Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Here's an intriguing, likely controversial question: could there be room to believe that maybe, just maybe, the Thalmor tipped Ulfric off about the impending restriction to open worship and that's why he demanded it before it had been outlawed*? The more I re-read the Thalmor Dossier, the more my paranoid mind is stopping over this section:

After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

They were in "contact" with him after the war, after his initial capture and torture. They were "talking" to him, in some sort of dialogue with him. About what, no one seems to know precisely. Then, they say the Markarth affair was useful to their overall goals. While that in itself is not admission that they impressed upon him the looming outlawing of Talos worship, that aspect of the Concordat had been seen before, when they first came to the Empire in 171 making their demands that were rejected by Mede then. It was an end they already sought to achieve.

So, is it not possible that they intervened to "inform" him of the impending threat to Talos worship and that's why he makes that a demand when by all accounts it wasn't necessary yet? Based on the date information we DO have, of course.

*ETA: Disregard the stricken portions on account of HERP DERP due to being sick and overtired. It would appear from the dates that Ulfric made his demands in spite of the Concordat, rather than from ignorance of its signature in 175. I still think that there could have been some degree of Thalmor "urging" for him to demand such a thing, contact that could have come in different and altogether unexpected packages. It's interesting to consider.

 

[Moris]

Here's an intriguing, likely controversial question: could there be room to believe that maybe, just maybe, the Thalmor tipped Ulfric off about the impending restriction to open worship and that's why he demanded it before it had been outlawed? The more I re-read the Thalmor Dossier, the more my paranoid mind is stopping over this section:



They were in "contact" with him after the war, after his initial capture and torture. They were talking to him. About what, no one seems to know precisely. Then, they say the Markarth affair was useful to their overall goals. While that in itself is not admission that they impressed upon him the looming outlawing of Talos worship, that aspect of the Concordat had been seen before, when they first came to the Empire in 171 making their demands that were rejected by Mede then. It was an end they already sought to achieve.

So, is it not possible that they intervened to "inform" him of the impending threat to Talos worship and that's why he makes that a demand when by all accounts it wasn't necessary yet? Based on the date information we DO have, of course.

Much simpler, though, to assume that he could have guessed of the threat to Talos worship since that was already among the demands which Titus Mede II rejected intially, before the war.

Was it?

*looking*

Though guessing the outcome of a treaty and basing your attack on a city on promises regarding such are not the same as KNOWING for sure what you are fighting for and what you are supposed to receive in reward.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Much simpler, though, to assume that he could have guessed of the threat to Talos worship since that was already among the demands which Titus Mede II rejected intially, before the war.

Was it?

*looking*

Though guessing the outcome of a treaty and basing your attack on a city on promises regarding such are not the same as KNOWING for sure what you are fighting for and what you are supposed to receive in reward.

That's quite likely as well, given that yes, that aspect of the treaty had been seen before. It was part of the original terms of the first document in 171.

It's entirely possible (in my mind) that Thalmor agents would more readily know of the diplomatic situation in Cyrodiil and be quicker to reach their "target", perhaps much quicker than the Legions' messengers, all things considered.

I dunno, I could be way off the mark, but something about those lines in the Dossier just doesn't sit right with me. At all.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Here's an intriguing, likely controversial question: could there be room to believe that maybe, just maybe, the Thalmor tipped Ulfric off about the impending restriction to open worship and that's why he demanded it before it had been outlawed? The more I re-read the Thalmor Dossier, the more my paranoid mind is stopping over this section:



They were in "contact" with him after the war, after his initial capture and torture. They were talking to him. About what, no one seems to know precisely. Then, they say the Markarth affair was useful to their overall goals. While that in itself is not admission that they impressed upon him the looming outlawing of Talos worship, that aspect of the Concordat had been seen before, when they first came to the Empire in 171 making their demands that were rejected by Mede then. It was an end they already sought to achieve.

So, is it not possible that they intervened to "inform" him of the impending threat to Talos worship and that's why he makes that a demand when by all accounts it wasn't necessary yet? Based on the date information we DO have, of course.

He was only imprisoned after the Markarth incident though which after years later he created his small lil band of stormies and began demanding free worship of Talos. Later after that he killed the High King and started the Civil War. He never had any knowledge of the banning of Talos prior to the W.G.C, but I do believe the Thalmor manipulated him into making the choices he's made to help weaken the Empire. As also suggested in their dossier report on him.

 

[Moris]

That's quite likely as well, given that yes, that aspect of the treaty had been seen before. It was part of the original terms of the first document in 171.

It's entirely possible (in my mind) that Thalmor agents would know of the diplomatic situation in Cyrodiil and be quick to reach their "target", perhaps much quicker than the Legions' messengers. all things considered.

I dunno, I could be way off the mark, but something about those lines in the Dossier just don't sit right with me. At all.

Well, the dosier is very intriguing. Yes. And it is not written, one assumes, for the purpose of propaganda or for public consumption of any sort, which gives it added weight. Though it may have been written, as any such report to one's boss, to exaggerate the utility of Ulfric as an asset.

It deserves deep investigation and pondering. Certainly.

 

[Docta Corvina]

He was only imprisoned after the Markarth incident though which after years later he created his small lil band of stormies and began demanding free worship of Talos. Later after that he killed the High King and started the Civil War. He never had any knowledge of the banning of Talos prior to the W.G.C, but I do believe the Thalmor manipulated him into making the choices he's made to help weaken the Empire. As also suggested in their dossier report on him.

Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

This says he was taken as a prisoner of war though, and interrogated by them. Then released. He was imprisoned later on following the Markarth Incident. What I was referring to was his capture by the Thalmor during the Great War, then the time in which they re-establish "contact" with him. The Markarth stuff follows after that, though I admit we don't have hard dates here in this document.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Well, the dosier is very intriguing. Yes. And it is not written, one assumes, for the purpose of propaganda or for public consumption of any sort, which gives it added weight. Though it may have been written, as any such report to one's boss, to exaggerate the utility of Ulfric as an asset.

It deserves deep investigation and pondering. Certainly.

The way he's described, I'd say he was manipulated into becoming a sleeper agent for the Thalmor.

 

[Moris]

The way he's described, I'd say he was manipulated into becoming a sleeper agent for the Thalmor.

Absolutely not consciously.

Sleeper agents know who they work for.

I find it impossible to believe that Ulfric Stormcloak is an agent for the Thalmor and consciously acting on their behalf. I'd sooner believe that of Tullius, and I'd believe it of Tullius essentially... um... never.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

This says he was taken as a prisoner of war though, and interrogated by them. Then released. He was imprisoned later on following the Markarth Incident. What I was referring to was his capture by the Thalmor during the Great War, then the time in which they re-establish "contact" with him. The Markarth stuff follows after that, though I admit we don't have hard dates here in this document.

You're right, being on the Xbox leaves me careless to double checking myself. But I don't believe he ever started his demand for Talos till after the Markarth Incident.

 

[Docta Corvina]

If anything, the manipulation that seems evident here is another case for Ulfric's tragic qualities. It's fascinating that a document such as the Dossier on him was included. It really throws another dimension onto the whole thing.

 

[Moris]

If anything, the manipulation that seems evident here is another case for Ulfric's tragic qualities. It's fascinating that a document such as the Dossier on him was included. It really throws another dimension onto the whole thing.

Yes, it does. Part of the reason that those who simply dismiss him as a "racist asshole", I think, may be missing a fairly large subplot.

 

[Docta Corvina]

You're right, being on the Xbox leaves me careless to double checking myself. But I don't believe he ever started his demand for Talos till after the Markarth Incident.

No worries, my friend. I'm getting sleepy now myself, so I'm having to double and triple check everything.

I agree that the Markarth episode seems to have been the first time he explicitly made demands for open Talos worship. But I don't think he was unaware of the initial treaty's terms, which included that very clause. What I think could have happened is that the Thalmor used that knowledge of such a real threat as leverage, and it's why we see him make that demand in 176. Really, whether he and Igmund knew of the Concordat's signing or not, I could see him making that demand regardless. He's about stubborn enough.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Absolutely not consciously.

Sleeper agents know who they work for.

I find it impossible to believe that Ulfric Stormcloak is an agent for the Thalmor and consciously acting on their behalf. I'd sooner believe that of Tullius, and I'd believe it of Tullius essentially... um... never.

That's what I mean by sleeper agent. He isn't concious that he is being manipulated into doing what the Thalmor want. There's actually a book that involves people who are sleeper agents that are only aware of their role as sleeper agents under the government with some key words, I can't remember the name though.

 

[Moris]

No worries, my friend. I'm getting sleepy now myself, so I'm having to double and triple check everything.

I agree that the Markarth episode seems to have been the first time he explicitly made demands for open Talos worship. But I don't think he was unaware of the initial treaty's terms, which included that very clause. What I think could have happened is that the Thalmor used that knowledge of such a real threat as leverage, and it's why we see him make that demand in 176. Really, whether he and Igmund knew of the Concordat's signing or not, I could see him making that demand regardless. He's about stubborn enough.

No more stubborn than his Imperial counterparts, surely.

Tullius is a stubborn man. It takes the recapture of Windhelm and the defeat of Ulfric before he will admit to the positive aspects of Nord qualities.

(I need to do a portrait of Tullius, I think! I will learn his appeal in gazing at his face, perhaps. )

 

[Docta Corvina]

Yes, it does. Part of the reason that those who simply dismiss him as a "racist asshole", I think, may be missing a fairly large subplot.

I agree, I've always found him to be fascinating and I always make sure I state as much in these threads. At his most fundamental, he's a Great War veteran with a serious bone to pick. And I find that intriguing because I have a few of my own in my ongoing writing project.

There is more to him than the Gray Quarter, or the murder/killing of Torygg, or even his desire for a lasting legacy. It's just that for many, the composite comes out more negative than positive, as fascinating as he himself may be. He's a good villain.

 

[Solus]

it should be "which one", not "what one". I think Stormcloaks because they are badass viking warriors.

 

[Moris]

He's a good villain.

A good hero too, with an inevitably tragic end.

Depending, of course, on your view and you played the game.

It will be interesting nevertheless to see how Bethesda handles things, don't you think?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

That's what I mean by sleeper agent. He isn't concious that he is being manipulated into doing what the Thalmor want. There's actually a book that involves people who are sleeper agents that are only aware of their role as sleeper agents under the government with some key words, I can't remember the name though.

I remember what it is now, it was a show called Battle Star Galactia (Colonel Tai being Tullius, btw) where Cylons would send human replicas of members on the fleet to spy on them. The Cylons however not knowing of their intended purpose, or that they were even robots, would sometimes involuntarily disrupt progress on the fleet. Only being concious of their true forms with some key words.

I know this isn't the exact situation with Ulfric, but it's where the idea was derived from.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

No worries, my friend. I'm getting sleepy now myself, so I'm having to double and triple check everything.

Me too. I find myself typing slower and slower with each post. I can't believe we've been able to go at this for so long.

 

[Dagmar]

Here's an intriguing, likely controversial question: could there be room to believe that maybe, just maybe, the Thalmor tipped Ulfric off about the impending restriction to open worship and that's why he demanded it before it had been outlawed?

The Thalmor didn't have to tip him off because it wasn't an impending restriction, it was already in effect. The White-Gold Concordat was signed in 4E 175. Ulfric's campaign to retake the Reach was in 4E 176. The worship of Talos was already in effect throughout the Empire. The fact that Ulfric set forth the open worship of Talos as one of his conditions for recapturing Markarth to Igmund and that he denied entry into the city by the Imperial Legion until it acceded to the same is evidence of the fact that he was well aware of this.

They were in "contact" with him after the war, after his initial capture and torture. They were "talking" to him, in some sort of dialogue with him.

Contact doesn't necessarily mean actual conversation with him and to the extent it does it doesn't mean in a form where Uflric is even aware with whom he is dealing. The term asset is used in espionage and counterespionage to desrcribe non-spies that are used as a means to an end. Most assets don't even know they are being used and they don't know that the agents that are manipulating them are anything other than what they are pretending to be. What's more likely to have happened is clandestine Thalmor agents put the idea in his head that he should include the open worship of Talos as one of his terms for retaking the Markarth. The open worship of Talos in Markarth, however brief it might have been, was all the pretext the Thalmor needed to demand the right to setup a Justiciar's HQ in Markarth and patrol the land to enforce the White-Gold Concordat after such an egregious breach of its terms. This is probably what the dossier is reffering to when it states that the "Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim."