Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Tyer032392]

Either one will work! An independent Skyrim or a United Empire is better than a damn civil war! I believe everyone knows this!

One problem though, an independent Skyrim would require decades at least to rebuild to her former glory before the Civil War. If Skyrim were still in the Empire, than that would be hastened ten fold with the Empire sending Legionary Engineers to help the holds rebuild. Than you also have the problem with the bandits plaguing Skyrim, and the Stormcloak (Royal Skyrim Army as I like to call them) would have a very hard time quelling the bandits. Than you have the dragon problem, and Skyrim is in more of a mess, granted this in of itself is not Ulfric's fault (with the dragons that is). And if Esbern was correct about no one knowing the prophecy of the Dragonborn, than Ulfric inadvertently instigated the dragon crises.

 

[Ivory]

A milkdrinker. He'll be killed before even joining the Stormcloaks.

So? Are you going to ignore the fact that there are nords who would betray their brothers to the Thalmor as he had? These kinds of people will be your demise. You can't be racist to your own kind thinking they are all spies now can you? This shows the Dominion doesn't need Wood elves, Khajiit or High elven spies. Nordic spies are there. They exist and you calling him a milkdrinker doesn't change that the Thalmor have the power to put more spies in your homelands.

 

[Ivory]

Hes classified as a beggar you know.

So? He's still a Nord. Are you claiming only lower class Nords can be spies? Don't be so blind.

 

[Vatonage]

One problem though, an independent Skyrim would require decades at least to rebuild to her former glory before the Civil War. If Skyrim were still in the Empire, than that would be hastened ten fold with the Empire sending Legionary Engineers to help the holds rebuild. Than you also have the problem with the bandits plaguing Skyrim, and the Stormcloak (Royal Skyrim Army as I like to call them) would have a very hard time quelling the bandits. Than you have the dragon problem, and Skyrim is in more of a mess, granted this in of itself is not Ulfric's fault (with the dragons that is). And if Esbern was correct about no one knowing the prophecy of the Dragonborn, than Ulfric inadvertently instigated the dragon crises.

Prophecies would happen one way or another. An Elder scroll forces it to happen, therefore Ulfric didn't instigate it, the Scroll did. Regardless, would the Empire not have similar problems? With an Independent Skyrim, all Nords would be working to make sure she is restored promptly. Independence would invigorate the people, along with them believing Talos is blessing them now that he can be freely worshipped!

 

[Vatonage]

So? He's still a Nord. Are you claiming only lower class Nords can be spies? Don't be so blind.

They are more likely. Coin is better than loyalty at that point.

 

[Ivory]

Prophecies would happen one way or another. An Elder scroll forces it to happen, therefore Ulfric didn't instigate it, the Scroll did. Regardless, would the Empire not have similar problems? With an Independent Skyrim, all Nords would be working to make sure she is restored promptly. Independence would invigorate the people, along with them believing Talos is blessing them now that he can be freely worshipped!

This contradicts lore. What's written in the Elder Scrolls is vague, and ever changing. The actions of man and mer have proven this time and time again. With an Independant Skyrim, there would still be a divide amongst the populace between those loyal to the Empire and those against it. The infighting, the war crimes and persecutions would not stop. The loyalists of the Empire would be scrutinized by their own people for not fighting with the rebels. "If they're not with us, they're against us"

Don't delude yourself into thinking once the stormcloaks win, every nord will be happy and roses.

 

[Ivory]

So? He's still a Nord. Are you claiming only lower class Nords can be spies? Don't be so blind.

They are more likely. Coin is better than loyalty at that point.

Wrong. Greed affects people of every class. Or are there rich people who are not greedy and unloyal?

 

[Raijin]

Hes classified as a beggar you know.

So? He's still a Nord. Are you claiming only lower class Nords can be spies? Don't be so blind.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Deserter

A good imperial Solider is a skooma addict.

 

[Ivory]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Deserter

A good imperial Solider is a skooma addict.

And? This further proves my point. People of every race and culture and class can desert their homeland and people. It's happened in real life and in this game.

 

[Vatonage]

This contradicts lore. What's written in the Elder Scrolls is vague, and ever changing. The actions of man and mer have proven this time and time again. With an Independant Skyrim, there would still be a divide amongst the populace between those loyal to the Empire and those against it. The infighting, the war crimes and persecutions would not stop. The loyalists of the Empire would be scrutinized by their own people for not fighting with the rebels. "If they're not with us, they're against us"

Don't delude yourself into thinking once the stormcloaks win, every nord will be happy and roses.

A United Skyrim would be plagued by the remnants of the Rebellion even more. It would be prolonged and attempt avengeance by plaguing the Empire's progress. It would be equal or greater than the Independent one.

Honestly, though I have no clue about the Elder Scrolls. They just seem so underdeveloped in game, "They are everything and nothing, they are a big contradiction so they can do anything".

 

[Tyer032392]

Prophecies would happen one way or another. An Elder scroll forces it to happen, therefore Ulfric didn't instigate it, the Scroll did. Regardless, would the Empire not have similar problems? With an Independent Skyrim, all Nords would be working to make sure she is restored promptly. Independence would invigorate the people, along with them believing Talos is blessing them now that he can be freely worshipped!

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding.
The world-Eater wakes, and the wheel turns upon the last Dragonborn.

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding: Kinda hard to say that Ulfric had nothing to do with Alduin's return when he in fact did kill the High King and instigate a civil war.

Hopefully, you can see that Ulfric's action had ushered the return of Alduin, as was prophesied. Also, the Empire is still Talos's empire, so I think he would be upset with Ulfric tearing the Empire apart, and diverting their resources from their true foe, the Aldermi Dominion and the Thalmor. If Tiber Septim was still in power, I bet he would of kicked Ulfric's keyster first, than the Dominion for doing what they did to his name.

 

[Vatonage]

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding.
The world-Eater wakes, and the wheel turns upon the last Dragonborn.

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding: Kinda hard to say that Ulfric had nothing to do with Alduin's return when he in fact did kill the High King and instigate a civil war.

Hopefully, you can see that Ulfric's action had ushered the return of Alduin, as was prophesied. Also, the Empire is still Talos's empire, so I think he would be upset with Ulfric tearing the Empire apart, and diverting their resources from their true foe, the Aldermi Dominion and the Thalmor. If Tiber Septim was still in power, I bet he would of kicked Ulfric's keyster first, than the Dominion for doing what they did to his name.

Had Torygg survived, guess what, averted. It didn't say "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, murdered." It doesn't focus on who killed what, just the vacancy of the Throne. Its too vague to blame anyone.

 

[Ivory]

A United Skyrim would be plagued by the remnants of the Rebellion even more. It would be prolonged and attempt avengeance by plaguing the Empire's progress. It would be equal or greater than the Independent one.

Honestly, though I have no clue about the Elder Scrolls. They just seem so underdeveloped in game, "They are everything and nothing, they are a big contradiction so they can do anything".

The Empire has far more resources than an Independant skyrim and will have no trouble dealing with the rebellion at the death of Ulfric. Will it be roses and happy thoughts? Never. There will always be Nords who are Stormcloaks, but the Empire has bigger fish to fry, and with their resources? They can recover from a civil war quicker than independant Skyrim.

 

[Tyer032392]

Had Torygg survived, guess what, averted. It didn't say "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, murdered." It doesn't focus on who killed what, just the vacancy of the Throne. Its too vague to blame anyone.

If Torygg had survived and killed Ulfric in his fight, than the Civil War would never of had happened, and Alduin's return would of been delayed. The civil war would also be out of the question as every Nord would see that Torygg would have the power to not only defend himself, but Skyrim as well. Had Torygg denied Ulfric's request for a challenge, than Ulfric would of had the legal responsibility to call a moot and elect a new High King as Torygg failed to do what was required in his power.

 

[Vatonage]

The Empire has far more resources than an Independant skyrim and will have no trouble dealing with the rebellion at the death of Ulfric. Will it be roses and happy thoughts? Never. There will always be Nords who are Stormcloaks, but the Empire has bigger fish to fry, and with their resources? They can recover from a civil war quicker than independant Skyrim.

The Empire was stretched thin with the war. Its not like they can hire some mages to conjure up infinite resources, its an EMPIRE, vast, and needing many things attended. Skyrim probably isn't on the top of their list. An Independent Skyrim can go weaken the Thalmor in some way, either a suicidal war or other methods, but the Empire can go "Wasn't me." It could be an indirect attack on them. Then when the Thalmor are about to invade, they could re invade Skyrim and stop them. Or wait for the Thalmor to strike after quelling the original rebellion and lose during their vulnerable post war state.

 

[Vatonage]

If Torygg had survived and killed Ulfric in his fight, than the Civil War would never of had happened, and Alduin's return would of been delayed. The civil war would also be out of the question as every Nord would see that Torygg would have the power to not only defend himself, but Skyrim as well. Had Torygg denied Ulfric's request for a challenge, than Ulfric would of had the legal responsibility to call a moot and elect a new High King as Torygg failed to do what was required in his power.

Exactly.

 

[Ivory]

The Empire was stretched thin with the war. Its not like they can hire some mages to conjure up infinite resources, its an EMPIRE, vast, and needing many things attended. Skyrim probably isn't on the top of their list. An Independent Skyrim can go weaken the Thalmor in some way, either a suicidal war or other methods, but the Empire can go "Wasn't me." It could be an indirect attack on them. Then when the Thalmor are about to invade, they could re invade Skyrim and stop them. Or wait for the Thalmor to strike after quelling the original rebellion and lose during their vulnerable post war state.

1. The Empire is still Two, if not three times bigger than an Independant skyrim, more so if Skyrim stays with the Empire.
2. How will an Independant Skyrim weaken the Thalmor? They will be too busy recovering from the war for YEARS. Way until Ulfric has probably passed in death. They lack resources they get from the Empire if they become independant and High Rock and Morrowind definitely will not help an Independant skyrim. Not when High Rock has a war to win and Morrowind is barely alive because of the Argonian invasion.
3. How would an Independant Skyrim even get to Summerset Isle? Where would they get the Resources?

The Thalmor isn't just one Province. It's three. And part of lower hammerfell I think. Even Skyrim couldn't handle three provinces when the Empire doesn't even use most of its military power to hold half of skyrim.

 

[Vatonage]

1. The Empire is still Two, if not three times bigger than an Independant skyrim, more so if Skyrim stays with the Empire.
2. How will an Independant Skyrim weaken the Thalmor? They will be too busy recovering from the war for YEARS. Way until Ulfric has probably passed in death. They lack resources they get from the Empire if they become independant and High Rock and Morrowind definitely will not help an Independant skyrim. Not when High Rock has a war to win and Morrowind is barely alive because of the Argonian invasion.
3. How would an Independant Skyrim even get to Summerset Isle? Where would they get the Resources?

The Thalmor isn't just one Province. It's three. And part of lower hammerfell I think. Even Skyrim couldn't handle three provinces when the Empire doesn't even use most of its military power to hold half of skyrim.

Symbolic victory. They fought for their religion and what they thought was unfair, and won. I still support the Stormcloaks 100%. Seeing as how everyone else left this argument, possibly due to it being far too gray and immense, evident of Bethesda's wonderful lore, I'm probably going to go entertain myself with something else. Probably. Good conversation, btw. I commend you both.

 

[Tyer032392]

An interesting thought about Ulfric versus Torygg, the Civil War, and the return of the Dragonborn. Personally, I believe that it was destined for a high king to die, who, no one knew. Torygg and Ulfric were simply in the right place at the right time, and through Torygg's death, and a king-less Skyrim, Ulfric had also inadvertently made another contender for the Throne of Skyrim, and that is the Dragonborn, who by right is the true High King. I personally see a marriage between Elisif and the Dragonborn as being far more likely after the rebellion, and any Stormcloak supporter that isn't in Ulfric's pockets to side with the Dragonborn.

Edit: "Long has the Storm Crown languished with no worthy brow to sit upon. By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of Old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Hearken to it." Greybeards.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Being a true Nord means fighting when you know you are going to lose. Ulfric did not do that. Therefore, he is absolutely not a true Nord, and thus a coward/

Actually he did when you guy's sieged his city. He fought and died valiantly. I've already mentioned this several times. However, you must be too thick to understand you close minded Imperial dog!! Rot in Oblivion.

He dies for a song, not his beliefs, if he had any.

GOD!? Its obvious he fights for more than just the Throne.