Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Anouck]

I've been so neutral in this, my pH is 7

PHYSICS HUMOR FTW​

 

[imaginepageant]

 

[AS88]

I was about to tell y'all to get back on topic,

...

 

[Rimfaxe96]

We've been through this already The Stormcloks as a military organization are not racists. Xenophobia yes but not racists.

Oh and as far as mods go:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=241400631&searchtext=

it already exists.

I wasn't talking about racism or the like. I was talking about dislike in general, which is something you cannot deny.

And... wow. Some people really know how to do detail-work on Skyrim. But I haven't ever modded yet and unless it's for one of those cut quests I have no intent to do it.
Although, I must admit downloading the Creation Kit does sound interesting. Not for modding, rather for having access to all the data. I wonder how much else they've cut out...

 

[Raijin]

They don't really trust the College of Winterhold, but who can blame them? The city of Winterhold was largely destroyed under mysterious circumstances, and the College looked untouched to them. Throw in Oblivion Crisis and the Aldmeri Dominion which have majority magic users.

That is when hypocrisy comes in. They don't trust the College of Winterhold yet still conduct business with them? Why would they do business with a company that you really don't trust? That's insane!

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00037ed0
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00037ed1

Kraldar seems to believe that the college had nothing to do with what happen to Winterhold. He seems to think outside of the box. I do trust his wisdom far more than I do with Jarl Korir.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000949c4

 

[NENALATA]

Wow! It's like... it's like I don't even know you guys anymore.

Perhaps I never did.

Prejudging Mage was wrong of me sure, however somewhere deep inside I'm sure he's still an Imperial. But that's not my call to make.

I have never refused to acknowledge when I was wrong. Hell, I just did. It's just that you have never been able to prove it.

And you did call me a liar just now. Clearly.

It's just that some of you folks don't have to admit you're wrong because of the luxury of your friends.

So says the Iron to Forge when it's harvested.

Saying I'm this and that doesn't prove it is true Anouck and Imagine.

I don't think people were talking about your prejudging of DrunkenMage. They were talking about not admitting your mistakes when you make them. And now you try to show they're wrong by admitting a random other mistake. I might be wrong but I think people are trying to make it clear to you that Ulfric was not to blame for what happened in Hammerfell. I could mention reasons but others already have before me. Giving in on the stuff you said about Mage doesn't make your argument about Hammerfell less or more correct.

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower. Which was not a mistake because in the end, he wasn't sure what he wanted. Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

 

[NENALATA]

never even countered one of my arguments

'Ulfric didn't aid Hammerfell' - Nenalata argument

Mage Counter: The Journal you mentioned, that says Redguards don't like Ulfric for not aiding them The sleeping bear of Skyrim, who would not come to aid us in Hammerfell, awakens now that the Empire has abandoned them as well.

She is not talking about Ulfric, but the Nords who are now in open rebellion. The Bear which is the sigil they are rallying behind, I know it is somewhat easy to confuse that was being Ulfric himself. But, it simply isn't, she is just talking about the Nords in general who are fighting the Empire.

Ulfric himself, could not have aided Hammerfell.

1) Ulfric was in prison.

2) A Nord militia taking back a city, is hardly an army to fight in a distant province.

3) Supplies needed for this kind of venture... are coming from? Windhelm is going to fund an entire war in another province?

4) The Stormcloaks didn't become who they are now, until only a few months ago in 4E 201. Ulfric didn't have all those supporters, until he killed High King Torygg. So where is he getting these soldiers to attack the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell, twenty years before he even had an army.

5) Don't you think if Ulfric were to simply leave Skyrim to attack the Thalmor, the Imperials bound by treaty who actually dropped Hammerfell because they were fighting the Thalmor, are going to simply not take control of Windhelm? Cut off the entire supply chain, and brand Ulfric and his men criminals in violation of the peace?

Conclusion: Argument countered.

No it isn't. You are only seeing what you want to see. First of all, it's what SHE thinks. It's what the REDGUARDS think and that journal gives us a very good indication from lore about what their feelings are on the subject.

And they blame the Nords for not helping them.

Again this is classic. The Markarth Incident happened during those 4 yrs after the WGC was signed and Ulfric EARNED the Title Bear of Markarth during that time. So no Mage, you are wrong.

 

[Anouck]

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower. Which was not a mistake because in the end, he wasn't sure what he wanted. Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

...And this basically is the problem. You keep repeating nobody proved you wrong, yet DrunkenMage, imaginepageant and Raijin did. I really hope you're just misunderstanding this or don't see what exactly it is we are on about. If not, then I simply don't know what to say to you anymore. What are you going to say to a person who will keep repeating the sky is green?

You only have to go one page back to see a post that proves you wrong. Go back another page and other people's replies pop up. You just simply refuse to acknowledge that. Ulfric can not be blamed for not assisting in Hammerfell. People have been telling you that over and over again.

How can you even claim no one proved you wrong when there has been an overwhelming amount of posts that proves the opposite?

You've done exactly what I said you would do. Which is acting like everyone is teaming up and using their so called 'popularity' against you. And as always, you somehow blame Mage in a way that I don't even understand.

People don't go against your argument because you went against Mage. Your argument actually predates Mage's statement. They go against it because it is wrong. Simple as that.

 

[Raijin]

I'm just waiting for the time when DM changes to supporting the Thalmor.

I think we can all agree that by allowing him to stay on this thread and eat, sleep and breathe the Civil War for the past 750 pages we have created a monster of mass procrastination that cannot be stopped.

I'm actually (---) close of becoming an Aldmeri Dominion supporter.

Not sure if this counts as accurate lore but this makes sense to me, and I support it considering the fact to what I've been exposed to in Skyrim.

"I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us. - Queen Ayrenn"

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en-uk/game-guide/alliances/aldmeri-dominion

 

[Dram]

Wow! It's like... it's like I don't even know you guys anymore.

Perhaps I never did.

Prejudging Mage was wrong of me sure, however somewhere deep inside I'm sure he's still an Imperial. But that's not my call to make.

I have never refused to acknowledge when I was wrong. Hell, I just did. It's just that you have never been able to prove it.

And you did call me a liar just now. Clearly.

It's just that some of you folks don't have to admit you're wrong because of the luxury of your friends.

So says the Iron to Forge when it's harvested.

Saying I'm this and that doesn't prove it is true Anouck and Imagine.

I don't think people were talking about your prejudging of DrunkenMage. They were talking about not admitting your mistakes when you make them. And now you try to show they're wrong by admitting a random other mistake. I might be wrong but I think people are trying to make it clear to you that Ulfric was not to blame for what happened in Hammerfell. I could mention reasons but others already have before me. Giving in on the stuff you said about Mage doesn't make your argument about Hammerfell less or more correct.

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower. Which was not a mistake because in the end, he wasn't sure what he wanted. Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

Emotions and blind yelling? I so far at least did not touch the Caps Lock button.

Why is it important whether or not people agreed with you in the past? People call you out on a false claim now. That claim is false, no matter how many accurate facts you've presented before. The fact that people agreed on several arguments doesn't back up your claim that Ulfric can be blamed for not aiding Hammerfell.

 

[NENALATA]

Alright Anouk, where's the mistakes? C'mon let's go. Post 'em.

 

[NENALATA]

I don't think people were talking about your prejudging of DrunkenMage. They were talking about not admitting your mistakes when you make them. And now you try to show they're wrong by admitting a random other mistake. I might be wrong but I think people are trying to make it clear to you that Ulfric was not to blame for what happened in Hammerfell. I could mention reasons but others already have before me. Giving in on the stuff you said about Mage doesn't make your argument about Hammerfell less or more correct.

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower. Which was not a mistake because in the end, he wasn't sure what he wanted. Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

Emotions and blind yelling? I so far at least did not touch the Caps Lock button.

Why is it important whether or not people agreed with you in the past? People call you out on a false claim now. That claim is false, no matter how many accurate facts you've presented before. The fact that people agreed on several arguments doesn't back up your claim that Ulfric can be blamed for not aiding Hammerfell.

I already explained the Hammerfell thing. You didn't prove me wrong.

 

[imaginepageant]

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower.

So, I'm a follower because my opinions happens to be in line with Mage's? That's really interesting, seeing as how I've been pro-Stormcloak for the two years I've been on the forums, yet Mage only just came over to the Stormcloak side. Hmmm.

Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

No, what we can't deal with is you A. making personal accusations against people for disagreeing with you and challenging your arguments, B. completely denying or ignoring that several of us have proven your arguments incorrect with hard facts and strong evidence, and C. not knowing when to give up. Seriously, you keep digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. Just let it go.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

This is exactly what I mean.

Do not accuse us of "coming at you with our emotions in a bind" when you are the only one who has made this personal (e.g. accusing us of ganging up on you, calling us sheep, saying I'm "just another Dagmar").

We have proven you wrong on multiple occasions in the last two days alone.

And your math is way off. If half of us have agreed with your arguments and the other half hasn't argued with you at all, that must mean that you haven't had any problems with anyone. Yet, here we are. I certainly haven't agreed with anything you've said, and we are arguing right now. So I don't fit into either of your idealistic halves, do I?

If you want to debate factions or lore, great. But stop making this personal. If that's all you are interested in doing, perhaps this forum isn't right for you.

 

[Anouck]

I already explained the Hammerfell thing. You didn't prove me wrong.

Alright Anouk, where's the mistakes? C'mon let's go. Post 'em.

...Seriously?
Okay. I'll keep it short because I am not going to waste too much time on this. People have posted so many things that proved you wrong, and now you ask for facts?

The reason why Ulfric can't be held responsible for not aiding Hammerfell:
- It would be like blaming Ralof for not saving an entire province from the Dominion. Really? That one guy is going to be responsible for that?
- The Stormcloaks back then wasn't the big rebellion it is today. So it was really Ulfric on his own.
- Ulfric was in prison. Hmm. A single man has to aid an entire province while being imprisoned and tortured during that time?

I am also just going to quote imaginepageant 's post:
"First of all, the Stormcloaks, as we know them, didn't even exist until after the Markarth Incident, which happened in 176... so they couldn't have done anything to help Hammerfell in 176 before they existed or during their conception in the Markarth Incident.

After which, Ulfric was arrested and put into jail. Can't do much from there.

When he was released, he returned to Windhelm to succeed his father, who died during his incarceration, as Jarl of Eastmarch. What would Ulfric's priorities have been then: to run off to Hammerfell to help them fight the Thalmor, or to stay in Eastmarch to do his duty of ruling his hold? Hmmm...

And anyway, why would they help Hammerfell against the Thalmor? The Stormcloaks' objectives have always been first and foremost to free Skyrim from the Empire's corruption, and to restore worship of Talos to the Nords. Once that goal is reached in the civil war, Ulfric speaks of readying Skyrim to defend against likely imminent attacks by the Dominion. So, where in all of this does Hammerfell come in? Why would he leave behind the country he's fighting for to help another against a threat that's far too big for him and his militia to deal with?

You want to blame Ulfric for not helping Hammerfell against the Thalmor? Well, let's turn it around. Where was Hammerfell when Skyrim needed help against the Thalmor and the Empire? Why didn't they come running in to help the Stormcloaks? For that matter, where in Oblivion were the Bosmer? The Argonians? Why didn't High Rock rally their forces to help the Stormcloaks? I'll tell you why: because it wasn't their battle to fight. Just like Hammerfell's battle with the Thalmor wasn't Ulfric's to fight"

 

[NENALATA]

The only mistake I made was being myself and not following Mage, like everyone else has done here. I'm not a follower.

So, I'm a follower because my opinions happens to be in line with Mage's? That's really interesting, seeing as how I've been pro-Stormcloak for the two years I've been on the forums, yet Mage only just came over to the Stormcloak side. Hmmm.

Which is fine but I am who I am and that's what you guys can't deal with.

No, what we can't deal with is you A. making personal accusations against people for disagreeing with you and challenging your arguments, B. completely denying or ignoring that several of us have proven your arguments incorrect with hard facts and strong evidence, and C. not knowing when to give up. Seriously, you keep digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. Just let it go.

And don't come at me with your emotions all in a bind yelling at me because you never proved I even made a mistake. I've gone this whole time and never really had any issues at all and half of you in here have agreed with quite a few of my arguments, the other half I haven't argued with at all.

This is exactly what I mean.

Do not accuse us of "coming at you with our emotions in a bind" when you are the only one who has made this personal (e.g. accusing us of ganging up on you, calling us sheep, saying I'm "just another Dagmar").

We have proven you wrong on multiple occasions in the last two days alone.

And your math is way off. If half of us have agreed with your arguments and the other half hasn't argued with you at all, that must mean that you haven't had any problems with anyone. Yet, here we are. I certainly haven't agreed with anything you've said, and we are arguing right now. So I don't fit into either of your idealistic halves, do I?

If you want to debate factions or lore, great. But stop making this personal. If that's all you are interested in doing, perhaps this forum isn't right for you.

On what occasions did you prove me wrong? Having all of your friends agreeing with you does not count.

 

[Dram]

imaginepageant Anouck
Don't waste your time. It's like talking to a rock.

 

[NENALATA]

I already explained the Hammerfell thing. You didn't prove me wrong.

Alright Anouk, where's the mistakes? C'mon let's go. Post 'em.

...Seriously?
Okay. I'll keep it short because I am not going to waste too much time on this. People have posted so many things that proved you wrong, and now you ask for facts?

The reason why Ulfric can't be held responsible for not aiding Hammerfell:
- It would be like blaming Ralof for not saving an entire province from the Dominion. Really? That one guy?
- The Stormcloaks back then wasn't the big rebellion it was today. So it was really Ulfric on his own.
- Ulfric was in prison. Hmm. A single man has to aid an entire province while being imprisoned and tortured during that time?

I am also just going to quote imaginepageant 's
"First of all, the Stormcloaks, as we know them, didn't even exist until after the Markarth Incident, which happened in 176... so they couldn't have done anything to help Hammerfell in 176 before they existed or during their conception in the Markarth Incident.

After which, Ulfric was arrested and put into jail. Can't do much from there.

When he was released, he returned to Windhelm to succeed his father, who died during his incarceration, as Jarl of Eastmarch. What would Ulfric's priorities have been then: to run off to Hammerfell to help them fight the Thalmor, or to stay in Eastmarch to do his duty of ruling his hold? Hmmm...

And anyway, why would they help Hammerfell against the Thalmor? The Stormcloaks' objectives have always been first and foremost to free Skyrim from the Empire's corruption, and to restore worship of Talos to the Nords. Once that goal is reached in the civil war, Ulfric speaks of readying Skyrim to defend against likely imminent attacks by the Dominion. So, where in all of this does Hammerfell come in? Why would he leave behind the country he's fighting for to help another against a threat that's far too big for him and his militia to deal with?

You want to blame Ulfric for not helping Hammerfell against the Thalmor? Well, let's turn it around. Where was Hammerfell when Skyrim needed help against the Thalmor and the Empire? Why didn't they come running in to help the Stormcloaks? For that matter, where in Oblivion were the Bosmer? The Argonians? Why didn't High Rock rally their forces to help the Stormcloaks? I'll tell you why: because it wasn't their battle to fight. Just like Hammerfell's battle with the Thalmor wasn't Ulfric's to fight"

Yes we'll keep it short.

So you don't share my conclusions on Hammerfell. One thing. All the answers are between the timeline and that journal and The Bear of Markarth.

 

[Anouck]

Because saying something doesn't make it necessarily so. What I guess makes me mad is you guys have had all this time to say something and no one has.

Now, I'm trying to retire from this scene altogether but for some to just sit there making all these accusations about me and calling me a liar and so forth that's not right.

Something is not true because I say so. But that's a card you can always pull in a debate.
"1+1=2"
"well, because you say it it's not necessarily true".

The point is, that the things that have been said have been backed up by sources and links. I know you don't like to show us where you get your information from, but others do. So yes, they are verified facts.

Also, it doesn't take much to understand a single man in captivity can't aid a province. It is not mathematics or anything difficult - it is just thinking logically.

 

[Anouck]

NENALATA
also, if you are trying to leave - feel free to go. No one is keeping you here. You choose to quote people and to reply to this debate.

 

[NENALATA]

Because saying something doesn't make it necessarily so. What I guess makes me mad is you guys have had all this time to say something and no one has.

Now, I'm trying to retire from this scene altogether but for some to just sit there making all these accusations about me and calling me a liar and so forth that's not right.

Something is not true because I say so. But that's a card you can always pull in a debate.
"1+1=2"
"well, because you say it it's not necessarily true".

The point is, that the things that have been said have been backed up by sources and links. I know you don't like to show us where you get your information from, but others do. So yes, they are verified facts.

Also, it doesn't take much to understand a single man in captivity can't aid a province. It is not mathematics or anything difficult - it is just thinking logically.

Ok so then we think differently, that's fine. And my conclusion on Hammerfell is supported by Lore. You can't deny this. There's nothing in lore to say this isn't possible. It's just not something which fits in with your thinking. I know, I've checked other sources as well.