J
Jeremius
Guest
Cant fault him for that. IF I was Ulfric I would hate them too for what they did to me.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Cant fault him for that. IF I was Ulfric I would hate them too for what they did to me.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
I fully agree, however I would like to state that the examples that I chose were chosen since they are popular arguments used in this thread. My personal belief is that Ulfric is poor political leader, but definitely a military leader to be noted. He is a leader who is at his prime in battle, not politics. He is too emotional to be an effective ruler in my opinion. If I wanted a man to lead my men into battle I would choose Ulfric, if I wanted a politician I would choose Brunwulf. Each have their perks, each has their drawbacks.
J
Jeremius
Guest
you have me there, but at this time, I think Ulfric would be fine since war is coming.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
I would not make Ulfric High King, I would find someone better suited then point at Ulfric and say "You are in charge of kicking Dominion ass."
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
So basically, he could just go to the court wizard store and buy a new model.
In all seriousness, I really am struggling to understand your issue with Balgruuf for not wanting Farengar to go barreling into the fray. He knows what the mage is like, aside from his arrogance. He's overly inquisitive and apparently oblivious to danger when it comes to something that fascinates him. If anything, Balgruuf didn't want to potentially escalate an already tense and deadly situation by having his court wizard scampering about trying to "collect samples" while the guards and Irileth are trying to stop it from roasting not only them but the city. That actually seems...responsible.
I know you just don't care much for Balgruuf, which is fine, but it really seems to me like you're grasping at reasons for that dislike. He's really one of the least objectionable Jarls on almost all grounds - your profound dislike of him is mind-boggling to me personally. But, hey...to each his own. I find other things done by other Jarls to be far more offensive and problematic.
Okay, so not the worst but how about one of the worst? If what amounts to the maintenance of an apartheid system isn't enough to warrant him being among the worst, then that requires rationalizing and allowing for such a thing to be considered acceptable to some degree. Anyone who finds it straight up unacceptable would grant that it makes Ulfric at least one of the worst.
You seem to be loathe to do that.You did say that Ulfric is one of the worst, and so I had to remind you just what Igmund is doing in his hold
Actually, Raijin, it's really not ignorant or close minded at all. I have evaluated Ulfric in the same way that I have evaluated the other Jarls thus far. And basic logic holds that just because Person B may also be doing something bad or distasteful, it does not cancel out or mitigate the misdeeds of Person A. The fact that you keep bringing up Igmund whenever Ulfric's issues are raised tells me two things: yes, you hate Igmund and think he's worthless, and that you somehow think that Ulfric isn't as much to blame for his problems or shouldn't be held to much account for them - simply because Igmund may also be an asshole. That strikes me as something like comparing dictators or world atrocities or other Bad Things for the sake of whitewashing one or the other - I see no use in it. In fact, it seems rather silly. Both men as Jarls have things they should answer for. Really, almost all of the Jarls do to some extent. But Ulfric's track record isn't particularly golden, to say the least. I don’t like many of the activities of some of the Jarls. But the fact is Windhelm is a uniquely bleak situation and Ulfric is top dog there. Thus he gets the bill for it.
In summation: one can argue that Igmund is a bad Jarl and that in no way takes away from the fact Ulfric is easily seen as one as well. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I'm glad you brought up blood on one's hands! I know some people have argued that it's partly shared blood, regarding the "deal" made with Igmund to repel the Forsworn which ended up in an apparently especially heinous bloodbath that affected even those who could not defend themselves. All of this of course is not even mentioning the tragic current civil warfare that's tearing apart the populace of the province and only helping the Thalmor in both the short and long-term.
As for Ulfric's "valid reason" for being a lackluster Jarl - I don't even need to touch the reasons why that's disturbing when it comes to his belligerence and the ensuing civil war which has killed an untold number of his own people across Skyrim. But even from a theoretical standpoint, that simply doesn't wash. A truly good leader shows the ability to balance his responsibilities. We certainly wouldn't be okay with a president who only managed his people well and took note of their plight during peace time, would we? Just because he's consumed with a war he lobbied for (he himself admits that killing Torygg was tactical in that process) does not in any way give him a free pass at fulfilling all of his duties – and doing so “sloppily” as you put it. If he’d rather be a soldier, then he should be a soldier. But if he can’t also attentively carry out his most basic roles, then perhaps he shouldn’t have bitten off more than he could chew. There’s really no excuse.
And yes, Ulfric is most definitely human. And that's why his blinding pride and egocentrism are his tragic flaws.
As azali100 pointed out, you're using mechanical facets of the game to argue this particular point and it's not doing your contention any favors. The sizes of cities and the number of NPCs in them are obviously greatly reduced in scale. I highly doubt that every last inch of Windhelm is truly inhabited but even if that's the case, the fact is that the neighborhood the Dark Elves are relegated to is a slum and the Dunmer are not granted the same opportunities as Nords. There's more to it than simply an issue of physical space. If the resources and finances were available to them, their environment would reflect that. Just about nobody wants to live in squalor.
As for Brunwulf, it is your assumption that he's flat out lying and doesn't mean what he says when it comes to the plight of the non-Nord races. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. After he takes power, we have testimony from various NPCs about the state of things and how their status quo is improving. Yes, Brunwulf states that for now, the Argonians must remain outside the city, most likely indeed for their own safety. If they were suddenly brought in, right after the death of Ulfric, you think the die-hards would take kindly to that? He's expressing fear of violent reactions from the more insular natives, and that is forethought that more leaders need. He's acting responsibly and wisely. He says change will take time, but he's ready to see it through. If he were lying, we wouldn't have the testimony we have to the contrary. I highly doubt that if they felt double-crossed or bait-and-switched, the Dunmer wouldn't speak up about it to you - just like they share their grievances while Ulfric is still alive.
Bottom line is that my statements about Ulfric come directly from my engagement with him, and my observations of him and the situation/environment he currently commands (and has long commanded).
It's your prerogative to maintain that Ulfric is not the worst or even among the worst - just as it's mine to feel that he is. And I have arrived at that conclusion based on a number of observable factors. If the same things don't trouble you, then we are officially at an impasse. But I think we somehow always knew that and just like rattling on at this point.
True. Perhaps Penelope can open my ways so I can see the light, eh? Oh and off topic question... Did you create Pen as a dedication to Penelope Cruz by any chance?I can see the resemblance
LOL, my Penelope is based on my Penelope.
Really though, I wished to base her partly on the ancient Greek mythological character, the wife of Odysseus - the woman from whom she gets her name, of course. There are implications in her name's meaning, but those will be revealed in my story. As for her "showing you the light", I have my sincerest doubts that it'll ever happen. I'll never be brought around to the other side myself, so I don't really expect others to be swayed. I just like debating things that capture my interest.
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
Both of these deserve one simple reply.
So basically, he could just go to the court wizard store and buy a new model.
In all seriousness, I really am struggling to understand your issue with Balgruuf for not wanting Farengar to go barreling into the fray. He knows what the mage is like, aside from his arrogance. He's overly inquisitive and apparently oblivious to danger when it comes to something that fascinates him. If anything, Balgruuf didn't want to potentially escalate an already tense and deadly situation by having his court wizard scampering about trying to "collect samples" while the guards and Irileth are trying to stop it from roasting not only them but the city. That actually seems...responsible.
I know you just don't care much for Balgruuf, which is fine, but it really seems to me like you're grasping at reasons for that dislike. He's really one of the least objectionable Jarls on almost all grounds - your profound dislike of him is mind-boggling to me personally. But, hey...to each his own. I find other things done by other Jarls to be far more offensive and problematic.
Okay, so not the worst but how about one of the worst? If what amounts to the maintenance of an apartheid system isn't enough to warrant him being among the worst, then that requires rationalizing and allowing for such a thing to be considered acceptable to some degree. Anyone who finds it straight up unacceptable would grant that it makes Ulfric at least one of the worst.
Actually, Raijin, it's really not ignorant or close minded at all. I have evaluated Ulfric in the same way that I have evaluated the other Jarls thus far. And basic logic holds that just because Person B may also be doing something bad or distasteful, it does not cancel out or mitigate the misdeeds of Person A. The fact that you keep bringing up Igmund whenever Ulfric's issues are raised tells me two things: yes, you hate Igmund and think he's worthless, and that you somehow think that Ulfric isn't as much to blame for his problems or shouldn't be held to much account for them - simply because Igmund may also be an asshole. That strikes me as something like comparing dictators or world atrocities or other Bad Things for the sake of whitewashing one or the other - I see no use in it. In fact, it seems rather silly. Both men as Jarls have things they should answer for. Really, almost all of the Jarls do to some extent. But Ulfric's track record isn't particularly golden, to say the least. I don’t like many of the activities of some of the Jarls. But the fact is Windhelm is a uniquely bleak situation and Ulfric is top dog there. Thus he gets the bill for it.
In summation: one can argue that Igmund is a bad Jarl and that in no way takes away from the fact Ulfric is easily seen as one as well. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I'm glad you brought up blood on one's hands! I know some people have argued that it's partly shared blood, regarding the "deal" made with Igmund to repel the Forsworn which ended up in an apparently especially heinous bloodbath that affected even those who could not defend themselves. All of this of course is not even mentioning the tragic current civil warfare that's tearing apart the populace of the province and only helping the Thalmor in both the short and long-term.
As for Ulfric's "valid reason" for being a lackluster Jarl - I don't even need to touch the reasons why that's disturbing when it comes to his belligerence and the ensuing civil war which has killed an untold number of his own people across Skyrim. But even from a theoretical standpoint, that simply doesn't wash. A truly good leader shows the ability to balance his responsibilities. We certainly wouldn't be okay with a president who only managed his people well and took note of their plight during peace time, would we? Just because he's consumed with a war he lobbied for (he himself admits that killing Torygg was tactical in that process) does not in any way give him a free pass at fulfilling all of his duties – and doing so “sloppily” as you put it. If he’d rather be a soldier, then he should be a soldier. But if he can’t also attentively carry out his most basic roles, then perhaps he shouldn’t have bitten off more than he could chew. There’s really no excuse.
And yes, Ulfric is most definitely human. And that's why his blinding pride and egocentrism are his tragic flaws.
As azali100 pointed out, you're using mechanical facets of the game to argue this particular point and it's not doing your contention any favors. The sizes of cities and the number of NPCs in them are obviously greatly reduced in scale. I highly doubt that every last inch of Windhelm is truly inhabited but even if that's the case, the fact is that the neighborhood the Dark Elves are relegated to is a slum and the Dunmer are not granted the same opportunities as Nords. There's more to it than simply an issue of physical space. If the resources and finances were available to them, their environment would reflect that. Just about nobody wants to live in squalor.
As for Brunwulf, it is your assumption that he's flat out lying and doesn't mean what he says when it comes to the plight of the non-Nord races. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. After he takes power, we have testimony from various NPCs about the state of things and how their status quo is improving. Yes, Brunwulf states that for now, the Argonians must remain outside the city, most likely indeed for their own safety. If they were suddenly brought in, right after the death of Ulfric, you think the die-hards would take kindly to that? He's expressing fear of violent reactions from the more insular natives, and that is forethought that more leaders need. He's acting responsibly and wisely. He says change will take time, but he's ready to see it through. If he were lying, we wouldn't have the testimony we have to the contrary. I highly doubt that if they felt double-crossed or bait-and-switched, the Dunmer wouldn't speak up about it to you - just like they share their grievances while Ulfric is still alive.
Bottom line is that my statements about Ulfric come directly from my engagement with him, and my observations of him and the situation/environment he currently commands (and has long commanded).
It's your prerogative to maintain that Ulfric is not the worst or even among the worst - just as it's mine to feel that he is. And I have arrived at that conclusion based on a number of observable factors. If the same things don't trouble you, then we are officially at an impasse. But I think we somehow always knew that and just like rattling on at this point.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
The segregation of Dunmer is unique to Windhelm.The Decree of the Monument at Refugee's Rest in Eastmarch said:
Yes it does. You seem to be completely incapable of understanding what racism is in as much as it's defined by deeds far more than words, particularly when it defines how one governs, and that the person who owns the policy is racist. FDR was indeed very much a racist. Aside from the blatant racism of his internment policy against citizens of the United States based solely on their race, he also didn't think much of black people as he explicitly excluded the black athletes and only invited the white athletes from the 1936 U.S. Olympic team to the White House. Not even the famous Jesse Owens, who won 4 gold medals for the United States was allowed to attend. His inaction towards the plight of the Jews in Europe, who his administration knew were being subject to genocide, is also a subject of heated debate. He appointed a former member of the Klu Klux Klan to the Supreme Court (Hugo Black), and one can find numerous quotes by the man that were racist in nature ranging from opposition to interracial marriage to characterizing Italians as a a bunch of opera singers. Hell yes the man was racist and so is Ulfric.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
Well then, it seems I was off by about 100 years. The Dunmer have been in Skyrim for about 200 years.
Well said, and I being from Canada am used to the shame of the racist actions of my own government who had segregated Native American peoples for decades, and that was during peacetime. We even went as far as pulling the children from their families and putting them in specialized school to "beat the indian out of them". Our racism went as far as forbidding anyone with even the smallest amount of Native American heritage from voting until 1960 unless they surrendered their heritage first. Our government recently admitted that this was a racist action and apologized officially, even if the politicians who performed these actions are no longer in parliament. Even the world famous David Suzuki was prosecuted against by my own government during World War II when we segregated Japanese Canadian's and had them live in cold mountain towns after seizing all their property. The Canadian Government also admitted that was wrong. So to get to my point, racism is racism, whether it's by words, actions, or political policy. War time is no exception, as my own government, who committed racist policy during a war, admitted. Racism is racism. End of story.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Pretty much this. And it's what blows my mind when I step into this thread see what appears to me like people basically trying to excuse it by saying that Ulfric simply has other, more pressing priorities.
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
If UfLic has other pressing matters to attend to, then he needs to either stop being Jarl and focus all his time on the war efforts. Or, actually be a Jarl and do his damn job and end the war.
End of.
End of.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
You are basing this on the fact that the Stormcloaks are native nords? So is much of the legion.
Solus
Member
No, im just saying that you all think that the Stormcloaks have absolutely no chance at beating the Thalmor after you beat the Empire.
Crooksin
Glue Sniffer
Considering that the Stormcloaks are having trouble with the Empire who's strength is 1 legion and at the maximum 2 AND the Thalmor were able to completely defeat the Empire's entire army, not just 1 or 2 legions, I think that is a logical conclusion
Solus
Member
Actually, the Stormcloaks and the Imperials are about the same strength. And besides, if you beat the Empire, the setting will just be like the Revolutionary war.
Crooksin
Glue Sniffer
In Skyrim, yes, maybe but I would seriously doubt they were equal because the Empire in Skyrim are stretched so thin yet manage to hold back the Stormcloak force entirely. But you seem to think the entirety of the Empire's army is in Skyrim.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
THIS. The Legion presence in Skyrim is but a portion. Tullius says he's apparently not getting reinforcements, which would logically follow that the vastly greater portion of Imperial forces is still back home. Hence the heavily local recruiting for the counter-rebellion efforts.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
They don't, the Aldmeri Dominion brought the entire Empire to it's knees and captured the capital, destroyed the bulk of the Legion, and is still weakening the Empire which is made up of multiple fairly powerful provinces. The Thalmor are only a small faction of the Dominion, and think about how many of them there are. If huge ass armies couldn't defeat the Dominion, then what chance do the Stormcloaks have for victory alone without any support? Very little. The Dominion is as powerful as the Empire as a whole. I don't give Skyrim much of a chance to survive alone. Warriors win battle, tacticians win wars, and any tactician deserving of the term would know that it takes more than guerilla tactics to take on an infinitely larger force without allies to back you up.
