Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.

Hammerfell had it easy? They devastated the southern areas of their province. Skyrim isn't having a Civil War against the Empire, Ulfric isn't Skyrim. There isn't this "Skyrim vs Cyrodiil" thing going on.

I can't believe you can't see a difference between the Hammerfell situation and the Stormcloaks. Hammerfell had united, Crowns and Forebears had settled their differences. It would only be a comparison if the Crowns had rejected the treaty and fought on alone while the Forebears agreed to the White-Gold Concordat.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war

They didn't even win. The province was devastated enough that both sides agreed to a treaty that saw Dominion forces leave Hammerfell and just go back into Valenwood to prepare for round two. Merely pushing out the Aldmeri isn't victory. The war won't end, it hasn't truly ended, it's on pause. The only way to win the war is to completely destroy the Aldmeri Dominion and cut off their head in Summerset Isle.

 

[LegateFasendil]

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war, Skyeim kept it and had no serious fighting until Ulfric. bad comparison.

Ahhh there we are.

Yeah but you're looking at only one comparison.

That's right, Hammerfell won the war but they also left the Empire amicably, which enabled them to win. Skyrim because of Ulfric was torn away by force.

Your move.

That is the only comparison that can be made. Nothing else from Hammerfell truly applies to Skyrim. Skyrim made one choice and nothing serious happened. going by history, Skyrim needs a babysitter to keep them in line.

Hmmm. At least your honest about the comparison. You are also right about the babysitter part.

No further questions.

 

[Ozan]

It doesn't matter, that's what people the want. The Empire was happy to let Morrowind/Hammerfell do as they please, but like I said before you've come to the realisation it's a mistake and you need provinces so you'd rather have a Civil War then let Skyrim rule them selves. Skyrim is already isolated.. You said it your self, no legions occupy Skyrim, just "poor auxillaries" so what benefits do you offer apart from xenephobic views that all Nords are lawless barbarians?

If it was what the people wanted, there wouldn't be a Civil War. The Empire lost their holdings in Morrowind during the Stormcrown Interregnum/Red Mountain disaster. Titus II released Hammerfell because they refused the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire was in no position to force the Redguards to accept peace. Morrowind suffers increased trading tax, they lost free trade when they went on their own.

It has nothing to do with "rather have a Civil War" it was Ulfric who set Skyrim down that path. Torygg was interested in hearing more about Ulfric's views of independence. Ulfric killing the High King and declaring war on the Western Holds in a move to kick out the Empire is hardly a diplomatic solution. It is Ulfric who keeps the Moot from meeting, so the Nords aren't even ruling themselves until Ulfric makes sure it is an easy win.

Skyrim isn't isolated, they're part of the Empire. Three united provinces, preparing for a second war with the Aldmeri Dominion. Stormcloak Skyrim is isolated, no allies and the Empire will most likely attack them. What are you even on about the Legions? I've said it myself that majority of the Legion is down in Cyrodiil preparing for round two with the Thalmor. The locally recruited auxiliaries are what is being used to try combat the rebellion. Titus II is keeping out the reinforcements. You honestly believe the people behind his death will want the Empire split in half? Vici's death is already framed on the Stormcloaks.

What benefits does the Empire offer Skyrim? Free trade, education, food, resources, military service for glory seeking Nords and Orcs wanting to explore the world or master their trade in smithing. Wealth for the Jarls to keep their cities in decent shape.

What do the Stormcloaks offer? Slavery, racial discrimination, xenophobic views to just worship Talos a bit louder? What happened to the Nords... They're turning more Imperial with all these visits to the temple. Last game they thought Imperials were uptight working and visiting the chapel always.

The whole "True Nords" thing the Stormcloaks go on about is really just another form of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

If this is the case, then Spain had no right to govern themselves prior to the Reconquista. For almost 800 years, Spain was not a unified nation with most of Iberia being taken by Muslim invaders. The reason why they couldn't kick them out sooner was because they were always waging wars amongst each other, but that's Feudal Europe for you when your vassals fight among themselves.

But, at 1942 when Iberia was finally in Christian hands, Spain and Portugal took it upon themselves to make fluffING EMPIRES THAT AFFECT OUR WORLD TODAY!!! It was great.

Comparing Tamriel to our world doesn't always work. Nords lorewise don't stay united for long, their conflicting nature ends up turning against them.

Now, you said there was a split in Skyrim... Right down the middle probably. Well, that isn't so bad. Sure, Skyrim has a history of fighting among themselves... But this is different.

Not really, this is the second time they're fighting against the Empire. Also the second time they're fighting for their independence. Stormcloaks are a Nord only focused movement.

Assume Ulfric and Tullius both die. The Jarls supporting Elisef (forgot how to spell her name) still support her. Anyone rising up in Ulfric's place would have to have a lot of his ideas just to keep the Jarls who had supported him to maintain the war, a war that is far easier without a competent strategist leading the enemy. If not Elisef will be made High Queen, probably unanimously.

But, being feudal, that doesn't mean half the Jarls won't petition her to break off from the Empire (something her husband would have done if Ulfric asked). So now, we deal with a lot of what ifs (a what if scenario I enjoy because Tullius isn't here to hold her hand). Feudalism is a curse, really.

Elisif isn't promised to be High Queen, she only has claim, same as the other Jarls. The Empire doesn't decide who becomes the next High King/Queen, the Moot decides. Ulfric was the one who wouldn't risk a Moot.

Tullius can be replaced easily, he himself even makes a comment in Season Unending that he would simply be recalled to Cyrodiil if he agreed to bad terms.

The Stormcloaks require Ulfric, they don't have anyone else really worthy to lead to them. The Jarls who support Ulfric, are very different minded. Laila doesn't have faith in Ulfric, Skald thinks Ulfric is the second coming of Talos, the Jarl in Winterhold seeks more authority for himself.

Ah, the quote trees how I've missed thee.

That being said, I think comparing Nords and their warlike nature can easily be compared with real events and nations. If you haven't noticed within the last 5000 years, people are assholes and like to wage war whenever they find a wrinkle in their undies.

That being said, I don't think I said anything about the Empire making the call as to who will be High Queen. Infact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Jarls who support her. Are you saying the Jarls (assuming Ulfric and Tullius are dead) won't support her simply because they've been backing the empire this entire time? Are you saying she's a bad monarch? My, what would Tullius say... assuming he was dead but somehow still alive to speak?

That being said, assuming Ulfric was dead as well and nobody was around to lead the Stormcloaks, you said yourself that any Jarl had the right to claim the position of High King. So, why not claim that position in Ulfric's name? They are Nords, afterall, a proud folk who tends to be warlike and stubborn. And even when Ulfric dies in game, the Stormcloaks are still around. So long as you have a group of people looking for a common goal, someone will lead them. For example, Adolf Hitler post WWI.

And considering all the Jarls had been replaced by Imperial puppets, then common birth would be even less an issue. In fact, it's probably safer if Ulfric lived and the war just lingered on. Stormcloaks would simply become akin to a terrorist group so common today. The IRA lasted for fluffing ever, how long do you think the Stormcloaks would last?

Finally, lets address the second time they fought the Empire... How long were they a part of the Empire the first time round? How about now? There has been a lot of time given to help assimilate, sort of like how the tribes of Antiquity Britain (back when they were barbarians) fought the Romans to no avail. After the fall of Rome, they took a lot of their culture and ways with them. Infact, I'm sure if Rome didn't fall but they were given a chance to stay with the Roman Empire, a lot of Briton folk would have wanted to remain Roman citizens. Of course, I'm sure more than a few would want to govern themselves too.

Thats human nature. Skyrim is the home of the Humans. The more you know.

 

[Jeremius]

SO? Hammerfell refused and won a war

They didn't even win. The province was devastated enough that both sides agreed to a treaty that saw Dominion forces leave Hammerfell and just go back into Valenwood to prepare for round two. Merely pushing out the Aldmeri isn't victory. The war won't end, it hasn't truly ended, it's on pause. The only way to win the war is to completely destroy the Aldmeri Dominion and cut off their head in Summerset Isle.

You know what I meant. They kept fighting and made the Dominion retreat, Skyrim chose to keep to the Empire and the WGC, with only minor issues as a result until the Nords who became the Stormcloaks chose to make the issue a big one.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That being said, I think comparing Nords and their warlike nature can easily be compared with real events and nations. If you haven't noticed within the last 5000 years, people are assholes and like to wage war whenever they find a wrinkle in their undies.

It doesn't compare, the Nords are warlike by culture. Their Gods fought wars against the elven Gods. You can't really translate our world into theirs, because it isn't our world. Nirn isn't Earth. They may have Norse traits, but they're only slightly based on them.

That being said, I don't think I said anything about the Empire making the call as to who will be High Queen. Infact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Jarls who support her. Are you saying the Jarls (assuming Ulfric and Tullius are dead) won't support her simply because they've been backing the empire this entire time? Are you saying she's a bad monarch? My, what would Tullius say... assuming he was dead but somehow still alive to speak?

The Jarls make no mention in supporting Elisif, they support the Empire. Same way certain Stormcloak Jarls support the Stormcloaks, not Ulfric himself. Elisif has much to learn, but she isn't leading Skyrim into war, or commanding soldiers. So even if she were to be High Queen she is fairly harmless, and she does care about her people.

That being said, assuming Ulfric was dead as well and nobody was around to lead the Stormcloaks, you said yourself that any Jarl had the right to claim the position of High King. So, why not claim that position in Ulfric's name?

Because you can't simply claim the throne in the name of a dead man, the Nords elect their Kings from the living. The claim that "Well I'll stand in for Ulfric, even though he's dead" wouldn't be valid. A Jarl can't claim another's deeds as his own. Should claim it in Ysgramor's name while you're at it.

They are Nords, afterall, a proud folk who tends to be warlike and stubborn. And even when Ulfric dies in game, the Stormcloaks are still around. So long as you have a group of people looking for a common goal, someone will lead them. For example, Adolf Hitler post WWI.

The Stormcloaks are still around, but without Ulfric's charisma and passion. They're not going to stay out in the wilderness, they're normal citizens. Most would return to their homes. But also the Legion plans on hunting them down if they don't lay down their weapons.

And considering all the Jarls had been replaced by Imperial puppets, then common birth would be even less an issue. In fact, it's probably safer if Ulfric lived and the war just lingered on. Stormcloaks would simply become akin to a terrorist group so common today. The IRA lasted for fluffing ever, how long do you think the Stormcloaks would last?

They're not all 'Imperial puppets' there are quite a few good Empire favored Jarls. What are you on about with common birth? Jarls selected on both sides aren't always from the Nobles.

Forsworn already take the terrorist group spot. The 'Stormcloaks' will last for awhile, the ideology won't simply die. Doesn't mean they'll be attacking villages and supply lines for years to come. There have been those with views similiar to the Stormcloaks in Skyrim for a thousand years.

Finally, lets address the second time they fought the Empire... How long were they a part of the Empire the first time round? How about now?

Over a hundred years the first time in the Third Empire. It doesn't matter how long they've been part of the Empire, they were part of the Cyrodilic Empire for 647 years.

There has been a lot of time given to help assimilate, sort of like how the tribes of Antiquity Britain (back when they were barbarians) fought the Romans to no avail. After the fall of Rome, they took a lot of their culture and ways with them. Infact, I'm sure if Rome didn't fall but they were given a chance to stay with the Roman Empire, a lot of Briton folk would have wanted to remain Roman citizens. Of course, I'm sure more than a few would want to govern themselves too.

Nords have been part of an Imperial Empire in total for 1281 years. They're still pretty Nordic, besides certain religious beliefs.

Thats human nature. Skyrim is the home of the Humans. The more you know.

Skyrim is home to people who if they're not attacking elves, they're killing each other. The Nords just want to smash.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You know what I meant. They kept fighting and made the Dominion retreat, Skyrim chose to keep to the Empire and the WGC, with only minor issues as a result until the Nords who became the Stormcloaks chose to make the issue a big one.

Redguards are tougher than the Nords. They made Tiber Septim sign the First Treaty of Stros M'kai after he had taken their province.

Nords are warlike, their culture is surrounded around deeds of glory and honor.

Redguards are warriors by their own society. Children are expected to grasp basic weaponry and combat ability, and only the strongest, fastest and smartest Redguards are accepted into the military. Rulers are expected to have detailed knowledge of strategy, formations and tactics.

The Redguards united, being able to fight the weakened Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill in Hammerfell isn't at all surprising, it's expected.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The video explains the history of the Redguards and Hammerfell, which included the situation with the Empire. The validation as of the accuracy on the video is pretty good. If were going to get down to business at least we can get an understanding of the history.

That video was a load of bullplops. You can tell the obvious bias and misinformation easily.

"Hammerfell was losing land under Imperial rule..." I like how he 'forgets' the fact that the Empire forced the Nords to return the land they stole from the Redguards.

His facts about the Great War... The Dominion invaded Hammerfell to claim the land given to them by the White-Gold Concordat... How about the fact the Aldmeri already occupied the land that was given in the Concordat. They had taken that during the war.

The Redguards single handedly stopped the Aldmeri army... What about the Imperial legions who left the Aldmeri weakened in Hammerfell and on the run, retreating from Imperial forces and harassing attacks from Alik'r warriors. How about Red Ring and the great sacrifice of Imperial, Breton and Nord blood which weakened the Dominion enough to allow the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai.

Titus II proved weak... Yet he destroyed the entire main army in Cyrodiil with his tactics, and he personally captured the enemy General.

Really Raijin? You're going to use bullplops and misinformation to try pass it off as facts now? Stick to hating on Roman helmets...

 

[Raijin]

So what you're saying is, that you and your buddy over there will not answer any of my questions and you want me to stop asking them because really, you just have an overwhelming hate of the Empire that cannot be founded on ego vice reason. You attack me personally to mask the fact that you guys lost this debate and are either unwilling or unable to discuss Ulfric's policies which puts him in a bad light by his making and his alone.

Don't pat yourself over the back too much You didn't win anything because if you had won you wouldn't be playing the victim role of "being attacked". A winner doesn't need to do such a thing like that in order to get the message across.

I've answered your questions with in-game dialogue and with lore pieces. What are you talking about? What questions are we (Or I) refuses to answer?

Theirs not much to talk about with regards of Ulfric's policies. He is fighting to gain independence. To draw away any Imperial influence that they have in Skyrim.

 

[Lewsean]

It's different because you won't leave... Hammerfell had it easy because you left them, is that so hard to grasp? Hammerfell would be in the EXACT same situation if the Empire was still occupying it. Kind of hard for Hammerfell to have a civil war with the Empire when the Empire left. I can't believe I'm having to explain such simple things.

Hammerfell had it easy? They devastated the southern areas of their province. Skyrim isn't having a Civil War against the Empire, Ulfric isn't Skyrim. There isn't this "Skyrim vs Cyrodiil" thing going on.

I can't believe you can't see a difference between the Hammerfell situation and the Stormcloaks. Hammerfell had united, Crowns and Forebears had settled their differences. It would only be a comparison if the Crowns had rejected the treaty and fought on alone while the Forebears agreed to the White-Gold Concordat.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

Yes, the Civil War is against the Empire... If the Empire left Skyrim like it did Hammerfell, none of this would be happening because Skyrim wouldn't be required to follow the WGC. The difference is, they DID reject the treaty and the Legions who were told to abandon their posts saw the betrayal in doing such a thing so they stayed, thus no Civil War.. If the Empire stayed then obviously there would be Civil War. Simple right?

Neither Raijin or yourself have have really explained anything. Most of it is just conjecture or talking up Ulfric. Raijin can't even explain Hammerfell's stance without posting a video that someone else made.

Anytime you are asked a question, it's always... 'play the game' 'oh it's so simple' or 'Gen Tully is a warmonger'.

If it's so simple why won't you just answer the damn question?

The video explains the history of the Redguards and Hammerfell, which included the situation with the Empire. The validation as of the accuracy on the video is pretty good. If were going to get down to business at least we can get an understanding of the history.

Oh and please! Just stop will you? We've answered your questions with lore attached. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Not my fault, and yes. I even explained to you how much of warmongering General "Tully" (LOL) is, but you reject my explanation after using in-game dialogue. You seem to refuse to accept anything that is negative to the Empire, as it seems to be. You're so bias that you actually fail at debating.

So what you're saying is, that you and your buddy over there will not answer any of my questions and you want me to stop asking them because really, you just have an overwhelming hate of the Empire that cannot be founded on ego vice reason. You attack me personally to mask the fact that you guys lost this debate and are either unwilling or unable to discuss Ulfric's policies which puts him in a bad light by his making and his alone.

You repeat the same plops over and over again, none of your arguments are fresh, thus there is no need to argue.. Especially when they've been debated litteraly 10 pages ago.

You know what I meant. They kept fighting and made the Dominion retreat, Skyrim chose to keep to the Empire and the WGC, with only minor issues as a result until the Nords who became the Stormcloaks chose to make the issue a big one.

Redguards are tougher than the Nords. They made Tiber Septim sign the First Treaty of Stros M'kai after he had taken their province.

Nords are warlike, their culture is surrounded around deeds of glory and honor.

Redguards are warriors by their own society. Children are expected to grasp basic weaponry and combat ability, and only the strongest, fastest and smartest Redguards are accepted into the military. Rulers are expected to have detailed knowledge of strategy, formations and tactics.

The Redguards united, being able to fight the weakened Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill in Hammerfell isn't at all surprising, it's expected.

Nords followed Tiber Septim because of his Nordic roots.. If he wasn't a hero to them, then Skyrim would've done the same.

 

[LegateFasendil]

So what you're saying is, that you and your buddy over there will not answer any of my questions and you want me to stop asking them because really, you just have an overwhelming hate of the Empire that cannot be founded on ego vice reason. You attack me personally to mask the fact that you guys lost this debate and are either unwilling or unable to discuss Ulfric's policies which puts him in a bad light by his making and his alone.

Don't pat yourself over the back too much You didn't win anything because if you had won you wouldn't be playing the victim role of "being attacked". A winner doesn't need to do such a thing like that in order to get the message across.

I've answered your questions with in-game dialogue and with lore pieces. What are you talking about? What questions are we (Or I) refuses to answer?

Theirs not much to talk about with regards of Ulfric's policies. He is fighting to gain independence. To draw away any Imperial influence that they have in Skyrim.

*Sigh*

You know buddy, end of the day, no one wins at this game. Except for perhaps the Neutrals. You know, the people smart enough to not take a side at all hehehe.

 

[LegateFasendil]

So what you're saying is, that you and your buddy over there will not answer any of my questions and you want me to stop asking them because really, you just have an overwhelming hate of the Empire that cannot be founded on ego vice reason. You attack me personally to mask the fact that you guys lost this debate and are either unwilling or unable to discuss Ulfric's policies which puts him in a bad light by his making and his alone.

You repeat the same pl*** over and over again, none of your arguments are fresh, thus there is no need to argue.. Especially when they've been debated litteraly 10 pages ago.

Do I Lewsean... Is that what's happening? Where would we be without you to tell us these things?

 

[LegateFasendil]

You know, I took another look over Mage and Ozan's conversation from earlier.

So, in my copious spare time today, I looked up a few things about Rome on Google.

And I must say... that Rome had mad-crazy problems before it fell. I mean the corruption and serfdom was out of this world Bad. Almost like another form of slavery, just produces lemmings dep on the Gov.

I don't see the Empire in Tamriel as being that bad as it is now. However, Religion is a problem. Either way ~ Restore Talos worship or leave it banned, it will invariably cause problems because the Talos Religion is too closely yoked with the Imperial Gov, (or at least it was). Hell, the damn Emperor TMII still wears a Talos amulet.

It would be better for the Empire if they let the ban on Talos go and the people just worshipped him themselves, as Empire was doing before Ulfric made his move.

I really truly think that was the right modus and should the Empire survive, they would learn a very valuable lesson about sep of church and state.

The Stormcloaks on the other hand, are making a mistake by overly embracing Talos worship, which would almost certainly be Gov-sponsored.

You know, it's kool to believe whatever you want, it's just, the Empire did the right thing by banning Talos in the manner in which they did. I think it would be a good model for the other denominations here ie... Mara, Zenithar... etc. Which if you think about it, that's where this thing is headed next.

Of course, on the flip side, many Barbarians sided against Rome because of Romans oppressing them. Couldn't build nice houses, differences over Religion and Barbarians not being paid their due for service to Rome etc...

The difference is of course, at least in Skyrim, the Roman Govs (Jarls) seem to actually care about the people though ~ It's not all about money. The Govs for the most part are trying to pump jobs and money back into their local economies. As opposed to the Stormcloak Jarls, who are draining all the wealth in their lands to the war effort and Ulfric wants more and more for whatever ambition he has once the war is finished.

I believe Sun Tzu said that no nation benefits from prolonged warfare.

The economy is key in this, well that and the bread basket. Cyrodil has the bread basket and money, Skyrim needs these things as evidenced by conversation with Sibil. So, I would say if Ulfric is already sucking Skyrim dry - just from this war - how in the holy hell is he supposed to last against a superior economy (Empire or Dominion take your pick) when he has no allies outside of Skyrim other than the indirect Dominion funding?

I dunno. I think it's all about the stronger economy. Whoever has the strongest economy win, Freedom to do this and that comes later on anyways, so why fight over small change?

 

[Lewsean]

You repeat the same pl*** over and over again, none of your arguments are fresh, thus there is no need to argue.. Especially when they've been debated litteraly 10 pages ago.

Do I Lewsean... Is that what's happening? Where would we be without you to tell us these things?

Well you are.. Bringing up the state of Windhelm when if you look back it's been debated like, days ago. In all honesty what is the point in going over something again so soon?

Hell, the damn Emperor TMII still wears a Talos amulet.

That is actually just random loot based on level, it could be any of the 9 divine amulets, or nothing, or something else completely.

Edit: Just look in the CK( Thought I'd add that before you berate me for being wrong and/or cynical lol )

 

[LegateFasendil]

Do I Lewsean... Is that what's happening? Where would we be without you to tell us these things?

Well you are.. Bringing up the state of Windhelm when if you look back it's been debated like, days ago. In all honesty what is the point in going over something again so soon?

Hail Freedom Fighter! Good to know you believe in protecting Freedom of Speech.

As far as I know, the Admins haven't banned me yet. So if you don't like my pl*ps then there's this little Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of yor browser. Feel Me?

 

[Lewsean]

Do I Lewsean... Is that what's happening? Where would we be without you to tell us these things?

Well you are.. Bringing up the state of Windhelm when if you look back it's been debated like, days ago. In all honesty what is the point in going over something again so soon?

Hail Freedom Fighter! Good to know you believe in protecting Freedom of Speech.

As far as I know, the Admins haven't banned me yet. So if you don't like my pl*ps then there's this little Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of yor browser. Feel Me?

You can write whatever you want lol, did I say otherwise? I ignored the question, you threw a hissy fit over being ignored, so I explained my reasoning for it.

The economy is key in this, well that and the bread basket. Cyrodil has the bread basket and money, Skyrim needs these things as evidenced by conversation with Sibil. So, I would say if Ulfric is already sucking Skyrim dry - just from this war - how in the holy hell is he supposed to last against a superior economy (Empire or Dominion take your pick) when he has no allies outside of Skyrim other than the indirect Dominion funding?

I dunno. I think it's all about the stronger economy. Whoever has the strongest economy win, Freedom to do this and that comes later on anyways, so why fight over small change?

The EETC has the supplies actually, and they are independant, as proven by them trading with Ulfric AND the Thalmor. Everybody needs eachother for economic reasons. Rome & Egypt were at war, yet Rome needed Egypt's grain supplies and Egypt needed Rome's coin so they still traded without a problem.

The difference is of course, at least in Skyrim, the Roman Govs (Jarls) seem to actually care about the people though ~ It's not all about money. The Govs for the most part are trying to pump jobs and money back into their local economies.

Jarl Siggurd is corrupt and has dealings with local bandits that murder his own people & the Jarl of Morthal is near invisible to her people and cares little for the problems in the hold.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Well you are.. Bringing up the state of Windhelm when if you look back it's been debated like, days ago. In all honesty what is the point in going over something again so soon?

Hail Freedom Fighter! Good to know you believe in protecting Freedom of Speech.

As far as I know, the Admins haven't banned me yet. So if you don't like my pl*ps then there's this little Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of yor browser. Feel Me?

You can write whatever you want lol, did I say otherwise? I ignored the question, you threw a hissy fit over being ignored, so I explained my reasoning for it.

The economy is key in this, well that and the bread basket. Cyrodil has the bread basket and money, Skyrim needs these things as evidenced by conversation with Sibil. So, I would say if Ulfric is already sucking Skyrim dry - just from this war - how in the holy hell is he supposed to last against a superior economy (Empire or Dominion take your pick) when he has no allies outside of Skyrim other than the indirect Dominion funding?

I dunno. I think it's all about the stronger economy. Whoever has the strongest economy win, Freedom to do this and that comes later on anyways, so why fight over small change?

The EETC has the supplies actually, and they are independant, as proven by them trading with Ulfric AND the Thalmor. Everybody needs eachother for economic reasons. Rome & Egypt were at war, yet Rome needed Egypt's grain supplies and Egypt needed Rome's coin so they still traded without a problem.

The difference is of course, at least in Skyrim, the Roman Govs (Jarls) seem to actually care about the people though ~ It's not all about money. The Govs for the most part are trying to pump jobs and money back into their local economies.

Jarl Siggurd is corrupt and has dealings with local bandits that murder his own people & the Jarl of Morthal is near invisible to her people and cares little for the problems in the hold.

Well, yeah, before the wars Rome was buying up that grain like crack. However, Caesar actually invaded Egypt for Egyptian coin to finance his war in Gaul and of course the grain to feed the growing Empire. Right? Kinda like Rome was on top of the 'food chain' hehehe.

You didn't like Jarl Sindgeir? On man. I thought he was one of the nicest Jarl's of all, at least to some wandering menace who stumbled upon Falkkreath while running like hell from an angry mob of Spriggans.

I mean yeah, Sindgeir was doing wrong but he cleaned up his mess, did right in the end. Sort of. I dunno bro he at least tried to clean up his hold as opposed to Ulfric who would not repent of his failings. Like them Raiders conveniently going after non-Nords and other 'undesirables' which Ulfric turned a blind eye to.

 

[Lewsean]

Hail Freedom Fighter! Good to know you believe in protecting Freedom of Speech.

As far as I know, the Admins haven't banned me yet. So if you don't like my pl*ps then there's this little Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of yor browser. Feel Me?

You can write whatever you want lol, did I say otherwise? I ignored the question, you threw a hissy fit over being ignored, so I explained my reasoning for it.

The economy is key in this, well that and the bread basket. Cyrodil has the bread basket and money, Skyrim needs these things as evidenced by conversation with Sibil. So, I would say if Ulfric is already sucking Skyrim dry - just from this war - how in the holy hell is he supposed to last against a superior economy (Empire or Dominion take your pick) when he has no allies outside of Skyrim other than the indirect Dominion funding?

I dunno. I think it's all about the stronger economy. Whoever has the strongest economy win, Freedom to do this and that comes later on anyways, so why fight over small change?

The EETC has the supplies actually, and they are independant, as proven by them trading with Ulfric AND the Thalmor. Everybody needs eachother for economic reasons. Rome & Egypt were at war, yet Rome needed Egypt's grain supplies and Egypt needed Rome's coin so they still traded without a problem.

The difference is of course, at least in Skyrim, the Roman Govs (Jarls) seem to actually care about the people though ~ It's not all about money. The Govs for the most part are trying to pump jobs and money back into their local economies.

Jarl Siggurd is corrupt and has dealings with local bandits that murder his own people & the Jarl of Morthal is near invisible to her people and cares little for the problems in the hold.

Well, yeah, before the wars Rome was buying up that grain like crack. However, Caesar actually invaded Egypt for Egyptian coin to finance his war in Gaul and of course the grain to feed the growing Empire. Right? Kinda like Rome was on top of the 'food chain' hehehe.

You didn't like Jarl Sindgeir? On man. I thought he was one of the nicest Jarl's of all, at least to some wandering menace who stumbled upon Falkkreath while running like hell from an angry mob of Spriggans.

I mean yeah, Sindgeir was doing wrong but he cleaned up his mess, did right in the end. Sort of. I dunno bro he at least tried to clean up his hold as opposed to Ulfric who would not repent of his failings. Like them Raiders conveniently going after non-Nords and other 'undesirables' which Ulfric turned a blind eye to.

Well he did invade Egypt, but that was after/during the Civil War and (If I remember correctly) his military action came about due to his relationship with Cleopatra and his hatred of Ptolemy for what happened to Pompey, though they were enemies at the time Caesar viewed Pompey as a friend, she basically used him to get the throne lol. And whilst I do agree Imperial holds do seem to be in better shape, I think it's harsh to judge the Jarls as the main cause of it, I mean the North and North-East of Skyrim is insanely harsh and Windhelm is in the harshest place of that region lol. In a City that is designed very closely to the Atmorans of old in such a harsh climate, I don't think it's fair to expect it to look like Falkreath which is located in one of the more propserous locations.

 

[LegateFasendil]

You can write whatever you want lol, did I say otherwise? I ignored the question, you threw a hissy fit over being ignored, so I explained my reasoning for it.

The EETC has the supplies actually, and they are independant, as proven by them trading with Ulfric AND the Thalmor. Everybody needs eachother for economic reasons. Rome & Egypt were at war, yet Rome needed Egypt's grain supplies and Egypt needed Rome's coin so they still traded without a problem.

Jarl Siggurd is corrupt and has dealings with local bandits that murder his own people & the Jarl of Morthal is near invisible to her people and cares little for the problems in the hold.

Well, yeah, before the wars Rome was buying up that grain like crack. However, Caesar actually invaded Egypt for Egyptian coin to finance his war in Gaul and of course the grain to feed the growing Empire. Right? Kinda like Rome was on top of the 'food chain' hehehe.

You didn't like Jarl Sindgeir? On man. I thought he was one of the nicest Jarl's of all, at least to some wandering menace who stumbled upon Falkkreath while running like hell from an angry mob of Spriggans.

I mean yeah, Sindgeir was doing wrong but he cleaned up his mess, did right in the end. Sort of. I dunno bro he at least tried to clean up his hold as opposed to Ulfric who would not repent of his failings. Like them Raiders conveniently going after non-Nords and other 'undesirables' which Ulfric turned a blind eye to.

Well he did invade Egypt, but that was after/during the Civil War and (If I remember correctly) his military action came about due to his relationship with Cleopatra and his hatred of Ptolemy for what happened to Pompey, though they were enemies at the time Caesar viewed Pompey as a friend, she basically used him to get the throne lol. And whilst I do agree Imperial holds do seem to be in better shape, I think it's harsh to judge the Jarls as the main cause of it, I mean the North and North-East of Skyrim is insanely harsh and Windhelm is in the harshest place of that region lol. In a City that is designed very closely to the Atmorans of old in such a harsh climate, I don't think it's fair to expect it to look like Falkreath which is located in one of the more propserous locations.

Yeah I remember reading about the 'Triumvurate' and the first thing that popped into my mind was "yeah" that pl*ps ain't going to last.

There were two of these, first one was ended in fav of Caesar. Second was the Civil War w/ Marc Antony and Cleo. A complete waste of time, money and assets.

Although I can sorta sympathize with the position Caesar was in during 1st Trium. Caesar lost his dad at a young age, they exiled his brother, then the pricks from the Senate tried to assassinate him, then they stabbed him in the back because he was successful.

Funny how 'the people' of Rome did not give Brutus any support after he did the deed.

 

[Raijin]

I don't see the Empire in Tamriel as being that bad as it is now. However, Religion is a problem. Either way ~ Restore Talos worship or leave it banned, it will invariably cause problems because the Talos Religion is too closely yoked with the Imperial Gov, (or at least it was). Hell, the damn Emperor TMII still wears a Talos amulet.

Only problem is that the Empire is weak by lore standards, and the Dominion sees right through it, and deliberately exploiting this weakness for their own benefit. The fact to the matter is that TMII rejected the ultimatum the first round while his own Generals are warning him not to do anything that will ignited a war, and the consequences from his actions cost him dearly as it further weaken his military.

When an Empire is weak it becomes a problem for Imperial citizens and human kind, especially when theirs another faction (Aldmeri Dominion) who wants to become the next rulers. These are elves who are willing to slaughter their own babies for not displaying a specific standards for their desires. What mercy would they show to those whom they view as inferior?