Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ivory]

I Still don't think it has anything to do with Eorlund Gray Mane. it just happens to be his family tradition and he is also a great smith making amazing steel due to the fact that hes working the Skyforge. Take any other master smith and he/she could do it too.

Then explain why everyone holds him in such high regard, or the fact the Dragonborn cannot make Skyforge steel when he/she uses the Forge him/herself?

 

[Lewsean]

Stormcloaks, purely from an ethical point of view.. Not a chance in hell would I side with the guys who constantly betray the people they're apparently supposed to protect. Let's not forget the only reason the civil war began in the first place was because the Empire used the nords of Skyrim to take back the reach in return for free worship of Talos, only to be screwed over.. Nostalgia about Talos and HIS Empire isn't worth it, the current Empire is but a shadow of it's former self ripe with corruption from the very top. The nord people are very proud too, the whole argument about the Empire being better in the long run doesn't matter, a race as proud and stubborn as the nords would rather die fighting for what they believe in than live in fear having elves dictate the fate of men. To me it's about freedom to live as you please, not living just to prolong living, so screw the cowardly Empire who abandon the very founding traditions just so they can rule a bit longer.

 

[Jeremius]

Stormcloaks, purely from an ethical point of view.. Not a chance in hell would I side with the guys who constantly betray the people they're apparently supposed to protect. Let's not forget the only reason the civil war began in the first place was because the Empire used the nords of Skyrim to take back the reach in return for free worship of Talos, only to be screwed over.. Nostalgia about Talos and HIS Empire isn't worth it, the current Empire is but a shadow of it's former self ripe with corruption from the very top. The nord people are very proud too, the whole argument about the Empire being better in the long run doesn't matter, a race as proud and stubborn as the nords would rather die fighting for what they believe in than live in fear having elves dictate the fate of men. To me it's about freedom to live as you please, not living just to prolong living, so screw the cowardly Empire who abandon the very founding traditions just so they can rule a bit longer.

The Civil War began, actually, because the Thalmor set it up, and the Stormcloaks walked right into the trap.

 

[Lewsean]

Stormcloaks, purely from an ethical point of view.. Not a chance in hell would I side with the guys who constantly betray the people they're apparently supposed to protect. Let's not forget the only reason the civil war began in the first place was because the Empire used the nords of Skyrim to take back the reach in return for free worship of Talos, only to be screwed over.. Nostalgia about Talos and HIS Empire isn't worth it, the current Empire is but a shadow of it's former self ripe with corruption from the very top. The nord people are very proud too, the whole argument about the Empire being better in the long run doesn't matter, a race as proud and stubborn as the nords would rather die fighting for what they believe in than live in fear having elves dictate the fate of men. To me it's about freedom to live as you please, not living just to prolong living, so screw the cowardly Empire who abandon the very founding traditions just so they can rule a bit longer.

The Civil War began, actually, because the Thalmor set it up, and the Stormcloaks walked right into the trap.

The Empire are puppets, they do what they're told at every corner. They promised Ulfric and his followers free worship after the incident, then locked them all up because they were scared of the Elves, lol.. Betraying there own people, the men that saved there skins in the Great War just to keep the Elves happy, the same Elves that want all men enslaved. And the book 'The Bear of Eastmarch', full of propaganda that the Forsworn them selves don't even admit to being true. Says a lot really, the oh so great Empire, the ones keeping the dominion 'out' of Skyrim, couldn't even take back the Reach without Ulfric and his militia, and betraying them after, yet we're supposed to believe they're the ones to save the race of men? They can't save them selves without abandoning the foundations of there own Empire, I have very little faith they're capable of saving Tamriel.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Then explain why everyone holds him in such high regard

Because he works the Skyforge. Thats it. Take that away and hes just one of the great clans of Skyrim.

or the fact the Dragonborn cannot make Skyforge steel when he/she uses the Forge him/herself?

Technically you can as well. You can make Ancient Nord Armor at the Skyforge as well as Nord Hero stuff which is twice as effective as steel.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

No, one was killed by an arrow to the throat. The Dominion have plenty of archers, actually they have the best archers in Tamriel.

Likely not. remember, the tongues of old knew a lot more shouts than Ulfric or The DB initially. They probably knew Slow Time and Elemental Fury, hell maybe even Dragon Aspect. It would take a lot to take them down.

Yes, really.

No Not really. You destroyed my argument about espionage and the Gray Manes, I'll give you that, but not the one about how Ulfric didn't use his Thu'um in the Great War.

Why wouldn't he have been captured? Tongues aren't invincable, and they can't shout constantly.

one Ice Form word can freeze about three people not to mention Ulfric knows all three as well as Unrelenting Force and Disarm.

Or he is just a crap military commander.

Don't start this up again please, Ive brought up my theory as to why it would have been better to surrender at Darkwater Crossing. If you really want to have this argument you can go 40 pages back and look for it.

Trying to emulate me only works when you know what you're on about.

Oh please, "Emulate you" are you really that pretentious. I simply thought you had a good joke to spread upon the forums and I credited you to it.

Otherwise you come across as a bigger idiot than before.

I did and I realized my mistake. You see the difference between you and I is I can admit to my mistakes Drunken.

They said he died in battle, because that is the best a Nord can hope for.

Idolaf said this. The rest of the family called him a stupid traitor who died a traitors death.
Yeah, very honorable.

"Between the two of us, his family is better off thinking he's dead. Thorald and I have history, all right? We used to be friends. So I looked into it when he disappeared. I found out the Thalmor have him. And they don't let anyone go. So I've kept my mouth shut. Like I said, his family is better off believing he's gone, because he's never coming back." - Idolaf Battle-Born

I used some contacts in the Legion, asked some questions. Was told I should mind my own business." - Idolaf Battle-Born

Remember though, you said the family was concerned about his absence when in fact Idolaf was the only one who really was.

Oh snap, Mage wins again.

Yes, Stroke your ego some more please.

The fuss was because the Battle-Born's inquired about it.

Or because the mother thought something was up with the Battle-Borns and Thoralds disappearance

You think the Thalmor wouldn't keep eyes and ears in Black Marsh or Hammerfell? That is a big assumption, since both those provinces are next to theirs. Be stupid not to have anything there and the Thalmor aren't stupid.

Well Black Marsh is almost uninhabitable, and Hammerfell is pretty keen on keeping the Thalmor out after a 5 year war.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Jeremius]

Stormcloaks, purely from an ethical point of view.. Not a chance in hell would I side with the guys who constantly betray the people they're apparently supposed to protect. Let's not forget the only reason the civil war began in the first place was because the Empire used the nords of Skyrim to take back the reach in return for free worship of Talos, only to be screwed over.. Nostalgia about Talos and HIS Empire isn't worth it, the current Empire is but a shadow of it's former self ripe with corruption from the very top. The nord people are very proud too, the whole argument about the Empire being better in the long run doesn't matter, a race as proud and stubborn as the nords would rather die fighting for what they believe in than live in fear having elves dictate the fate of men. To me it's about freedom to live as you please, not living just to prolong living, so screw the cowardly Empire who abandon the very founding traditions just so they can rule a bit longer.

The Civil War began, actually, because the Thalmor set it up, and the Stormcloaks walked right into the trap.

The Empire are puppets, they do what they're told at every corner. They promised Ulfric and his followers free worship after the incident, then locked them all up because they were scared of the Elves, lol.. Betraying there own people, the men that saved there skins in the Great War just to keep the Elves happy, the same Elves that want all men enslaved. And the book 'The Bear of Eastmarch', full of propaganda that the Forsworn them selves don't even admit to being true. Says a lot really, the oh so great Empire, the ones keeping the dominion 'out' of Skyrim, couldn't even take back the Reach without Ulfric and his militia, and betraying them after, yet we're supposed to believe they're the ones to save the race of men? They can't save them selves without abandoning the foundations of there own Empire, I have very little faith they're capable of saving Tamriel.

The Thalmor set the whole thing up, and Stormcloaks blame the Empire? Sounds like walking into the trap to me.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They didn't

The Civil War began, actually, because the Thalmor set it up, and the Stormcloaks walked right into the trap.

The Empire are puppets, they do what they're told at every corner. They promised Ulfric and his followers free worship after the incident, then locked them all up because they were scared of the Elves, lol.. Betraying there own people, the men that saved there skins in the Great War just to keep the Elves happy, the same Elves that want all men enslaved. And the book 'The Bear of Eastmarch', full of propaganda that the Forsworn them selves don't even admit to being true. Says a lot really, the oh so great Empire, the ones keeping the dominion 'out' of Skyrim, couldn't even take back the Reach without Ulfric and his militia, and betraying them after, yet we're supposed to believe they're the ones to save the race of men? They can't save them selves without abandoning the foundations of there own Empire, I have very little faith they're capable of saving Tamriel.

The Thalmor set the whole thing up, and Stormcloaks blame the Empire? Sounds like walking into the trap to me.

The Thalmor didn't set anything up. The Reachmen captured Markarth the jarl asked Ulfric to help and he did this for agreement of Talos being reinstated. The Thalmor disapproved and the empire took it in the ass and imprisoned Ulfric which started the Rebellion

 

[Jeremius]

They didn't

The Empire are puppets, they do what they're told at every corner. They promised Ulfric and his followers free worship after the incident, then locked them all up because they were scared of the Elves, lol.. Betraying there own people, the men that saved there skins in the Great War just to keep the Elves happy, the same Elves that want all men enslaved. And the book 'The Bear of Eastmarch', full of propaganda that the Forsworn them selves don't even admit to being true. Says a lot really, the oh so great Empire, the ones keeping the dominion 'out' of Skyrim, couldn't even take back the Reach without Ulfric and his militia, and betraying them after, yet we're supposed to believe they're the ones to save the race of men? They can't save them selves without abandoning the foundations of there own Empire, I have very little faith they're capable of saving Tamriel.

The Thalmor set the whole thing up, and Stormcloaks blame the Empire? Sounds like walking into the trap to me.

The Thalmor didn't set anything up. The Reachmen captured Markarth the jarl asked Ulfric to help and he did this for agreement of Talos being reinstated. The Thalmor disapproved and the empire took it in the ass and imprisoned Ulfric which started the Rebellion

The WGC is not setting things up? Without that, none of this would have happened.

 

[Ivory]

Because he works the Skyforge. Thats it. Take that away and hes just one of the great clans of Skyrim.

Why are you so determined to undermine the Clan that supports the stormcloaks? He's an amazing Blacksmith and the only one who can craft Skyforge steel. Now you're just being stubborn. If he dies, no one can take his place.

Technically you can as well. You can make Ancient Nord Armor at the Skyforge as well as Nord Hero stuff which is twice as effective as steel.

It's still inferior to Skyforge, and that's a terrible arguement due to the fact that Oh, yeah I'm sure the legendary Dragonborn you expect to save you from the dominion will instead go forge ancient nordic supplies for the rest of his or her life right?

And here, some actual evidence.

• When Fralia Gray-Mane is asked who the best blacksmith in Skyrim is, she will respond that those from around Skyrim don't ask questions like that, and will say that it is Eorlund, but if he is dead, she will curse the Dragonborn for bringing sad memories to her and will say that the Skyforge runs cold.

Stop being stubborn. You're just arguing pointlessly for the sake of it so you can avoid being wrong when you already are. That's your biggest problem in this thread.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Jeremius said: ↑

Lewsean said: ↑​

Stormcloaks, purely from an ethical point of view.. Not a chance in hell would I side with the guys who constantly betray the people they're apparently supposed to protect. Let's not forget the only reason the civil war began in the first place was because the Empire used the nords of Skyrim to take back the reach in return for free worship of Talos, only to be screwed over.. Nostalgia about Talos and HIS Empire isn't worth it, the current Empire is but a shadow of it's former self ripe with corruption from the very top. The nord people are very proud too, the whole argument about the Empire being better in the long run doesn't matter, a race as proud and stubborn as the nords would rather die fighting for what they believe in than live in fear having elves dictate the fate of men. To me it's about freedom to live as you please, not living just to prolong living, so screw the cowardly Empire who abandon the very founding traditions just so they can rule a bit longer.​

The Civil War began, actually, because the Thalmor set it up, and the Stormcloaks walked right into the trap.​

The Empire are puppets, they do what they're told at every corner. They promised Ulfric and his followers free worship after the incident, then locked them all up because they were scared of the Elves, lol.. Betraying there own people, the men that saved there skins in the Great War just to keep the Elves happy, the same Elves that want all men enslaved. And the book 'The Bear of Eastmarch', full of propaganda that the Forsworn them selves don't even admit to being true. Says a lot really, the oh so great Empire, the ones keeping the dominion 'out' of Skyrim, couldn't even take back the Reach without Ulfric and his militia, and betraying them after, yet we're supposed to believe they're the ones to save the race of men? They can't save them selves without abandoning the foundations of there own Empire, I have very little faith they're capable of saving Tamriel.
Lewsean, Today at 11:12 AM Report

Lewsean

First of all, Welcome to the Thread!

Now, while I respect your ethical argument, one of the problems with such an argument is the Empire can also claim the Stormcloaks aren't being ethical as well.

Regarding the Reach, my research has shown the Empire itself made no such arrangement. It was the former Jarl's son who took it upon himself to enlist Ulfric and friends to work with his people in order to reclaim his father's Office as Jarl resulting in the Markarth Incident. The Thalmor discovered this arrangement and rather than risk war with the Thalmor, the Jarl wanted to hand the city back over to the Empire and the Empire was forced to go along with arrangement that Jarl Igmund signed with Ulfric. Empire had nothing to do with this accept faulting on an arrangement they were never originally party to. Keep in mind now, during this time Hammerfell was still at war with the Dominion, so The Great War was still on.

So, what you have here is the Jarl saying ok, we'll do one thing, however the Jarl's authority is subject to Imperial Law. The Imperials did not have to do anything for Ulfric. I suspect Ulfric realized this deal would never go down in his favor so he used this as a cheap but effective publicity stunt, to gain sympathy and more support for his cause, making his Stormcloak rebellion official.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They didn't

The Thalmor set the whole thing up, and Stormcloaks blame the Empire? Sounds like walking into the trap to me.

The Thalmor didn't set anything up. The Reachmen captured Markarth the jarl asked Ulfric to help and he did this for agreement of Talos being reinstated. The Thalmor disapproved and the empire took it in the ass and imprisoned Ulfric which started the Rebellion

The WGC is not setting things up? Without that, none of this would have happened.

When did I say the WGC anywhere in my argument?

 

[Jeremius]

They didn't The Thalmor didn't set anything up. The Reachmen captured Markarth the jarl asked Ulfric to help and he did this for agreement of Talos being reinstated. The Thalmor disapproved and the empire took it in the ass and imprisoned Ulfric which started the Rebellion

The WGC is not setting things up? Without that, none of this would have happened.

When did I say the WGC anywhere in my argument?

I am talking about the Civil War, not the Markarth incident.

 

[DestroyerDevourMaster]

Every time I come back to this thread I'm like

Just curious how can you guys debate for so long without getting fed up with it?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Why are you so determined to undermine the Clan that supports the stormcloaks? He's an amazing Blacksmith and the only one who can craft Skyforge steel. Now you're just being stubborn. If he dies, no one can take his place.

I'm not. I Respect Eorlund a lot and the rest of the Gray Mane clan.Theyre great people and Eorlund's a great smith, hes a genius at the forge, but can someone take his place, absolutely. The Skyforge is where the Power lays not the man behind it. Of course the man or woman behind it has to be a master but, Heres 3 people who are also master smiths
Ghorza
Gunmar
Balimund
All three of these people CAN work the Skyforge and produce the same results.

It's still inferior to Skyforge,

Nord hero weapons are the same base value as Skyforge Steel Weapons.

and that's a terrible arguement due to the fact that Oh, yeah I'm sure the legendary Dragonborn you expect to save you from the dominion will instead go forge ancient nordic supplies for the rest of his or her life right?

It reeally doesn't have to be the Dragonborn. Theres three other people right there who can do it.

And here, some actual evidence.

When Fralia Gray-Mane is asked who the best blacksmith in Skyrim is, she will respond that those from around Skyrim don't ask questions like that, and will say that it is Eorlund, but if he is dead, she will curse the Dragonborn for bringing sad memories to her and will say that the Skyforge runs cold.

Thats hardly evidence.
1.) That's one woman's opinion
2.) That same woman is the mans loving wife. Of course she thinks he's the best smith in Skyrim.

Stop being stubborn.

Just trying to point you to my side just like what you're doing.

You're just arguing pointlessly for the sake of it so you can avoid being wrong when you already are. That's your biggest problem in this thread.

How is that my biggest problem? I've admitted to my mistakes constantly. At least I'm a man about my mistakes. You don't even respond when you're wrong.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The WGC is not setting things up? Without that, none of this would have happened.

When did I say the WGC anywhere in my argument?

I am talking about the Civil War, not the Markarth incident.

Oh of course, I agree then. I eman we would probably just sit back and still be fighting if the WGC wasn't signed

 

[DrunkenMage]

Likely not. remember, the tongues of old knew a lot more shouts than Ulfric or The DB initially. They probably knew Slow Time and Elemental Fury, hell maybe even Dragon Aspect. It would take a lot to take them down.

Didn't we discuss looking into things before posting?

We've brought down their main gate thanks to the young Voice master, but the brash lad took an arrow in the neck in the process. It seems he will be joining the Eight in Sovngarde soon. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skorm_Snow-Strider's_Journal

No Not really. You destroyed my argument about espionage and the Gray Manes, I'll give you that, but not the one about how Ulfric didn't use his Thu'um in the Great War.

You have no evidence Ulfric didn't use the Thu'um during the Great War. All you have is "Ulfric is pwnage he just own all with Thu'um and can never be taken captive. Because tongues are game breaking powerful"

one Ice Form word can freeze about three people not to mention Ulfric knows all three as well as Unrelenting Force and Disarm.

Yeah, he so awesomely powerful. Can never be taken prisoner with the Thu'um.

Don't start this up again please, Ive brought up my theory as to why it would have been better to surrender at Darkwater Crossing. If you really want to have this argument you can go 40 pages back and look for it.

It had nothing to do with his surrender. He was outsmarted by a better Military Commander, that caused the ambush in the first place. Him surrendering or not doesn't change the fact Tullius pulled a fast one on him in several weeks.

Oh please, "Emulate you" are you really that pretentious. I simply thought you had a good joke to spread upon the forums and I credited you to it.

You were trying to be a smart ass, but it backfired. Only works when you're correct.

I did and I realized my mistake. You see the difference between you and I is I can admit to my mistakes Drunken.

Well since I have admitted error many times in this thread. Your comment here is idiotic and just plain wrong, like always.

Idolaf said this. The rest of the family called him a stupid traitor who died a traitors death.
Yeah, very honorable.

Better to tell them he's being tortured and put to a slow and painful death? Dying in combat is something worthy in songs and Sovngarde.

If they truly didn't care, they'd say he was getting put down slowly.

Remember though, you said the family was concerned about his absence when in fact Idolaf was the only one who really was.

Actually the family would care, with the exception of the father. Idolaf cared about his old friend and the other family members think the feud is stupid.

Yes, Stroke your ego some more please.

Or because the mother thought something was up with the Battle-Borns and Thoralds disappearance

What are you on about? You said why there was a fuss about it if it wasn't illegal. The mother upset is normal, and it wouldn't have anything to do with legality.

Well Black Marsh is almost uninhabitable, and Hammerfell is pretty keen on keeping the Thalmor out after a 5 year war.

Black Marsh can support other races, just not the deep interior. Besides, Thalmor have assets and agents of all races, few Argonian sympathizers wouldn't be surprising.

Hammerfell is keen on keeping the Aldmeri Dominion's army out. You can't keep the Thalmor out while they're still in power, they'll always have eyes and ears within provinces. Thalmor have a lot of money, enough that the EETC says they have "considerable funds"

Why is it so hard to believe that people can be bought, black mailed or threatened into supporting them.

 

[Ivory]

Ghorza
Gunmar
Balimund
All three of these people CAN work the Skyforge and produce the same results.

Holy Christ.

Ghorza, Journeyman Smith, Has No knowledge of the art of Crafting Skyforge Steel.

Gunmar, Master, Has no knowledge of the art of crafting Skyforge Steel.

Balimund, Expert Blacksmith, Has No knowledge of the Art of Skyforge Steel.

The Dragonborn can be a better Blacksmith then every single one of these people, but cannot, at maxed out skill, craft Skyforge steel because he or she does NOT know how to craft this Steel. At All. Crafting Skyforge Steel has to be LEARNED.

The argument isn't about what they CAN do. Sure, maybe they CAN learn, but if Grey-Mane is DEAD, The ONLY one who knows how to craft this steel. How can someone learn a technique that is dead?

And show me, who takes over the Skyforge upon his Death? No one.

How is that my biggest problem? I've admitted to my mistakes constantly. At least I'm a man about my mistakes. You don't even respond when you're wrong.

Like when? If I don't respond, it's because you're being too thick, or so far up your own ass and calling me a pretentious ass that you ignore every single point I've made.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Didn't we discuss looking into things before posting?

We've brought down their main gate thanks to the young Voice master, but the brash lad took an arrow in the neck in the process. It seems he will be joining the Eight in Sovngarde soon. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skorm_Snow-Strider's_Journal

Oh that actually happened. I thought you were just making a quick analogy.

You have no evidence Ulfric didn't use the Thu'um during the Great War. All you have is "Ulfric is pwnage he just own all with Thu'um and can never be taken captive. Because tongues are game breaking powerful"

And you have no evidence he did, so its a moot point. Also don't you think if he did it would be mentioned. It was mentioned that he used it in Markarth but not in the Great War. And for the love of god stop using the word "pwnage" sarcastically.

Yeah, he so awesomely powerful. Can never be taken prisoner with the Thu'um.

He was ambushed in this fight in the Great War he was likely fighting in a Field Battle and was paralyzed or knocked unconscious then taken prisoner. Although I agree Ulfric was outsmarted by Tulius although it wouldn't have worked totally in his favor if Ulfric had died that day.

You were trying to be a smart ass, but it backfired. Only works when you're correct.

Yes. this is true. doesn't mean I was trying to "emulate you" Jesus, I cant even get over how egotistical that sounds.

Well since I have admitted error many times in this thread. Your comment here is idiotic and just plain wrong, like always.

Uhh when? example please. And when was this 500 pages ago?

Better to tell them he's being tortured and put to a slow and painful death? Dying in combat is something worthy in songs and Sovngarde.

Dying a "stupid traitor" isn't.

If they truly didn't care, they'd say he was getting put down slowly.

Idolaf is the only one who cares the rest of the family couldn't give a damn about him, or the rest of the Gray Manes for that matter. Only the Young ones are willing to put the feud past them it would seem.

Actually the family would care, with the exception of the father. Idolaf cared about his old friend and the other family members think the feud is stupid.

Only the young ones it would seem and Idolaf was the only one who looked into it further, He seems to be the only one who's really concerned about Thorald on the Battle Born clan The others are Imperial Supporters why would they care about the death of some Stormcloak Traitor. the Older family members, and even the younger ons seem to not care.

I'll take that as an assured sign that you will.

What are you on about? You said there why there was a fuss about it if it wasn't illegal. The mother upset is normal, and it wouldn't have anything to do with legality.

hold on, I think the mother would be upset either way although if he wasn't arrested illegally she likely wouldn't make a huge fuss about it.

Black Marsh can support other races, just not the deep interior. Besides, Thalmor have assets and agents of all races, few Argonian sympathizers wouldn't be surprising.

The Argonians are an extremely powerful force. The Empire and Tiber Septim himself refused to fight them even from the inside.

Hammerfell is keen on keeping the Aldmeri Dominion's army out. You can't keep the Thalmor out while they're still in power, they'll always have eyes and ears within provinces. Thalmor have a lot of money, enough that the EETC says they have "considerable funds"

Why is it so hard to believe that people can be bought, black mailed or threatened into supporting them.

Its not, I just... don't want to believe people would sell their souls like that, especially Nords, Imperials, and Redguards. Its unsettling to me. I mean wheres the proof that the Imperials will even have a chance in that cold war?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Also, it's You're.

dammit well I have no argument there. Mistake taken in.