Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

I will say in simple terms. Do you know, for a fact, that the armor and flag belong to him? Not really, other than it being in his house and you jumping to conclusions. Do you know where it actually came from? Not really. Until you can prove that evidence, none of what you say is actually correct. The armor means nothing because we do not have all the facts, just conclusion-jumping.

Also, they are tucked away from most people. The only reason we know it is there is because we wander around. It is likely that NO ONE knows about it anyways.

Were beyond using simple terms, Jeremius. Now were just playing the "Who can make up the best excuse" games. If the flag and armor doesn't belong to him, why does he have it in his tavern? Why would you purposely store items in your own home/business to which you know can cause you a great deal of grief later on? These items were not made to be hidden, but widely available for all to see.

And since were dealing with Laws here I gave you all of the evidence you need to further prove that the Dunmer is guilty of Treason of Windhelm, and being an Imperial spy. Remember Skyrim is still under Imperial law, and still considered to be part of Empire.

"All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." -Imperial Legal basics http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

So it's the Dunmers that needs to prove themselves innocent.

 

[DrunkenMage]

There is nothing in-game that suggests suspicious activity, no notes about the items and no conversations.

Since there is nothing suspicious, not even the slightest mention in-game, we have to then assume the logical. We have Imperial armor, could mean ex Military service... But then we have an Imperial flag, now those aren't common in veteran houses. Otherwise wouldn't Brina have one? She is an ex Imperial Legate, commanded a Legion.

The Imperial flag, where do we often find those? Where garrisons are or once were. Forts, towns, towers, castles and outpost buildings. Windhelm was home to a Legion garrison, and we also know many Stormcloaks are ex Legion. Put two and two together, I'm sure they're well aware of those items.

I'm curious, how does it help your side in making out that the Stormcloaks are so incompetent that these items which aren't even hidden, have gone unnoticed... In the capital city of the rebellion?

What if it wasn't just items left behind by the Legion, what if there was a stockpile of weapons, gear and plans to strike when the Nords have let down their guard. Obviously the Stormcloaks wouldn't know, because if an Imperial flag and Imperial armor can sit unknown for months or years... It doesn't look good.

Stormcloaks plan to fight the Thalmor, who are masters of cloak and dagger. You lot don't make it seem the Thalmor would have to try very hard against the Nords to cause great damage.

 

[Ivory]

I will say in simple terms. Do you know, for a fact, that the armor and flag belong to him? Not really, other than it being in his house and you jumping to conclusions. Do you know where it actually came from? Not really. Until you can prove that evidence, none of what you say is actually correct. The armor means nothing because we do not have all the facts, just conclusion-jumping.

Also, they are tucked away from most people. The only reason we know it is there is because we wander around. It is likely that NO ONE knows about it anyways.

Were beyond using simple terms, Jeremius. Now were just playing the "Who can make up the best excuse" games. If the flag and armor doesn't belong to him, why does he have it in his tavern? Why would you purposely store items in your own home/business to which you know can cause you a great deal of grief later on? These items were not made to be hidden, but widely available for all to see.

So what about Imperial Blacksmiths who sometimes have Stormcloak items in their stock, or Stormcloak Blacksmiths who have Imperial items in theirs? Are they all spies?

 

[Jeremius]

I will say in simple terms. Do you know, for a fact, that the armor and flag belong to him? Not really, other than it being in his house and you jumping to conclusions. Do you know where it actually came from? Not really. Until you can prove that evidence, none of what you say is actually correct. The armor means nothing because we do not have all the facts, just conclusion-jumping.

Also, they are tucked away from most people. The only reason we know it is there is because we wander around. It is likely that NO ONE knows about it anyways.

Were beyond using simple terms, Jeremius. Now were just playing the "Who can make up the best excuse" games. If the flag and armor doesn't belong to him, why does he have it in his tavern? Why would you purposely store items in your own home/business to which you know can cause you a great deal of grief later on? These items were not made to be hidden, but widely available for all to see.

And since were dealing with Laws here I gave you all of the evidence you need to further prove that the Dunmer is guilty of Treason of Windhelm, and being an Imperial spy. Remember Skyrim is still under Imperial law, and still considered to be part of Empire.

"All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." -Imperial Legal basics http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

So it's the Dunmers that needs to prove themselves innocent.

Again, does ANYONE outside of us know about the armor and flag? No? Then it means nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And since were dealing with Laws here I gave you all of the evidence you need to further prove that the Dunmer is guilty of Treason of Windhelm, and being an Imperial spy.

We can have it your way. He's a spy Raijin, obviously the best spy in all of Tamriel. He has Imperial items out in the open, not even an attempt to hide them properly.

The Stormcloaks are outmatched in this area of skillful espionage. How can they hope to ever know about this intruder, this treasonous, expert cloak and dagger foe?

Right in the heart of Windhelm, surrounded by Stormcloak soldiers and heavy supporters. This mer is devious beyond belief, Gods help Ulfric... How can he be safe when the Empire is right under his nose.

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure. He's got weapons and armor, maybe more on the way. By Talos... the tavern could be an Imperial safe house, maybe for assassins or worse, maybe for the so called 'spectres' feared Imperial agents, trained killers with no morals.

Surrender while you can, this Dunmer is too powerful.

 

[Jeremius]

And since were dealing with Laws here I gave you all of the evidence you need to further prove that the Dunmer is guilty of Treason of Windhelm, and being an Imperial spy.

We can have it your way. He's a spy Raijin, obviously the best spy in all of Tamriel. He has Imperial items out in the open, not even an attempt to hide them properly.

The Stormcloaks are outmatched in this area of skillful espionage. How can they hope to ever know about this intruder, this treasonous, expert cloak and dagger foe?

Right in the heart of Windhelm, surrounded by Stormcloak soldiers and heavy supporters. This mer is devious beyond belief, Gods help Ulfric... How can he be safe when the Empire is right under his nose.

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure. He's got weapons and armor, maybe more on the way. By Talos... the tavern could be an Imperial safe house, maybe for assassins or worse, maybe for the so called 'spectres' feared Imperial agents, trained killers with no morals.

Surrender while you can, this Dunmer is too powerful.

IT is not like they are actually in the open, but up in his room, so it is likely no one has even seen it.

 

[Raijin]

So what about Imperial Blacksmiths who sometimes have Stormcloak items in their stock, or Stormcloak Blacksmiths who have Imperial items in theirs? Are they all spies?

I don't remember seeing these kind of items in their stocks.

We can have it your way. He's a spy Raijin, obviously the best spy in all of Tamriel. He has Imperial items out in the open, not even an attempt to hide them properly.

The Stormcloaks are outmatched in this area of skillful espionage. How can they hope to ever know about this intruder, this treasonous, expert cloak and dagger foe?

Right in the heart of Windhelm, surrounded by Stormcloak soldiers and heavy supporters. This mer is devious beyond belief, Gods help Ulfric... How can he be safe when the Empire is right under his nose.

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure. He's got weapons and armor, maybe more on the way. By Talos... the tavern could be an Imperial safe house, maybe for assassins or worse, maybe for the so called 'spectres' feared Imperial agents, trained killers with no morals.

Surrender while you can, this Dunmer is too powerful.

I know that this is a sarcastic response from you, DrunkenMage, and that I shouldn't taken it seriously, but the part where I highlighted in red is an actual a concern for Windhelm.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter

 

[Jeremius]

So what about Imperial Blacksmiths who sometimes have Stormcloak items in their stock, or Stormcloak Blacksmiths who have Imperial items in theirs? Are they all spies?

I don't remember seeing these kind of items in their stocks.

We can have it your way. He's a spy Raijin, obviously the best spy in all of Tamriel. He has Imperial items out in the open, not even an attempt to hide them properly.

The Stormcloaks are outmatched in this area of skillful espionage. How can they hope to ever know about this intruder, this treasonous, expert cloak and dagger foe?

Right in the heart of Windhelm, surrounded by Stormcloak soldiers and heavy supporters. This mer is devious beyond belief, Gods help Ulfric... How can he be safe when the Empire is right under his nose.

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure. He's got weapons and armor, maybe more on the way. By Talos... the tavern could be an Imperial safe house, maybe for assassins or worse, maybe for the so called 'spectres' feared Imperial agents, trained killers with no morals.

Surrender while you can, this Dunmer is too powerful.

I know that this is a sarcastic response from you, DrunkenMage, and that I shouldn't taken it seriously, but the part where I highlighted in red is an actual a concern for Windhelm.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter

Seriously? Why respond then. It is not a concern because we do not have evidence that that stuff was even smuggled in at all. we have no proof he is or is not a spy, which means that the idea of him being one is based off of bias.

The armor is up in his room, which likely no one goes in, so it is safe from being seen by everyone but the people on this forum.

 

[SkyrimJunky]

TBH, Stormcloaks because at the end you get general tullius's armor (hope I spelt that right) other than that I don't really care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jeremius]

TBH, Stormcloaks because at the end you get general tullius's armor (hope I spelt that right) other than that I don't really care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do not care about the armor. I find anything in the quests to be not as good as what the player can make.

 

[SkyrimJunky]

I do not care about the armor. I find anything in the quests to be not as good as what the player can make.

That's true yes, I have 100 smithing so I can make anything but I am at a high lvl so my armor dosnt matter so I collect all the stuff you can't make, especially for decoration at my hearth fire house


Need Advise? Ask?

 

[Jeremius]

I do not care about the armor. I find anything in the quests to be not as good as what the player can make.

That's true yes, I have 100 smithing so I can make anything but I am at a high lvl so my armor dosnt matter so I collect all the stuff you can't make, especially for decoration at my hearth fire house


Need Advise? Ask?

unique/collectible is another word for useless.

 

[SkyrimJunky]

unique/collectible is another word for useless.

I agree but it's still cool to have


Need Advise? Ask?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure.

Actually, you have a 50/50 chance there.

On one hand, there's the East Empire Company in Windhelm. They claim that they try not to get involved in politics, but if the payment is high enough I'm sure they wouldn't mind transporting a few soldiers into the port as well to strike right at the origin and heart of the rebellion. And if the guards aren't able to hold up a single murderer in the city, how are they going to deal with a whole group of killers? Ulfric has his troops on battlefields and scattered throughout "his" territories in Skyrim, not at home in Windhelm.

On the other hand, look at this:

Scouts-Many-Marshes: "Why do the Nords bother you so much, Ambarys?"
Ambarys: "Why do you even need to ask? They treat your people as bad as they do mine."
Scouts-Many-Marshes: "I think that's just their way. The Nords don't like anybody who's not a Nord, but they're not bad people, deep down."
Ambarys: "Look around you. Don't you know what their little war is about? They want all non-Nords out of Skyrim. That means you and me."
Scouts-Many-Marshes: "Oh, I doubt that very much. Who would load their ships, then?"
Ambarys: "Just you wait and see."

Apparently even the Argonian who wants you to deal with his employer about his wage doesn't hold a grudge against the Nords. The other Argonians retain a rather passive opinion of them as well, not directly hostile at all.

So unless Tullius feels like trolling Ulfric - which we cannot prove so it remains speculative - the ports should be safe generally.

 

[Jeremius]

He must have smuggled in those items, damn, the ports themselves must not be secure.

Actually, you have a 50/50 chance there.

On one hand, there's the East Empire Company in Windhelm. They claim that they try not to get involved in politics, but if the payment is high enough I'm sure they wouldn't mind transporting a few soldiers into the port as well to strike right at the origin and heart of the rebellion. And if the guards aren't able to hold up a single murderer in the city, how are they going to deal with a whole group of killers? Ulfric has his troops on battlefields and scattered throughout "his" territories in Skyrim, not at home in Windhelm.

On the other hand, look at this:

Scouts-Many-Marshes: "Why do the Nords bother you so much, Ambarys?"
Ambarys: "Why do you even need to ask? They treat your people as bad as they do mine."
Scouts-Many-Marshes: "I think that's just their way. The Nords don't like anybody who's not a Nord, but they're not bad people, deep down."
Ambarys: "Look around you. Don't you know what their little war is about? They want all non-Nords out of Skyrim. That means you and me."
Scouts-Many-Marshes: "Oh, I doubt that very much. Who would load their ships, then?"
Ambarys: "Just you wait and see."

Apparently even the Argonian who wants you to deal with his employer about his wage doesn't hold a grudge against the Nords. The other Argonians retain a rather passive opinion of them as well, not directly hostile at all.

So unless Tullius feels like trolling Ulfric - which we cannot prove so it remains speculative - the ports should be safe generally.

Again, the problem is that there is no evidence that the guards even know about the armor and flag. As far as everyone knows, that stuff is junk.

 

[Ivory]

Apparently even the Argonian who wants you to deal with his employer about his wage doesn't hold a grudge against the Nords. The other Argonians retain a rather passive opinion of them as well, not directly hostile at all.

None of the Dunmer are directly hostile to the Nords. Plus, two of the Argonians actually express their dislike for their treatment.

Encountering Stands-in-Shallows while he is at work may have him mutter: "Another day, another septim." He will also make mention of the willingness for his fellow Argonians to work in their oppressive occupations: "The young folks are too happy to break their backs for the Nords They forget what it was like to swim free." .... Argonians will instead hear: "Trust me, marsh-friend, you do not want to live in this city."

Approaching Neetrenaza will have him comment on his hatred for the Nords: "The Nords don't appreciate us, but so what? I don't appreciate them right back." He might also mention the dangers of being down on the docks: "The docks can be a dangerous place. Don't expect me to save you if you fall in."

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

None of the Dunmer are directly hostile to the Nords. Plus, two of the Argonians actually express their dislike for their treatment.

Actually Ambarys is directly hostile to the Nords:
Nords visiting the New Gnisis Cornerclub will not get a warm welcome from Ambarys. He will sarcastically say: "Oh splendid, another Nord.", or: "Come slumming to the Gray Quarter, have you?" He will have a much kinder comment for Dunmer customers: "Welcome, brother/sister. Please, enjoy yourself." He will also insult the Nord population at large with the claim that: "It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets to me. It's the stink from the people. "

 

[LegateFasendil]

Ivory said: ↑

None of the Dunmer are directly hostile to the Nords. Plus, two of the Argonians actually express their dislike for their treatment.​

Actually Ambarys is directly hostile to the Nords:
Nords visiting the New Gnisis Cornerclub will not get a warm welcome from Ambarys. He will sarcastically say: "Oh splendid, another Nord.", or: "Come slumming to the Gray Quarter, have you?" He will have a much kinder comment for Dunmer customers: "Welcome, brother/sister. Please, enjoy yourself." He will also insult the Nord population at large with the claim that: "It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets to me. It's the stink from the people. "

The Dunmer and Nords are experiencing a clash of cultures, nothing you can do about that.

Also, the Thalmor in many ways have already beaten the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

This bickering is both pointless and futile. All of you guys are acting like a bunch of little kids on the playground. Your only hope of survival is to work together. Unfortunately, yet again...

It is my conclusion that for this case, it is in the best interests of man that the Empire must prevail. The Nords and Imperials will simply have to work together in order to survive. Talos or no Talos.

The Thalmor outclass, outweight and outswag all of you knuckleheads. The worship of Talos is important however I do not see Talos approving of people worshipping him to the grave. Furthermore, it is illogical to worship a higher being, much less die to worship one. It is logical however, to respect and learn from a higher being, to serve it's intentions. But you won't be able to do any of that if you're dead.

If Ulfric and Titus Mede are not removed, your two sides will simply be paving the way in blood for the next Camoran to rule Tamriel. While I have no problem with this in the Elven sense, somehow I think you might. And Ulfric AND Titus Mede II have both proven they cannot defeat the Thalmor, they must be relieved, but the Empire DID defeat the Thalmor, though not completely but that is a start.


"A leader is judged not by the length of his reign, but by the decisions he makes."

"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory".

- Kahless the Unforgettable
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_history


Therefore, regrettably I by logic I am also forced to conclude that Emperor Mede II was correct in signing the WGC.

Regardless of my personal feelings on the matter, the Empire is in the right. Opposing the Empire is illogical and ill advised, however I can see nothing wrong with replacing Emperor Mede with someone else, although the Dragonborn might be best for this there is no way of knowing who will be the next Emperor.

While there is no way to force someone to understand this, as the Stormcloaks may or may not, I think I finally have come to terms with it. Too many universal truths sit upon this. And before someone says something about Freedom, Freedom isn't free and it isn't a right. No one is truly ever free in this life. But for those who do have Freedom comes responsibility. And the Nords responsibility to Tiber Septim and his Empire, to fix it, to undo the damage, to prevent the Thalmor from destroying it (which is what they want most), comes before whatever personal feelings you may have as a Nord or Imperial.

What true Nord would destroy the Empire? What true Imperial would leave the Nords without their Freedom(s)?

There is no fast, easy way out. Sacrifices must be made and the bond reforged in the fires of Civil War. Or you can have your Freedom... while the rest of Tamriel burns.

I do not like this conclusion or this Empire, *however* the result is logical and in this case, there is too much at stake to be making decisions based on your emotions... that is most unwise. The best chance out of this hopeless scenario is to stick to logic first and then see how you feel in the morning. XD


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

[Ivory]

Personally the best King to Rule Tamriel would be this man. Shame he isn't alive in the 4th Era

 

[LegateFasendil]

Yes sir. I like him. I like that whole faction other than the Dominion.

And Bretons kick ass anyways, always have ever since Oblivion at least.