Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

Igmund is subordinate to the High King. The Lore has it that while each Jarl has some autonomy (predicated mostly on the distances involved and a poor communication network), the High King is the maker of laws and the ultimate authority. If Igmund hadn't consulted with Torygg and gotten his, at least tacit, approval he wouldn't remain Jarl for long.

And do you think that when the Thalmor found out that a promise of free worship had been made to Ulfric that they would have by-passed the King...kept him in the dark...and dealt directly with a vassal?

If so...it's just another indication of how weak Torygg was.

If being a King is...as some wag here said...more about being a good administrator, and Torygg didn't know and approve, then he was neither--a good King nor a good administrator.

did you know that Igmund was threatened with war if he did not arrest Ulfric and go back on his promise? It was either Keep his word and risk all out war between his people and Thalmor doodoo heads, or go back on it and save his people. and saying this once again: SKYRIM WAS AN IMPERIAL STATE WHEN ULFRIC KILLED TORYGG AND AS SUCH NORDIC TRADITION OF RIGHT OF SUCESSION BY COMBAT IS NULL AND VOID!!!!

 

[Templar of Talos]

So if Ulric 'Shouted Toyrgg Apart'? Which shout did he use? Unrelenting force (the Shout Ulfric uses during the Battle of Solitude) at full strength can blow a giant off of a mountain peak, but not rip them apart. If Dovahkiin doesn't know such a shout, then I'm pretty sure Ulfric Stormcloak doesn't know it either. He disabled Toyrgg with Unrelenting Force before killing him with his weapon. An unfair move, but duelling to the death funnily enough motivates one to survive by any means.

 

[Docta Corvina]

So if Ulric 'Shouted Toyrgg Apart'? Which shout did he use? Unrelenting force (the Shout Ulfric uses during the Battle of Solitude) at full strength can blow a giant off of a mountain peak, but not rip them apart. If Dovahkiin doesn't know such a shout, then I'm pretty sure Ulfric Stormcloak doesn't know it either. He disabled Toyrgg with Unrelenting Force before killing him with his weapon. An unfair move, but duelling to the death funnily enough motivates one to survive by any means.

As I was musing earlier, I don't even think it really matters what shout it was or what the mechanics were. If Torygg truly was considerably weaker when matched against Ulfric with regards to combat prowess and the latter's victory was basically a foregone conclusion, why was the Shout needed in the first place? I still say it goes back to his overall pattern of self-aggrandizement. Unflattering and unbecoming, to say the least.

 

[Jeremius]

So if Ulric 'Shouted Toyrgg Apart'? Which shout did he use? Unrelenting force (the Shout Ulfric uses during the Battle of Solitude) at full strength can blow a giant off of a mountain peak, but not rip them apart. If Dovahkiin doesn't know such a shout, then I'm pretty sure Ulfric Stormcloak doesn't know it either. He disabled Toyrgg with Unrelenting Force before killing him with his weapon. An unfair move, but duelling to the death funnily enough motivates one to survive by any means.

except that Ulfric was a better warrior than Torygg and had no reason to use the shout, he only needed to parry Torygg's attack then kill him. Unless Elisif's clour lied and Torygg actually was a better fighter than Ulfric, and if he did kill him with his weapon, where is his body so i can see it myself so i can know that Ulfric is indeed the rightful high king and then sign all my characters on with him. otherwise my knights stay loyal to the empire.

 

[Flint firestorm]

No his wife is high king/queen according to nordic tradition

 

[DWFII]

Only if you're completely ignorant about early United States history. The American War for Independence was an authorized act of the Second Continental Congress whose representatives were appointed by the duly elected legislatures of the 13 American Colonies.

And what authority did they have? King George would have said... did say...none. General Gage and Howe would have said none.


The interpretation and speculation is all on your side. And relies entirely on you buying into the Imperioal cause.

the Loyalists were in the distinct minority with the a considerably larger plurality supporting the Colonial independence and the remaining (also larger) plurality sitting on the fence.

Never said they weren't...it's a lot like Skyrim. Ever seen a map of blue and red flags? It's about 3/8ths Stormcloak and 5/8ths Imperial. But that doesn't mean that everyone who is in Imperial territory is sympathetic to that cause. You can find them whereever you go...expressing tentative and timorous reservations about the Empire. Wonder what they've got to fear?

This further illustrates your ignorance not only of the lore of the game but what is said in the game itself. Nothing I said contradicts anything Sybille Stentor says in the game. The right of challenge doesn't entitle the victor to the throne of the High King. It only confers the right to dethrone the current High King. It's up to the Moot to decide who becomes the next High King afterwards as confirmed both by the lore and what Ulfric himself says in the game.

Nothing in the Lore, that I am aware of contradicts, the legal claim of Ulfric to be High King. In fact, there is a book written by a Redguard, IIRC (how unbiased can you get?) that suggest the Moot doesn't really have any power at all. Skyrim's Rule: An Outsider's View by Abdul-Mujib Ababneh.

That said, in real life cultures where this system of government was in place, the strongman always is confirmed by the Moot or the dissenters replaced until the Moot can and will confirm.

Actions speak louder than words, and one can observe many actions on Ulfric's part that are not easy to reconcile with his taking the interests of Skyrim over his own

Cite them...substantiated by what you, as a player have seen and verified with your own eyes, or which the Lore gives credence to...and then we'll review the Empire's actions and their benign motives. Let me count the ways...!!!

No, I don't think Ulfric is perfect. George Washington was considered arrogant and aloof (the responsibility and the stresses of command will do that, nevermind the people who think they are better suited). Monty resented the choice of Eisenhower as Supreme Commander and had little good to say about him.

 

[Templar of Talos]

I agree that Ulfric is an absolute knob and should not be king, I've stated who should be King on several occasions. However. I have a theory as to WHY he shouted Toyrgg and would like an opinion before this thread which I remind you started out as a possible new player asking advice to which side he should choose for his character descends into a free-for-all plopsstorm.

Okay, it's been stated that Ulfric said he killed Toyrgg as a 'Message to the other Jarls'.. Okay that can be taken in two contexts. A) an Intimidation attempt by Ulfric to bully the other Jarls to join him... OR B) A show of strength by Ulfric to somehow inspire the other Jarls by diplaying a power he, as a Man, learned that can be perceived more superior than any Magic the Altmer can muster. In essence, he was saying, "Get behind me, we can free Skyrim united, We'll show those Elves what 'Nord' Magic can do" (Remember, all races of Man with the exception of the Redguards are decendants of Nords, Imperials included).

What Ulfric SHOULD have done, was to shout at Toyrgg in some insane way of inspiring the king into action. But as I said, Ulfric is a knob. So...

 

[Jeremius]

DFWII: you do realize that those sources that the Nords are "based" off of were always at war. and Skyrim was a part of the empire since the Talos days, so it would stand to reason that the position of high king would be more a represenative position of the imperial rule. things change, Ulfric's case is "let the strong rule, we will bring the 'old ways' back and show those elves who's boss.

if he wanted to slaughter why not ask the companions to allow him to take Wuthraad, i am sure the Harbinger (my knight) will allow him to....that is if he wanted to swear fealty to me as high king, i can be diplomatic and a warrior.

 

[DWFII]

No his wife is high king/queen according to nordic tradition

I don't think so...give us some evidence to support that assertion.

Interestingly enough, if Ulfric wins , Jarl Elisif is allowed to keep her head and her position.

Is there a corresponding act of wisdom and conciliation if the Empire wins?

 

[Jeremius]

^with all the stormcloak soldiers there after the war, i think Elisif was coerced into following Ulfric.

 

[Flint firestorm]

I don't think so...give us some evidence to support that assertion.

Interestingly enough, if Ulfric wins , Jarl Elisif is allowed to keep her head and her position.

Is there a corresponding act of wisdom and conciliation if the Empire wins?

From the lore on the moot:The Moot is a board of representatives, one from each Hold in Skyrim, which is convened upon the death of the High King of Skyrim to choose the successor from any qualified members of the royal family. As far as I can tell she is qualified.

 

[Templar of Talos]

We don't even know if Ulfric is Mooted in as High King, for all we know it could end up being Maven Black-Briar in some kind of political coup. Then Talos help us.

But until another (IF) DLC is released that updates the individual choice (Imperial or Stormcloak) with a new High King and a plan to batter seven shades out of the Dagger-Ears and burn Summerset Isles to ashes. I'm not making any assumptions.

EDIT> Oh yes, I hate the Thalmor. Not the Empire, but the Thalmor. I hate them just as much as the Nazi pilot that dropped the bomb that hit the street where my grandmother live and blew her back through her front door as she was going out dancing... She did dust herself off and went out anyway. The spirit of South London women .... But proof that WWII did happen.

 

[Docta Corvina]

EDIT> Oh yes, I hate the Thalmor. Not the Empire, but the Thalmor

Amen to that! There's something we can all agree on...I think!

 

[Flint firestorm]

Off course h will be voted in when her gets rid of every jarl who disagrees with him

 

[Templar of Talos]

Amen to that! There's something we can all agree on...I think!

We do agree, added some more though as a correction to certain assumptions

 

[Star Gazer]

Ulfric let Elisif live. Let's think about that for a moment. On Ulfric's side, when he wins, he doesnt slaughter and imprison all who believed in the empire. But on Tullius' side, anyone even seen worshipping talos is to be put in jail! What I'm trying to say is... Ulfric was a lot more fair when he won. No one went to the chopping block, except those who fought back of course, but Tullius tried to hunt down everyone who believed that they should be allowed the right to worship who they please!

 

[Templar of Talos]

Off course h will be voted in when her gets rid of every jarl who disagrees with him

Thats possible, I wouldn't put it past him to do so... I agree with you there

 

[Janus3003]

Ulfric let Elisif live. Let's think about that for a moment. On Ulfric's side, when he wins, he doesnt slaughter and imprison all who believed in the empire. But on Tullius' side, anyone even seen worshipping talos is to be put in jail!

I won the Civil War for the Empire quite a while ago, and Heimskr's still bellowing about Talos in Whiterun. Heck, the jarls that supported Ulfric are all hanging out in Windhelm, alive, well, and pissed off.

 

[DWFII]

You on the other hand are trying to paint Ulfric as without fault.

And there are many reasons as to why Torygg would NOT have wanted independence. Whether you like it or not, Skyrim depended on the Empire for numerous goods and trade. If they were to succeed from the Empire, all that aid and support would be gone. A King/Emperor/Leader has to put all of this into perspective when making a huge decision like this.

First, Ulfric is not without fault. And I never said he was. No human being is and great men tend to have great faults. But he is the man of the hour. Who moreso? who has the vision? the passion? [No one, save maybe the DragonBorn and he goes around bullying anyone and everyone with his Thuum].

As with any leader, the ideas and goals are more important than the man himself. Indeed those goals themselves propel the man more often than he them.

As for Skyrim's independence...nonsense, I say.

An independent Skyrim has no reason not to seek and welcome Trade. In fact, having to support itself without Imperial subsidies, it would be critical that it did.

The only downside to an independent Skyrim is that the Empire would probably have to pay fair market value for the things it is buying or looting.

 

[Jeremius]

Ulfric let Elisif live. Let's think about that for a moment. On Ulfric's side, when he wins, he doesnt slaughter and imprison all who believed in the empire. But on Tullius' side, anyone even seen worshipping talos is to be put in jail! What I'm trying to say is... Ulfric was a lot more fair when he won. No one went to the chopping block, except those who fought back of course, but Tullius tried to hunt down everyone who believed that they should be allowed the right to worship who they please!

repeat after me thal-mor they are the ones arresting people, and they are only doing so because the EMpire would not support the WGC and arrest Ulfric during the Markarth Incident.