Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

A good hero too, with an inevitably tragic end.

Depending, of course, on your view and you played the game.

It will be interesting nevertheless to see how Bethesda handles things, don't you think?

Haha, touche, touche. I actually can understand the arguments pro-Ulfric. I studied debate in high school, so I'm good about being able to take in the counter-arguments, even if I don't consider them ultimately convincing to my mind.

And I very much agree! Seems like it could go a variety of ways, really. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, there's nothing stopping Beth from having a "The line was broken!" "It has been reforged!" moment with the Empire if Skyrim and High Rock canonically slip away at some point.

 

[Moris]

Haha, touche, touche. I actually can understand the arguments pro-Ulfric. I studied debate in high school, so I'm good about being able to take in the counter-arguments, even if I don't consider them ultimately convincing to my mind.

Yes, yes, you are. Part of the reason you are a joy, a positive joy, to debate with.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I'm sorry, I can't help it. But if you're going to bring up Battlestar Galactica, I have to remember that Micheal Hogan (voice actor for Tullius) is, in fact, a Cylon.

Oh Gods, I know it really just made me love his character more though especially with how ironic it was. But no more, I still haven't finished the series because Netflix doesn't show every episode. The least season being the most important one where the episode of them arriving towards Earth and discovering it's destruction being missing. I want to get the season DVDs for it so bad though. I absolutely love that show and every character on it.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

There's much more off topicness to be marked Solus. I'll be sure to have your hands full.

 

[Docta Corvina]

The Thalmor didn't have to tip him off because it wasn't an impending restriction, it was already in effect. The White-Gold Concordat was signed in 4E 175. Ulfric's campaign to retake the Reach was in 4E 176. The worship of Talos was already in effect throughout the Empire. The fact that Ulfric set forth the open worship of Talos as one of his conditions for recapturing Markarth to Igmund and that he denied entry into the city by the Imperial Legion until it acceded to the same is evidence of the fact that he was well aware of this.

Yes, going by the dates we have, it seems that Ulfric did it in spite of the fact that the Concordat was put into effect. Earlier we were bandying about the notion that there might have been a lag in realization (not even sure where the original question of it came up, but then, I'm quite tired), but in circumspect and going by what we know of Ulfric's character, it's easily reconciled that he did so knowing the new status quo.

Contact doesn't necessarily mean actual conversation with him and to the extent it does it doesn't mean in a form where Uflric is even aware with whom he is dealing. The term asset is used in espionage and counterespionage to desrcribe non-spies that are used as a means to an end. Most assets don't even know they are being used and they don't know that the agents that are manipulating them are anything other than what they are pretending to be. What's more likely to have happened is clandestine Thalmor agents put the idea in his head that he should include the open worship of Talos as one of his terms for retaking the Markarth. The open worship of Talos in Markarth, however brief it might have been, was all the pretext the Thalmor needed to demand the right to setup a Justiciar's HQ in Markarth and patrol the land to enforce the White-Gold Concordat after such an egregious breach of its terms. This is probably what the dossier is reffering to when it states that the "Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim."

This is true. And this is actually something I should have put across more clearly, but it's getting late and I'm tired. I don't necessarily think that they sat him down somewhere and outright told him. I think that he could have been lead to believe things, as you're suggesting, which inevitably amounted to the same end. "Contact" can mean different things. The movie Munich comes to mind for me.

 

[Ozan]

Evil is a matter of circumstance. Ozan does not necessarily consider the Stormcloak as good... but to Ozan, the Legion is mostly evil as is the Empire which wields it.

Ozan wishes no offense as he knows some view him as good and others as evil. The perception and circumstance of certain situations. All are inherently born good but soon develop into whomever they must be, through the mentioned perception and circumstance. But, always in one's own eyes are they good with the exception of some who openly admit to their horrid deed. In the eyes of the others, it wanes and weakens.

This is not a view solely for individuals but for groups, factions, and even nations. The Empire is perceived as good by they who are comfortable. However... what nation would allow a loss of territory without struggle. The Dominion claimed the forests of Valenwood... unopposed by the Empire. Elsweyr was fooled, the Colovian not even trying to deny it.. Hammerfell was sold to the Aldmeri, yet they struggle without Colovian aid. Orsinium was disolved for convenience. The Argonian conquered Morrowind, THE FILTHY ARGONIAN, because the Empire stops caring. Deny they weaken all one desires, but not even the Colovian cares for the Colovian.

Why does the Colovian care about Skyrim? They gave away everything else, what makes Skyrim special?

Nothing. It is only because the locals wish to leave on their own terms.

Tell Khajiit who was raised in the Aldmeri Dominion that one's own nation is evil for wanting to absolutely govern themselves. Many Elf and Khajiit think the Aldmeri are good... What of the Stormcloak and Colovian? They view the Elf type as evil... But the Colovian allowed this to happen.

Who is more delusional? Colovian or Aldmeri?

 

[Moris]

Oh Gods, I know it really just made me love his character more though especially with how ironic it was. But no more, I still haven't finished the series because Netflix doesn't show every episode. The least season being the most important one where the episode of them arriving towards Earth and discovering it's destruction being missing. I want to get the season DVDs for it so bad though. I absolutely love that show and every character on it.

I want to reply to you (I agree completely) but I will no doubt get an off-topic rating from a user who is currently trawling the forum and assigning such.

As to the current topic at hand, we do indeed bring our previous experiences to hand when evaluating the characters and their motivations, whether that be the voice acting (Tullius in BG or Vladimir Kulich in 13th warrior), as well as our experiences playing previous games.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

you bastards it's not even off topic. the reason why this thread is so long is because of you dunderheads blabbering on about random stuff. Oh and BTW i think you should join the stormcloaks. because they're cool.

We've contributed far more on this thread with more articulate and sophisicated replies to the topic than even needs be. If you're going to abuse the rating system and then insult us after, then leave.

 

[Solus]

We've contributed far more on this thread with more articulate and sophisicated replies to the topic than even needs be. If you're going to abuse the rating system and then insult us after, then leave.

Me? Abuse the rating system? You have done far more "abusing" than I.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Me? Abuse the rating system? You have done far more "abusing" than I.

How so? Were you not being off topic, ranting, and being optimistic?

 

[Moris]

Me? Abuse the rating system? You have done far more "abusing" than I.

Grogmar and I disagree on almost everything, rather passionately.

Congratulations for giving us something we can agree upon without reservation.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

I think you lack the amount of knowledge of: This is the f***ing internet.

Solus your ratings scale is starting to look like the Italian flag, keep it up bro.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

At least im not afraid of getting a rad rating for expressing my thoughts. You should look up the nobel peace prize winner from china

Everybody make sure Solus gets 5 or 6 neutral ratings...

Operation: Italian Flag is now in effect.

Just a quick tip: be sure to capitalize the 'C' in China, countries of the world are always capitalized for formality. I believe Nobel Peace Price is capitalized as well, because it is an award.

I'm only here to help.

 

[Raijin]

Raijin, I've explained to you exactly how Ulfric is involved. You choose not to listen. Arguing with you is futile as this is litterly something you've tried arguing already months before with the same responses by other people.

So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh? Since when is it the Thalmor responsibility to enforce Imperial law? Oh right! The Empire granted them permission to root out Talos worshipers. Yeah Ulfric is a very bad and evil man for wanting to secede from the Empire and fighting to restore the rights of his people to openly worship Talos.

Read my signature quotes for the rest

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Idiot. Didn't you read my earlier post? or need i remind you of how this is the internet, and i dont need some acne-infested teen tell me how to do things. people would not have gotten far in this world if they always followed the rules. So go to bed, i believe you bedtime has long passed.

This is the internet?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh? Since when is it the Thalmor responsibility to enforce Imperial law? Oh right! The Empire granted them permission to root out Talos worshipers. Yeah Ulfric is a very bad and evil man for wanting to secede from the Empire and fighting to restore the rights of his people to openly worship Talos.

Read my signature quotes for the rest

I've only been telling you what's presented to us. I have not the slightest clue what you're talking about. You seem to argue in circles and ignore critical evidence provided by me and numerous others. I'm done arguing the matter as someone far more interesting is lurking around.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

Let me retort by doing a quick breakdown of this post.

Idiot.

You start off by calling me an idiot, it's nice to know your getting the hang of capitalization, grammar is a useful tool. As for the insult, I've been taught to ignore ignorance.

Didn't you read my earlier post? or need i remind you of how this is the internet,

Yes sir, I did read your previous post, and I am quite aware that this is in fact the internet. One could argue you're being quite hypocritical with that statement, as you seem to be acting like a blabbing idiot with a short temper and an even shorter attention span, giving people wrongful insults and negative votes out of spite.

and i dont need some acne-infested teen tell me how to do things.

This last part was just a shot in the dark, you got the teen right, but acne is incorrect, I'll show you my face in a minute - Secondly, I didn't tell you to do anything. I simply made an observation that your number of positive, neutral, and negative votes closely resembled the flag of the country Italy (notice the capitalization I used for Italy? This is because it is a country, I taught you this.) I just gave you a few reminders on your grammar being off. I'll be honest, there was the slightest hint of sarcasm in that post, but I hope you'll forgive me.

people would not have gotten far in this world if they always followed the rules. So go to bed, i believe you bedtime has long passed.

Not sure where you were going with that statement, I don't know if that was an excuse for your rather reckless behavior... but as for it being past my bedtime, my mother always said I can stay up late if I get my homework done, but thank you for caring about my personal health.

Here's my picture by the way - notice the nonexistent acne, I am pretty tired though, you were right about it being late.

 

[Raijin]

What the heck have I been missing out on?!?!?!?!

I've only been telling you what's presented to us. I have not the slightest clue what you're talking about. You seem to argue in circles and ignore critical evidence provided by me and numerous others. I'm done arguing the matter as someone far more interesting is lurking around.

And I'm going on by what I was told by the Thalmor Justiciars in the game.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

What the heck have I been missing out on?!?!?!?!



And I'm going on by what I was told by the Thalmor Justiciars in the game.

Which refutes nothing that I've said. Like I said, you argue in circles.

 

[Raijin]

Which refutes nothing that I've said. Like I said, you argue in circles.

I agree debating here is like arguing in circles At least we can agree with something, right?