Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Tyrone]

I tried to join the stormcloaks on my khajiit, but after meeting some "stormcloaks" like Vunwulf Snow-Shod and Thongvar Silver-Blood, I just can't. Even Galmar's quote to me, saying that the outsiders are a problem, makes me rethink my decision. Luckily I am only at the jagged crown part so I can always turn that in to Tulius. Over the past few weeks I have been doing alot of research, in-game and out of game, and I have come to the conclusion that while the empire is definitely not the best thing for skyrim, it will be alot better than the stormcloaks. Sure, Skyrim does deserve to be free, but not under Ulfric's rule.

 

[feliciano182]

I tried to join the stormcloaks on my khajiit, but after meeting some "stormcloaks" like Vunwulf Snow-Shod and Thongvar Gray-Mane, I just can't.

Aaaaaaand who's the last guy ?

 

[Tyrone]

who's the last guy ?

He is the man who becomes Jarl if the stormcloaks take control of Markarth. I don't like him because he accuses the imperial priest who runs the hall of the dead of defiling bodies, just because he is an imperial. Basically another racist nord.

 

[Ozan]

I tried to join the stormcloaks on my khajiit, but after meeting some "stormcloaks" like Vunwulf Snow-Shod and Thongvar Gray-Mane, I just can't. Even Galmar's quote to me, saying that the outsiders are a problem, makes me rethink my decision. Luckily I am only at the jagged crown part so I can always turn that in to Tulius. Over the past few weeks I have been doing alot of research, in-game and out of game, and I have come to the conclusion that while the empire is definitely not the best thing for skyrim, it will be alot better than the stormcloaks. Sure, Skyrim does deserve to be free, but not under Ulfric's rule.

Brother Khajiit, did one forget? Khajiit are not welcome anywhere within these sands. The Colovian has done far more harm to Khajiit than the Stormcloak Nord.

If one intends to be viewed as an equal, then conquer hardship and crush the lack of diversity. If Skyrim deserves to be free, then free it first. Worry later of who guides her sands.

 

[Tyrone]

Brother Khajiit, did one forget? Khajiit are not welcome anywhere within these sands. The Colovian has done far more harm to Khajiit than the Stormcloak Nord.

If one intends to be viewed as an equal, then conquer hardship and crush the lack of diversity. If Skyrim deserves to be free, then free it first. Worry later of who guides her sands.

How so? On the characters who have gone imperial, I have yet to hear an insult towards a specific race, while on my characters who go stormcloak I hear quite the opposite. I doubt other races besides nords will get rights if Ulfric becomes leader, after all he wants to bring back the old ways, where high kings have absolute power and such, how will going back in time solve anything?

 

[feliciano182]

He is the man who becomes Jarl if the stormcloaks take control of Markarth. I don't like him because he accuses the imperial priest who runs the hall of the dead of defiling bodies, just because he is an imperial. Basically another racist nord.

Thongvar SILVER-BLOOD you mean.

And yes, guy's an idiot, and he's not the worst among them.

 

[Ozan]

How so? On the characters who have gone imperial, I have yet to hear an insult towards a specific race, while on my characters who go stormcloak I hear quite the opposite. I doubt other races besides nords will get rights if Ulfric becomes leader, after all he wants to bring back the old ways, where high kings have absolute power and such, how will going back in time solve anything?

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

The Colovian allows the sands of Skyrim to have their own laws, true. However, in return the Nord allows the Colovian to slaughter her people and oppress those who are different. Because direct words against Khajiit are not frequently spoken by the Legion, it does not necessarily mean the Colovian cares. If Khajiit fights for someone who won't notice them, will it bring change? Force movements? Grant Khajiit rights?

No. The Nord does not trust Khajiit. Fight, and Khajiit would be noticed. Fight well, sympathy would be earned.

More importantly, Nord fights like Khajiit. Ambush, hit and run, patience and cunning. The Colovian hides in the sacred places of our ancestors. Takes our city of Leyawiin. The will of the Colovian is the law of all sands. Khajiit is too free to be oppressed. Too free to do the oppressing.

The Nord is kin to Khajiit. Common enemy, common tactics, and a tad of shared impulsiveness. The Nord simply does not know it yet.

 

[feliciano182]

*Cracks Knuckles*

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

Cat psychology --> ripe with denial !

The Colovian allows the sands of Skyrim to have their own laws, true. However, in return the Nord allows the Colovian to slaughter her people and oppress those who are different.

I wonder, which is the city has segregating, opressive policies, and discriminates non-nords ?

I'm pretty sure it's not Solitude.

Because direct words against Khajiit are not frequently spoken by the Legion, it does not necessarily mean the Colovian cares. If Khajiit fights for someone who won't notice them, will it bring change? Force movements? Grant Khajiit rights?

Yes.

We can all knowledge that racist colovians are plentiful in Skyrim, that does not mean however that The Empire enacts policies of discrimination and segregation actively within it's provinces, any decision to keep the khajiit outside the city is the doing of the nords, and no one else's.

No. The Nord does not trust Khajiit. Fight, and Khajiit would be noticed. Fight well, sympathy would be earned.

Nope, you're still considered a "beast", you will get no more respect from The Stormcloaks than a dragon gets a sword through the eye.

The Colovian hides in the sacred places of our ancestors. Takes our city of Leyawiin. The will of the Colovian is the law of all sands. Khajiit is too free to be oppressed. Too free to do the oppressing.

You know, I can understand people trying to release themselves from The Empire, I mean, we can all agree it's not a perfect, ideal institution.

However, I could believe even an argonian or a dunmer would join the stormcloaks before a khajiit, it's simply outrageous, they are arguably the most hated race by traditionalist nords in Skyrim, and for anyone to believe that fighting in their army would erase ageless prejudices is insane, specially when all the assumptions of a particular khajiit are based on what is essentially chance, and a great great great faith on a change of mind from a group of nords that are killing and dying to preserve their beliefs.

The Nord is kin to Khajiit. Common enemy, common tactics, and a tad of shared impulsiveness. The Nord simply does not know it yet.

Nope, traditionalist nords (stormcloaks) despise beast races and non-nords, this is indisputable.

 

[agfazzone]

I joined the stormcloaks with my Khajiit character (probably too soon, I did that right away)....at first I didn't think they were as "snooty" as the Imperials I had run into, but at that point in the game I hadn't run into the random Nords that will say "What's a Milk-Drinker like you doing in Skyrim?"hahaha...but it's priceless to just destroy them after they say that....if it's in a town, I just aggravate them til they attack first so I don't get a bounty. pretty awesome =p


needless to say, for my new Breton character I joined the Imperials. Partly because of how outsiders are treated by Nords and how the townsfolk of cities my khajiit had conquered w the stormcloaks reacted (well, and how douchey ulfric seems haha), but I also want a different gameplay experience for this time around.

 

[Raijin]

It's academic. The punishment for treason is death. It's not as if he'll be punished further after they execute him for treason. At the end of the day even with a fair trial he's not going to be any less dead.

Perhaps my human rights activism is interfering with my decision of protest against the Empire for not giving Ulfric a fair trial. You can slaughter babies, but I will still fight for you until you are given a fair trial.

The moral of having a trial is to learn new things by collecting evidence and hearing people talk

 

[Raijin]

I tried to join the stormcloaks on my khajiit, but after meeting some "stormcloaks" like Vunwulf Snow-Shod and Thongvar Silver-Blood, I just can't. Even Galmar's quote to me, saying that the outsiders are a problem, makes me rethink my decision. Luckily I am only at the jagged crown part so I can always turn that in to Tulius. Over the past few weeks I have been doing alot of research, in-game and out of game, and I have come to the conclusion that while the empire is definitely not the best thing for skyrim, it will be alot better than the stormcloaks. Sure, Skyrim does deserve to be free, but not under Ulfric's rule.

He is the man who becomes Jarl if the stormcloaks take control of Markarth. I don't like him because he accuses the imperial priest who runs the hall of the dead of defiling bodies, just because he is an imperial. Basically another racist nord.

While you were at Riften shaking your head with disbelief to Vulwulf did you meet a bitter old woman named Maven Black-Briar? The woman who owns Black-Briar Mead? You do realize that if you side with the Imperials that she becomes the next Jarl of Riften. Shes heavily involved crime related organization; The Thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood. She torments other citizens within the hold. She hires the thieves guild to frame people and to force her competition out of business by framing them.

Let's not forget how the Jarl of Falkreach,Siddgeir, is involved in with some local bandits. He pisses away city money for his own personal use... like fetching him Black-Briar Mead.

Thongvar Silver-Blood has every right to be suspicious of that imperial priest, since he refuses to let him go and pay respects for his dead ancestors. He doesn't even explain why he couldn't go either.

 

[Ozan]

*Cracks Knuckles*



Cat psychology --> ripe with denial !



I wonder, which is the city has segregating, opressive policies, and discriminates non-nords ?

I'm pretty sure it's not Solitude.



Yes.

We can all knowledge that racist colovians are plentiful in Skyrim, that does not mean however that The Empire enacts policies of discrimination and segregation actively within it's provinces, any decision to keep the khajiit outside the city is the doing of the nords, and no one else's.



Nope, you're still considered a "beast", you will get no more respect from The Stormcloaks than a dragon gets a sword through the eye.



You know, I can understand people trying to release themselves from The Empire, I mean, we can all agree it's not a perfect, ideal institution.

However, I could believe even an argonian or a dunmer would join the stormcloaks before a khajiit, it's simply outrageous, they are arguably the most hated race by traditionalist nords in Skyrim, and for anyone to believe that fighting in their army would erase ageless prejudices is insane, specially when all the assumptions of a particular khajiit are based on what is essentially chance, and a great great great faith on a change of mind from a group of nords that are killing and dying to preserve their beliefs.



Nope, traditionalist nords (stormcloaks) despise beast races and non-nords, this is indisputable.

Ozan remembers hearing of reports tha a garrison of Legion soldiers allowed for a Nord village to be overran with bandits. The villagers asked for assistance, but they were granted none. This report predates the Oblivion Crisis ((the Nord in Who Dunnit, the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood quest says this)).

They've done nothing in the past against vagabonds and outlaws, why would they care about rebels? Because vagabonds and outlaws don't harm the status quo. Only peasants and common folk.

Khajiit cares for Khajiit in this conflict. If Solitude is truly superior than Windhelm, why is Khajiit still barred from the city? Khajiit is treated the same in both cities and holds, this argument cannot be made.

And yes, Khajiit understands that it is the Nord who makes laws but when the Empire can massacre some within the reach, Ozan doubts their sincerity. The Empire enjoys oppressing, arresting, and executing... perhaps tolerance isn't on their to do list? Ozan is sure that the Empire will maintain the status quo. If they won't do anything then and now because it's the law of the Nord, it won't change later because it's a law of the Nord. That argument cannot be made.

And to address acknowledgement of the Khajiit by Stormcloak... how would you know, you're Imperial! You won't notice Khajiit until after Colovian arrests Khajiit. It is easy to see when Khajiit is not Stormcloak. By earnings the trust of soldiers, a voice is made. A movement supported by fellow Stormcloak. It matters not who speaks, so long as it is spoken. After the war, Khajiit may make requests. But not now. Patience.

Khajiit is also not as hated as the Elf. Some designed weapons specifically for Elf types. Khajiit is simply foreign, an acquired taste. They do not trust it, but they allow some freedoms.

And your statement of indisputable? Do the Stormcloak not fight as guerrillas upon their own sands? Do they not fight through Colovian soldiers? Do theytrust Khajiit? Yes, yes, and no. Khajiit has common foes and tactics. The Nord is very much like Khajiit, they simply do not know it yet. How can this argument be made?

Ozan thinks you speak white lies and exaggerates, disagree to disagree so to speak. Ozan shall not be swayed as your precious Empire crumbles under greed and oppression.

The people shall bury you and the Empire you defend.

(In Soviet Elsweyr...))

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

((Catchy, huh? If you want me to remove it, you gotta say enchanted words that allow the sig to be changed. Ready?

"I, Grogmar Ghrobash, declares the words of Duke Baron Sir Don Reginald Richard Roderick van Ozan Safetybottom Senior IV the Magnificent Bastard, esquire and PhD, both magnificent and reasonable as such words have never been spoken by more magnificent minds.

Oh, Mighty Ozan, though thou words teareth upon my heart strings, I beg of ye to retract such words for they may never compare to his, the mighty and Magnificent, Ozan!

Your tongue of silver and heart of gold is such a glory that no one questions why women faint and lose breath in your very presence, and grown men cry in shame!

Nay, in fact, it requires all my strength to say such words for how may a mere mortal such as I compare?

Alas... I've not wore my safety pants this day.

Release the binds and my torment! Free me from your cruel charm! Release the dirt of my words from your grasp! Kick my puppy!

How I beg thee!"

Then poof. Sig changed. Be sure to roll your R's.))

I think I'll pass, I'm flattered to have been given the opportunity to hold a place on your sig.

 

[Ozan]

I think I'll pass, I'm flattered to have been given the opportunity to hold a place on your sig.

((Ah well. Maybe I can feed off it and people will think because you're in it, I'm nicer than I really am. Makes me feel poetic, really. :3))

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

((Ah well. Maybe I can feed off it and people will think because you're in it, I'm nicer than I really am. Makes me feel poetic, really. :3))

Your graciousness is truly admirable.

 

[Raijin]

It's time for a group hug

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

It's time for a group hug

My hugs usually end up with a blade up the other persons gullet.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Grogmar Ghrobash, your post was detailed and informative. But I still get the impression that your statements lack the full force of conviction - or at least, I am having trouble being persuaded. Perhaps you could clarify some things for me.

Ozan said: ↑

Elsweyr was fooled, the Colovian not even trying to deny it..​

The Empire isn't responsible in disproving claims on phenomenons, that they themselves wouldn't be able to even begin to understand. No one knows how the two moons vanished, or if the Thalmor had truly even been the ones to bring them back.

The Empire may not be responsible for disproving claims, but not to grasp the possible consequences of failing to even dispute it looks like profound neglect to me. Or should we imagine the Imperial council discussing the matter and concluding, "Ah, well, if we say nothing, Elsweyr may fall under the sway of the Aldmeri. But let us not waste time with this matter. After all, it's not our responsibility"?

Ozan said: ↑

Orsinium was disolved for convenience.​

The Empire had nothing to do with this. It was all Hammerfell and High Rocks doing.

Once again. It's not the Empire's responsibility. The Empire only acts out of a very stringent and legalistic view, only acts when it absolutely and utterly must? Regardless of the consequences?

Ozan said: ↑

The Argonian conquered Morrowind, THE FILTHY ARGONIAN, because the Empire stops caring.​

Too many devastations have happened in Morrowind in such a short time that it made it very easy for the Argonians to invade. At the time that Morrowind had been invaded, the Empire hadn't even crowned an Emperor yet since the Oblivion Crisis, so they couldn't possibly have been able to do anything.

So you do not dispute the claim that at certain critical moments in the Empire's history, it has been too weak to do anything? And the rest of the time, you are saying, it has not seen the point of doing anything?

Ozan said: ↑

Why does the Colovian care about Skyrim? They gave away everything else, what makes Skyrim special?​

They're in Skyrim to capture and punish Ulfric for treason.

The question that arises in my mind, then, is: Why are they in Skyrim to put down a "sideshow" little rebellion when they have historically shown so little inclination toward intervention?

I know you've been hinting in some of your post to reply to this, so I suppose I will. You seem to be under the impression that I've been giving my stance on the Civil War. While some post have been, this particular one was just me correcting points that had contradicted the lore. Many of my post have simply just been exactly that. It may seem I'm giving my support of the Empire at times, but this is simply because those who support the SC's tend to contradict what is said in the lore sometimes. I don't care for people giving their opinions, as long as it's accurate with the lore.

My stance on the war though is obviously towards the Empire. As I have mentioned before, I'm a realist. I'm aware of the Thalmor threat and support the side with a better chance of standing against them. I care not for little things people may consider immoral, or oppressing because for one thing, I've yet to see anything in the lore to back most of these claims. I also am not under the delusion that there's a perfect society out there and that these sort of things would only happen under the Empire especially under the same circumstances. I suppose I'm able to justify things easier than others.

 

[Ozan]

My hugs usually end up with a blade up the other persons gullet.

Must be a Colovian.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Must be a Colovian.

I'm an Orc. Silly kitten.