Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jersey Dagmar]

Please tell me how the Empire is oppressing Skyrim? And please, don't say because of the Talos worship. The Colonies had a legitimate reasons to rebel against the British Crown. The most major one being Taxation without Representation.

And, as I've said before countless times, the Empire nor the Thalmor wouldn't even be in Skyrim if it wasn't for Ulfric.

Ulfric says repeatedly that if he could withdraw from the concerns of the world he would. He even says he doesn't want to be High king...

Saying it, and actually meaning it are two different things. While Ulfric may say he doesn't want the throne, his actions say otherwise.

 

[DWFII]

Since DWFll says to judge them on there actions I'll judge Ulfric.
Fact. He shouted Torygg apart. Many eye witnesses and no body to bury
Fact. He killed civilians in Markearth . Saying "your with me or against skyrim"
Fact. He fails to look after former soldiers. Angrenor once honored is a begger after being to injured to keep fighting.
This is not an exact quote but Ive heard Galmar something along the lines of "why don't you just shout them apart like you did Torygg?" and Ulfric replies "Torygg was just a message to the other Jarls...." meaning that he admits doing it
Fact. Ulfric refuses to help anyone but Nords. He refuses to help dark elf caravans.
Fact. A woman in riften was imprisoned for speaking out against ulfric.
Fact. If Ulfric wins the war he does not get rid of the Thalmar embassy.

The lore doesn't support that. It's opinion and biased opinion.

Jarl Igmond says that he recruited Ulfric asking him to lead a "militia" (ostensibly so that the Empire wouldn't have to do the dirty work) against the Forsworn. Up until the subsequent betrayal and arrest, as far as we know Ulfric was a loyal Imperial> His previous military experience was fighting for the Empire.

Every city in Skyrim has these beggers...Solitude, Windhelm, Whiterun, Riften. Do you hold the Empire to these same standards. A case can be made that the Nords pulled theEmpires chestnuts out of the fire in the Great war.

If it's not an exact quote it's hearsay...by definition.

There are no dark Elf caravans I've heard of. Khajiit and/or Khajiit caravans are not allowed in any city in Skyrim. Nor do any of the other Holds go out of their way to help them AFAIK.

Cite the time and place and incident in Riften so that I can confirm that myself. Otherwise it's hearsay. Beyond that, as far as I am aware Ulfric is jarl in Windhelm.

If Empire wins the war nothing changes in Windhelm except Brunhwuff becomes jarl. The grey quarter remains as it is...as it has been for the last 150 years--unswept and unpainted. And Thalmor patrols will still be roving around Skyrim collecting people to torture and execute and intelligence to strengthen their military position against the Empire.

 

[DWFII]

To be legitamet he has oto be voted in by the moot

As long as the Moot is composed of Imperial sycophants that will never happen. But the Lore seems to contradict your claim anyway. The Moot can confirm...only confirm...in these kinds of cases they cannot propose without someone from among their ranks challenging Ulfric's right to be High King..

 

[Janus3003]

Cite the time and place and incident in Riften so that I can confirm that myself. Otherwise it's hearsay.

Threki the Innocent: Skyrim:Threki the Innocent - UESPWiki
Granted, you only have her word on it, and she remains there even if the Imperials win the war (but I don't exactly trust Maven Black-Briar to be a fair jarl).

 

[DWFII]

just being strong does not a good ruler make. in my opinion Elisif would make a better high queen because she seems more willing to compromise than Ulfric is. the guy seems to be more war-mongering than any other Jarl. Even Jarl B-of-whiterun makes a better high king....

That may be true in a technocracy. It is not true...never was...in a quasi-10thcentury feudal system.

 

[Flint firestorm]

The women is always there. There is no body and everyone but the guy who did it says he shouted Torygg apart. Your making It like a court case with many witnesses but the judge ignores them because he didn't see it. Refuge caravans.
(sorry not detailed. On phone)

 

[DWFII]

Please tell me how the Empire is oppressing Skyrim? And please, don't say because of the Talos worship. The Colonies had a legitimate reasons to rebel against the British Crown. The most major one being Taxation without Representation.

And, as I've said before countless times, the Empire nor the Thalmor wouldn't even be in Skyrim if it wasn't for Ulfric.



Saying it, and actually meaning it are two different things. While Ulfric may say he doesn't want the throne, his actions say otherwise.

You can say it all you like but it doesn't make it true or even verifiable. The Thalmor patrols are arresting people for their religion. They are torturing them and summarily executing them without giving them any recourse to the laws of Skyrim or to real justice. It is all to easy to dismiss these people and their deaths because they are one at a time and we only see this happening when we run the roads (as opposed to fast traveling).

Presumably...in fact the Lore substantiates it...the Empire is fine with a foreign power and a shadow judiciary encroaching on its sovereignty. Or they are just looking the other way. I wonder which is ethically worse?

The Empire desperately wants to hold onto Skyrim for its resources--Cidna mine and so forth. And for it's connection with Hammerfell. It's all about money and resources.

It thinks it will have an ally and a willing cadre of warriors when it finally gets enough courage to confront the Dominion.

But the better course would be to let Skyrim go. An independent Skyrim that has not suffered the horrors of a Civil War is the last thing that Thalmor want. It would represent a drain on their resources to deal with in a way that having Imperial soldiers doing their dirty work does not.

And an independent Skyrim would be a far more willing and cooperative ally to the Empire against the Dominion, esp. after the recent atrocities committed by the Thalmor, than a Skyrim that is beaten, drained and resentful.

And if Ulfric wins the Civil War...and the end games suggest that without the Dragonborn on the Imperial side, he would (because the emperor will send no reinforcements to Tullius), Skyrim will go its own way, make an alliance with Hammerfell and in a "turn about is fair play" they may very well cede Cyrodill to the Dominion.

 

[DWFII]

The women is always there. There is no body and everyone but the guy who did it says he shouted Torygg apart. Your making It like a court case with many witnesses but the judge ignores them because he didn't see it. Refuge caravans.
(sorry not detailed. On phone)

That's the only way to actually prove anything--to look at who has a vested interest in "spinning" and what is irrefutable. As I suggested...everything else is trial by innuendo and gossip. Guild by association. Kangaroo court. Mob justice. Not a very honourable way to condemn anyone.

But one that seems very common in our contemporary society.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Torygg has nothing to lose by telling the truth so why lie? Where as Ulfric has every thing to lose

 

[DWFII]

No I meant dark elf caravans. Talk to mr free winter (can't remamber his first name) he will tell you about the attacks and how Ulfric does nothing

You mean Brunwuff? When he's jarl of Windhelm, he does nothing either. Seems like the probelm is something other than the way you portray it. More intractable?

The dark elves were invited into Skyrim and Windhelm 150 years ago. From what the Lore suggest, they were ceded the Snow quarter with out any reservations or monetary compensation (read the Decree of Monument).

The Lore also suggests that Dark Elves are distrustful of others and prefer their own people "clannish" is the word used. so they've been in the Snow/Grey quarter for 150 years seemingly without brooms or paint or the money to by such.

And they're complaining because Ulfric, who is trying to fund and inspire a push towards Independence doesn't kick others out of their house in Windhelm and give them tax breaks.

Wah, wah, wah...

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Long ass unneeded post.

You are missing, or purposely going over what I said entirely. If it wasn't for Ulfric's actions, the Empire and the Thalmor would NOT be in Skyrim. Thus, there would not be people being dragged off because of Talos worship. Seriously, you seen have the Priest in Whiterun who spouts Talos crap everyday for hours. Where are the Thalmor to haul his ass away?

 

[DWFII]

Torygg has nothing to lose by telling the truth so why lie? Where as Ulfric has every thing to lose

Ulfric freely admits to killing Torygg. Where's the lie? Ulfric freely admits he used a shout. Where's the lie? Ulfric freely admits that he used the shout to send a message. Wheres' the lie?

 

[Star Gazer]

unless he lied about killing Torygg, and the entire Skyrim plot was just a surprise birthday party for the Dragonborn!

 

[Jeremius]

Ulfric freely admits to killing Torygg. Where's the lie? Ulfric freely admits he used a shout. Where's the lie? Ulfric freely admits that he used the shout to send a message. Wheres' the lie?

there is no lie, but Ulfric using a shout is like using a rifle in a duel where it is stated that they can only use handguns

• Torygg pulls his handgun (sword)
• Ulfric removes the handgun with his rifle (disables Torygg w/shout)
• Ulfric then pulls his own handgun (sword) and kills torygg

where in the lore Does it say that Torygg knew Ulfric was going to do that. unless Ulfric told him before the duel began that he was going to use the voice to disable him i cannot see that duel as anything other than over-glorified regicide.

 

[Flint firestorm]

He lied by saying he stabbed him in the heart. He shouted him apart. WHERES THE BODY?

 

[Docta Corvina]

And they're complaining because Ulfric, who is trying to fund and inspire a push towards Independence doesn't kick others out of their house in Windhelm and give them tax breaks.

Wah, wah, wah...

"Wah, wah, wah", eh? Interesting characterization.

I'm fairly certain that the broader point people were trying to make was that Ulfric has not followed through on all of his obligations as Jarl. He is obligated - whether he's decided to make war or not - to protect all of the people of his hold. That constituency is supposed to be guaranteed resources and aid ("damns given" by any other name) regardless of race. Of course, when it's not politically expedient for him to do so, he does not expend the effort. And has not, whether we're talking about turning a wholly disinterested eye to the Dark Elves or a deaf ear to Khajit caravans in distress outside the city. And that is fundamentally problematic.

And indeed, Brunwulf freely admits that change will be gradual in Windhelm, not an overnight miracle. I at least was pleased with the assurances that things would take a turn for the better. The renewed hope in the populace there (expressed by both non-Nord and Nord) was quite satisfying.

 

[Epic Keith]

He lied by saying he stabbed him in the heart. He shouted him apart. WHERES THE BODY?

Shouted him apart? LOL

You actually believe that lie? Torrygg would have a shrine but Bethesda didn't make it. Simple

 

[Epic Keith]

"Wah, wah, wah", eh? Interesting characterization.

I'm fairly certain that the broader point people were trying to make was that Ulfric has not followed through on all of his obligations as Jarl. He is obligated - whether he's decided to make war or not - to protect all of the people of his hold. That constituency is supposed to be guaranteed resources and aid ("damns given" by any other name) regardless of race. Of course, when it's not politically expedient for him to do so, he does not exude the effort. And has not, whether we're talking about turning a wholly disinterested eye to the Dark Elves or a deaf ear to Khajit caravans in distress outside the city. And that is fundamentally problematic.

And indeed, Brunwulf freely admits that change will be gradual in Windhelm, not an overnight miracle. I at least was pleased with the assurances that things would take a turn for the better. The renewed hope in the populace there (expressed by both non-Nord and Nord) was quite satisfying.

The point he was trying to make is to some idiot asked why Ulfric didn't rid of the Thalmor Embassy, so he replied with the proof that Brunwulf didn't do much either. And the Thalmor Embassy is essential for the Main Questline

 

[Flint firestorm]

No because there's no body. Simple. His wife says there as nothing left to bury

 

[Flint firestorm]

The point he was trying to make is to some idiot asked why Ulfric didn't rid of the Thalmor Embassy, so he replied with the proof that Brunwulf didn't do much either. And the Thalmor Embassy is essential for the Main Questline

What about the thalmar base on the coast?