle, any blade close to hand is better than none, and this is what is in your grasp. But given the choice of a superior weapon, you are wise not to neglect it.

It is my hope that we can offer you a superior weapon.

If the sword is poor then embrace cunning. Khajiit is quite familiar with fighting imbalanced conflicts. If the enemy is strong, then the enemy must be divided. If the enemy is armed, strike as the sword remains in their sheathe. Cunning is a far greater weapon. No need to embrace perceived necessity when one can achieve a voice. Perhaps if slavery was not tolerated and Khajiit was allowed in Colovian owned cities, perhaps then Khajiit would support the Colovian.

Unfortunate that the only ones who may defend Khajiit do not bear the money or the lineage to persuade Jarls and Thanes and Nobles and Kings.

This is another reason Khajiit fights, though absolutely fruitless. He fights so the people themselves are granted equality. When a Thane murders, the guards look away. The people are referred to as rabble. Yet, the Colovian DARES to claim their bid for High Queen as... the Fair.

No. The people suffer because the society embraces this status quo.

Khajiit fights for fellow Khajiit. Khajiit fights for the poverty-stricken. Khajiit fights... because the monarchs are little more than petty tyrants. Khajiit supports one tyrant who challenges the other tyrants and this shall suffice for Ozan.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I find it interesting you blame the Empire for Nords having the ability to decide who can enter cities. You really think the Stormcloaks will simply allow Khajiit inside their cities? No. The Empire does not dictate who is allowed in a NORD city. Nords do. You are claiming you're fighting for people to have equal rights? Or something like that, yet the very Nords who are fighting for religious freedom, suppress the religious freedom of the Reachmen not allowing them to worship their own gods.

You're trying to claim the Empire is bad because they DIDN'T suppress races, they didn't oppress every province and they didn't take control of every province saying "Your laws do not matter, we dictate laws" Considering Khajiit are not even allowed into Windhelm, Argonians are forced to lived outside the walls. Yes the Empire doesn't force the matter, because each province has a right to decide their local laws, every Jarl is largely independent that is like nine separate kingdoms. I do find it strange how one would think siding with the Stormcloaks will make them change and allow Khajiit inside their cities when they dislike all non-nords, they don't shop from non-nord shops. This is evident from cities you take over and speak with Non-Nord merchants.

I do not see how blaming the Empire for what Nords do, which is within their right to do as rulers of their cities. You blame the Empire because they do not oppress and then claim to be oppressed because they aren't oppressing. Khajiit are allowed in Imperial cities so the Empire isn't oppressing. Nord Jarls do not want Khajiit in their cities. The Empire won't force them, just like the Empire did not force Whiterun to take Imperial Legionnaires, the Jarl of Whiterun refused the Empire until Ulfric threatened the city. So Jarls can decide who is let inside their cities even Imperial Legionnaires.

 

[feliciano182]

What do you want to talk about concerning him?

What people thought about his execution, generally I'm against it, as I am with Helgen.

Difference is, I understand everything that happened surrounding Helgen, including what a trial for anyone there would've really meant.

]Answer my question then; why do they exist if the purpose is not as it defines to?

Because, as I told you, it is a formal procedure by which the authorities legally acknowledge they've abided to their standards of justice.

Why would Bethesda even call it a trial if it wasn't...a trial?

There's two kinds of Skyrim players, those who've played previous TES games and those who haven't.

The first group, by default, is going to be more inclined towards joining The Empire, that means that you, as a developer, necessarily needs to make the other faction much more sympathetic, in order to divide people's appreciation for both sides of the conflict, the second group, by cultural osmosis, is going to be more inclined towards joining "The Rebels", it's part of our generation, empires suck, rebellions are hip and cool.

As such, the idea that people could ask for a trial in Skyrim is most likely a red herring from Bethesda, a way to guide the player's hand into joining The Stormcloaks; the same thing happens with Ulfric, one can very well say the guy's a saint and a honorable man, until one reads The Bear Of Markarth or sees the state of Windhelm.

I have something on my side to prove my point; Tullius, the Empire wanting Ulfric to appear in a public trial, and the "trial" itself. You claim it isn't as I say it is, but have offered nothing to support why it isn't.

What of Tullius ? He changed his mind, or was given orders, and redirected to Helgen, what of it ?

As for The Empire, it doesn't matter, in this supposed trial, The Emperor was going to see Ulfric, ask Tullius for an account of High King Torygg's murder, and then just say "Off with his head !".

Is that the kind of trial you were asking for ? Nope, didn't think so.

You have nothing to support that. If you were right Bethesda would not have seen it fit to call what Ulfric and the others were originally supposed to experience a "trial".

What ? You yourself quoted the part that said Tullius was going to take Ulfric to Cyrodiil for a trial !

Tell me why what they do decides whether or not the Empire should follow suit? Remember, we are debating whether or not the Imperials are no better than if not worse than the Stormcloaks.

I don't understand this question.

Though I do disagree with the notion that "Stormcloaks" execute people, I acknowledge there are those who do within the rebel group.

Uhm............so The Stormcloaks also execute people ?

 

[Ilrita]

There's no reason we can't be Civil.

The Empire is obviously incapable of such a thing. You can't be civil if you are mistreating and murdering people. Tell me this; is a murderer less of a murderer if he gives charity? No. He is still as he is.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

I don't get why people keep saying that Ulfric "murdered" Torygg... it was an accident!

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire is obviously incapable of such a thing. You can't be civil if you are mistreating and murdering people. Tell me this; is a murderer less of a murderer if he gives charity? No. He is still as he is.

We're all murderers.

 

[Raijin]

We're all murderers.

We should all lose our heads

 

[DrunkenMage]

We should all lose our heads

Well people seem to have an issue with the Empire and Stormcloaks killing, yet they themselves as the player kill. Hypocrites the lot of them.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

Well people seem to have an issue with the Empire and Stormcloaks killing, yet they themselves as the player kill. Hypocrites the lot of them.

I think it's more-so arguing who is killing for a better cause.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I meant Hammerfell had the whole of the Aldmeri Dominion army at them, not that they had their own army with them.

So how does this serve as anything other than to help prove the point I'm trying to make here?

This isn't a contradiction, as I myself said they would have had a larger force had Ulfric been wise enough to seek Torygg's help. But the fact is they do not right now and thus my post.

Okay?

Had not Ulfric talked to Torygg about this? Visited the council and whatnot? Despite this, Ulfric obviously saw that it was too late for the Imperial Legion, Torygg or the Empire to take action. He himself has mentioned they have been weak for a long time, especially after The Great War.

You're just not getting it and I'm getting rather irritable now, reversing yourself and swapping Torygg with "the Legion" in this argument does absolutely nothing. Torygg had just assumed the throne when Ulfric killed him and had little time to influence anything in his brief reign. Setting aside the obvious flaw in logic in "Oh, he didn't act fast enough so killing him was just;" which is like "Oh, my professor didn't move out of the way when I was copying notes so I ran up and punched him in the face."

Dolling out extremes in this case is ridiculous, Torygg obviously was unhappy with the Empire and also empathized with the Stormcloaks. He let Ulfric into his castle thinking they'd be discussing steps toward independence, which would've made Torygg recognized as a competent High King. Instead Ulfric killed him to clear the way to the crown, it didn't matter that Torygg was a potential ally and had much more ground with the Empire, Ulfric killed him because his priority as High King came first.

No, Ulfric didn't begin the Stormcloaks because he was tired of waiting on the Legion, he formed his rebellion immediately following his incarceration which happened during the Markarth Incident; an event which followed immediately after the war.

So you believe Ulfric decided to kill him simply because Torygg had just assumed the role of High King? I never heard Ulfric say anything close to that, so if he did you will have to show me where he said it, or where it was said besides hearsay from the Imperials.

No, what I've BEEN saying for the past hundred pages is that Ulfric killed Torygg to clear the way to the throne.

So they were officially Stormcloaks

Yes.
[\"The Markarth Incident is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion. In 4E 176, Ulfric Stormcloak and his army retook the city of Markarth in the name of the Empire from Forsworn invaders, under the agreement from the Empire that Talos worship would be permitted."

Note that "The Empire" should be swapped with "Jarl Igmund." The only segment on the matter I could find was from the Elder Scrolls Wikia.

and the Civil War began then, not when the game starts?

First of all the Civil War doesn't even begin with the game's start, and secondly no, the Civil War did not begin then.

And cite what? That he wanted to destroy the Empire? Here are some quotes;

All those quotes simply go to show that Ulfric wants the Empire out of Skyrim, not to outright destroy it and oust it from Tamriel.

That certainly shows how bad Ulfric wishes for the end of the weakened Empire he believes betrayed its people. However, if you were hoping for a straight out "I want to destroy the Empire!" then it won't happen, because that's not how Ulfric words himself.

He wants the end of the Empire in Skyrim and to create a province politically independent from anyone or anything. Or at least this is what he claims as his goals of "freedom" seem to come second to his goal as High King.