Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mookie]

1. Tulius wasnt tortured by the woman which gets him so upset.

2. Its completely normal to take care of those who contribute first. If you cant help everyone why not prioritize those who fight and support you? Dunmer lived in Windhelm for 200 years and still dont see it as their home. They see it as a temporary place and think they will return to Morrowind. They turned Snow quarter into gray quarter due to that thinking. They dont invest money or themselves into Windhelm. Last winter there has been a huge snowstorm in my city and my house was piled under the snow, so I had to dig my way out. As it hapens my mother fell into the snow and couldnt get out due to it being so deep. A neighbour just walked by and didnt help her. Later on we cleaned the streets and I left his house under the snow. Am I wrong? The Dunmer do the same thing like the neighbour. He didnt hurt my mom, just like dunmer dont hurt Nords in Windhelm. But they didnt help either. So why should they be helped?

So then you freely admit that Ulfric has emotional problems resulting from his episode with Elenwen that affect his leadership abilities. No enterprise will profit from the mind of a broken leader, esp a charismatic one which is probably worst of all. And the Thalmor will never respect him because of it, Elenwen is playing with him... like a snake eyeing a baby bird.

Normal? Define normal. The Empire puts all Imperial citizens first - No one is special. The banning of Talos was an exception, not the rule.

The problem here is civics my friend. Your relationship with your neighbor or someone passing thru is not the same as matters of state. Dunmer lived in Windhelm for years and did not have any major problems until Ulfric took over. It actually says that in the game, there's a tome on it (Scourge of the Grey Quarter) and then the people's dialogue concerning it.

The problem is Ulfric is making his opinion and that of the prominent Nords of his company, STATE POLICY. No where - anywhere else in Skyrim do the Dark Elves AND Argonians have a problem fitting into society because Imperial policy forbids the practice and the rest of the Stormcloaks Jarls are too busy focused on the war. After the war, Ulfric has Galmar working with them to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Glad your mom is ok btw.

Emotional problems are of no consequence to ruling a state. What, if I broke up with my girlfriend I would be inelligible to partake in politics?

You made me laugh on that second paragraph
"The Empire puts all Imperial citizens first - No one is special. "
Is that why they left all the imperial provinces during the oblivion crysis to cater to the Cyrodil, while leaving Morrowind, Alinor, Skyrim etc to fend for themselves against Daedra.

They didnt have any problems? So for 200 years the quarter was nice and sparkly, and then all of a sudden Rolf or whoever decided to throw feces and destroy the place?

"Farm work is hard work. It's good to relax when I can, but I still have to listen to my brothers harping about 'injustices.'"

"My sister and I both work for the Nords. Our brother is ashamed of us, but at least we can affort [sic] to eat."

This is the root of the problem. The Dunmer there still think they are in Morrowind, house Hlalu, where pesky slaves should work and cater to their needs while they sit back and enjoy.

"But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight."

So they lived 200+ years in that place and its not their fight? They lived there longer than any of the human inhabitants, and its not their fight? What is? Morrowind doesnt want them. They see Hlalu's as traitors and would kill them all if they had a chance.

Then look at this:

Ambarys: "Don't you ever find it demeaning, working for that Nord family?"
Suvaris: "Look, Ambarys, I just came here for a drink. I don't need any trouble."
Ambarys: "Fine, then. I guess some Dunmer are content to be their pets."

Lets switch the words a bit and see how it sounds:

"Don't you ever find it demeaning, working for that black family?"
Suvaris: "Look, Ambarys, I just came here for a drink. I don't need any trouble."
Ambarys: "Fine, then. I guess some whites are content to be their pets."


Awesome right? So much toleration and integration. Can you imagine, a Dunmer has to work to earn its keep? What is the world coming to? Where are the servants and slaves to keep them satisfied? Work is for them, right?

Lets keep going:

Ambarys: "What's new with the Cruel-Seas [sic], Suvaris? Have they given you one of those helmets with the horns on them yet?"
Suvaris: "What do you want from me? I work for them ok? We're not friends. They pay me, and I get the job done. That's it."
Ambarys: "Touchy. Maybe some Dunmer lives in you yet."
Suvaris: "Either pour another drink or keep moving, Ambarys."

Isnt that beautiful?

"Oh splendid, another Nord.", or: "Come slumming to the Gray Quarter, have you?"

"Welcome, brother/sister. Please, enjoy yourself."

"It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets to me. It's the stink from the people. "

And that is one of the favorite. Equal insult to being called "what is it Elf?" by some Nords

The facts are:
1. Dunmer are not interested in making a living in Windhelm. They see it as a temporary stop even though they lived there 200 years and dont want to concern themselved with its problems.

2. But they still expect equal treatment even though they contribute nothing

3. They discriminate against everyone, including Dunmer who try to integrate and make a normal living.

4. Gray quarter became a slum due to them, not due to Ulfric or someone else. 200 years of not investing a peny into your house turns it into a slum. A slum of Dunmer making.

How can the problem be solved?

1. Start concerning yourself with problems of your neighbours and your city. See it as your city.

2. From that they will earn respect and become valuable members of society, worthy of help

3. They need to drop that act, they are no longer a great house Hlalu, nor do they have servants. Get to work

4. And from everything else start investing into yourself. You aint going to Morrowind. Fix the windows, clear the chimney, get a facade.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yes however there are two voices speaking here, with Galmar's being the loudest.

Ulfric is talking about defending Skyrim, not going after the Dominion. Galmar may mean well, however the war with the Empire will drag on for years. It simply will not end once the Stormcloaks win. Furthermore, whose to say the Jarls are going to comply with all of these demands and wishful expectations being hammered down on Skyrim's battered economy? There is no self-reliant economics model when it comes to war. In order to win a war, you MUST have allies. You have to count on losing the economy you have due to the enemy. The Empire is ready to deal with something like this as opposed to Ulfrican Economics which is going to hurt not just Skyrim, but all of the economies around Skyrim that rely on Skyrim's good and services.

I understand this is Tamriel, however, something like this would result in Skyrim actually FALLING BEHIND in the real world.

Ulfric repeatedly mentions going to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, invading them. There is no dialogue saying that they're going to merely stay in Skyrim, there is nothing whatsoever to back up your claim on that, when it is refuted by the Stormcloaks themselves.

Stormcloak Skyrim controls all of Skyrim and the resources located there, vast amounts of natural resources, trade with other provinces is still going on. Ulfric was seeking alliances with High Rock, Skyrim is not surrounded by enemies. Cyrodiil however, is.

What is Cyrodiil doing for alliances? Nothing. The Redguards feel betrayed by Cyrodiil, The Dunmer feel betrayed and the ruling body hate Cyrodiil. The Argonian Government is anti-Imperial, one of their first actions was to eradicate those who were 'Imperialized'.

How is Ulfric going to hurt the economy? They seek to rebuild Skyrim, which will take trade and hard work, something they're not afraid of. Nords have a long history of being merchants, they're trading with other provinces already. Windhelm is trading with Raven Rock.

Right which is why the only city where racism is enforced is Windhelm.

There are two Dunmer who live outside the Gray Quarter, so it isn't forced. Also the Dunmer don't want to leave the Gray Quarter, so they're not forced to remain. They can leave anytime they wish, but they don't want to.

Imperials keep the Argonians outside also. There is evidence of racial tensions between all three races, apparently even violence between Dunmer and Argonians.

Not to mention the comment from the Stormcloak guards about having an Orc stronghold, (which is little more than a city) being an afront to 'his' people. Might also have something to do with that being the largest Ebony supply in Skyrim and of course, the Nords are entitled to that more than the Orcs who've lived there probably since the days of Ysgramor.

Imperial guards in Windhelm say the exact same thing.

Probably the biggest indicator of racism in Windhelm is the fact that Ulfric REFUSES to fix his city's problems. I say Windhelm and not Stormcloaks because if Ulfric becomes High King of Skyrim, judging by his Admin record as Jarl, and the fact that alot of the social problems in the city started with his rule, as Jarl, it's safe to say Skyrim would become similar with more racism becoming the accepted norm in Nord society and state policy.

Ulfric Stormcloak is fighting a war against the Empire's forces in Skyrim, he's fighting against the richest Holds. He's funding the rebellion from his own coffers, and those of the Jarls who support him. The city already has few remaining guards, and all the Dunmer's problems are only from those who are unwilling to let go of the past. There are Dunmer who complain about the other Dunmer, because all they do is just bitch. They were given an entire district for free, and weren't expected to do anything. Those who are doing hard work, aren't complaining.

Not to mention all of the dead, mutilated, tortured, set on fire bodies you find of Elves, Imperials and Khajits in 'Nord' bandit forts.

Stormcloaks aren't bandits...

Many of these same Nords make comments such, "Skyrim belong to the Nords"

Nords in the Legion and every Nord follower say the exact same thing...

and "Your kind has no place here", which subscribes to Stormcloak doctrine. Galmar even has a problem with you joining the Stormcloaks because you're an outsider.

He doesn't have a problem, he says the same thing even if you're a Nord. Which he explains; "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it."

The developers also explain; read the red text http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1b22

Brunwulf says this and that about Ulfric, first meeting with Ulfric his stewart mentions the Dark Elves need help and Ulfric acts like he doesn't care.

He expresses frustration, and says "Can't they see I have larger concerns, such as all of Skyrim?" he's fighting a war. He hasn't got the time, or resources to make them happy.

They want repairs, they want extra guards. Why don't they form a neighborhood watch? Or do some makeshift repairs? They expect Ulfric to halt what he is doing, and focus on them.

I know there's a war on and everything... however a leader is not judged simply by War, but thru his Admin abilities as well. Why should Ulfric be 'given' Skyrim when he can't even manage his own city?

He's focused on the war, to handle everything else. He's not putting his city first, therefor he is bad? The Empire put Cyrodiil first, and abandoned the provinces during the Oblivion Crisis/Great War... Funny how the provinces don't like that.

How can he be trusted with protecting Nord society, when he commits treason against his country by obstructing the normal operation(s) of it's Gov?

Source showing it is treason for the Jarls to exercise their right to refuse to meet the Moot?

After Torygg died, you had 9 Jarls.

4 - Pro-Imperial
4- Pro-Stormcloak
1 - Wildcard (Jarl B)

And every Jarl had a shot at becoming High King, even Ulfric. They could have had a bi-partisan Moot with everyone's political interests represented in Skyrim and just chosen a new High King from there minus all the bloodshed and the B$.

No they didn't, the Empire only allows Jarls of Solitude as High Queen/King. Obviously you're not paying attention... try and find me a High King/Queen who wasn't a Jarl of Solitude under the Third Empire.

And Ulfric committed treason by refusing to allow the Moot, so in doing so, Ulfric put his interests ahead of the people's interests in Skyrim.

Again, source showing it is treason to refuse the Moot? How do you know it isn't within their right not to meet?

Okay, we'll play along for a second. In this mind of yours, where there is freedom and democracy under the Empire etc. What makes you think Tullius would allow Ulfric to attend this Moot unharmed? Then if by some random chance, which is highly unlikely, basically impossible. Ulfric is named High King, so then the Empire goes "Alright, bye"

Why would they honor this tradition, but not the duel?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Right which is why the only city where racism is enforced is Windhelm. Stormcloak capital. Not to mention the comment from the Stormcloak guards about having an Orc stronghold, (which is little more than a city) being an afront to 'his' people. Might also have something to do with that being the largest Ebony supply in Skyrim and of course, the Nords are entitled to that more than the Orcs who've lived there probably since the days of Ysgramor.

This is actually nothing new, the Nords have had problems with the Orc Strongholds for thousands of years.

No pest has proven more resilient to the Nords of Skyrim than the common Orc. The tusked people claim occupancy of our fair realm, stretching back before the time Ysgramor crossed the Sea of Ghosts. Though few written accounts still exist of that time, there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

Orc strongholds are well defended outposts often situated around deposits of mineral wealth. Each contains the infrastructure to support a dozen or more families, surrounded by walls designed to repel anything but the strongest martial force. Many jarls are remembered in song for dying vainly while attempting to root a stronghold from their lands. Worse, destroyed strongholds often return within a generation of their destruction if not countered by a Nord fort that needs a constant supply of troops and provisions.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orcs_of_Skyrim

 

[DrunkenMage]

​

I'd suggest the Imperials on here find a new spokesmen.​

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They can try. I'll take that large unrelated post, to mean I won.​

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​

 

[Raijin]

So then you freely admit that Ulfric has emotional problems resulting from his episode with Elenwen that affect his leadership abilities. No enterprise will profit from the mind of a broken leader, esp a charismatic one which is probably worst of all. And the Thalmor will never respect him because of it, Elenwen is playing with him... like a snake eyeing a baby bird.

Elenwen was never invited (Or even mention) to attend the meeting to discuss a temporary ceasefire between the Imperial legion and the Stormcloaks so the disapproval reaction that Ulfric displayed during season unending was completely normal. It has nothing to do with his leadership abilities.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d950d

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bc186

The fact that General Tullius is so afraid to upset the Thalmor is rather disturbing. Elenwen has General Tullius on a tight leash.

Normal? Define normal. The Empire puts all Imperial citizens first - No one is special. The banning of Talos was an exception, not the rule.

Is that so? Mede II was warned from his entrusted Generals that his military was weak, and that it was not wise to upset the Thalmor, and he did it anyways. It cost many Nords their very lives, and for what? A treaty that Mede II refused to accept, but later accepted due to the fact he finally acknowledges that his army was in fact weak after blood was stained on Cyrodiil's soil?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lu-ah's_Journal

Did the Empire put their soldiers family members (Like Lu'ah Al-Skaven) at first before tossing their sons and daughters to a senseless war?

 

[Epic Keith]

Okkkkkkk, I guess I better leave before I lose more limbs.
Wake me up if Dagmar ever comes back

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire puts all Imperial citizens first - No one is special.

Why do the Dunmer hate the Empire? During the Oblivion Crisis, gates to the plane of Oblivion opened all over Morrowind. The Empire pulled most of its forces out of Morrowind to deal with the gates in their own homeland, leaving us virtually defenseless. We had no standing army at the time, just uncoordinated pockets of resistance. - Adril Arano

Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire. - The Great War

Why are you fighting this war? We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne! - Ulfric Stormcloak

Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true. - General Tullius

"I moved here from Helgen after my family was killed. At the time I couldn't stand to be around anyone. They all felt sorry for me and I didn't want them to. It was my problem, not theirs. Two Imperial drunks who thought they were above the law." - Angi

 

[Jeremius]

After Torygg died, you had 9 Jarls.

4 - Pro-Imperial
4- Pro-Stormcloak
1 - Wildcard (Jarl B)

And every Jarl had a shot at becoming High King, even Ulfric. They could have had a bi-partisan Moot with everyone's political interests represented in Skyrim and just chosen a new High King from there minus all the bloodshed and the B$.

And Ulfric committed treason by refusing to allow the Moot, so in doing so, Ulfric put his interests ahead of the people's interests in Skyrim. And he's doing the same thing with this fictional war with the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks in Riverwood, some of the Stormcloak Jarls, hell even Ulfric himself expresses a desire not to fight anymore on foreign soil. He gives devoutes and entire speech on it and he does the same thing during Season Unending. Only in the end after he wins does he bring this up, although the validity of that speech can be called into question because he's telling people what they want to hear.

The Nords who support Ulfric are tired of war, he expresses his hatred for fighting wars on foreign soil (1st meeting in Windhelm), Ulfric wants a self-reliant Skyrim which will stop trade with other Provinces and now all of the sudden they're going to invade the Dominion.

You do realize that the moot would have been pointless and would have ended up in a war anyways, right? None of the Jarls would have wholeheartedly agreed on any one side to take over, be it imperial or Stormcloak. If Balgruuf won, he would have had a problem with Ulfric because he would want Skyrim to completely break away from the Empire and the Empire would want Ulfric's head on a plate.

The only way the Moot would have solved this issue is if they agreed to split Skyrim into three separate provinces, and that would not have worked out well at all, given the circumstances

 

[DrunkenMage]

I don't even see how the Jarls would have 'equal' chance. The Empire only allows Jarls of Solitude to become High King/Queen, backed by Imperial interests of that city.

If your name is not Elisif, you have no shot under the Empire.

 

[Epic Keith]

Hey mage. You mind telling me when Tully said that. Its not like I don't believe you its just I want to hear him say it.
and what do you have to say about ulfrics misuse of the voice?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hey mage. You mind telling me when Tully said that. Its not like I don't believe you its just I want to hear him say it.

Calling Ulfric Stormcloak right? At Diplomatic Immunity in the Thalmor Embassy.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0006a7ad

Or scroll down to Diplomatic Immunity http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius

and what do you have to say about ulfrics misuse of the voice?

Misuse in the eyes of the Greybeards. But, they were only formed because their founder got owned in one battle, then decided to get depressed about it. Then forced the Nords to follow his deluded 'Way of the Voice'.

The Thu'um was a gift from Kyne; Kyne, or Kaan in the dragon language, is the Nordic goddess of the Storm, widow of Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors.

 

[Mirrored]

And how exactly would the Moot have met? Where would it have taken place? In Imperial territory, or on Stormcloak lands? There is no neutral ground in Skyrim, aside from High Hrothgar, so neither side would've been willing to trust the other. After all, if it was hosted in Imperial territory, what would stop the Empire from crashing the meeting and arresting Ulfric and his supporters? And if it was held in Stormcloak territory, the Jarls would've feared being ambushed on the way or executed if the vote didn't go Ulfric's way.

Of course, let's ignore the fact that the Empire never would have allowed the Moot to meet to begin with. Ulfric and the Jarls who support him are seen as rebels and traitors to both the Emperor and the previous High King himself. Allowing the Moot to convene would have legitimized their movement in the eyes of the Empire, as they would've been acknowledging that the Stormcloaks still had the right to represent their holds.

Also, in the eyes of the Empire, no Moot was even needed as they regarded Elisif as the rightful heir to the throne, because they don't believe Nord traditions are relevant to an Imperial province.

 

[NENALATA]

And how exactly would the Moot have met? Where would it have taken place? In Imperial territory, or on Stormcloak lands? There is no neutral ground in Skyrim, aside from High Hrothgar, so neither side would've been willing to trust the other. After all, if it was hosted in Imperial territory, what would stop the Empire from crashing the meeting and arresting Ulfric and his supporters? And if it was held in Stormcloak territory, the Jarls would've feared being ambushed on the way or executed if the vote didn't go Ulfric's way.

Of course, let's ignore the fact that the Empire never would have allowed the Moot to meet to begin with. Ulfric and the Jarls who support him are seen as rebels and traitors to both the Emperor and the previous High King himself. Allowing the Moot to convene would have legitimized their movement in the eyes of the Empire, as they would've been acknowledging that the Stormcloaks still had the right to represent their holds.

Also, in the eyes of the Empire, no Moot was even needed as they regarded Elisif as the rightful heir to the throne, because they don't believe Nord traditions are relevant to an Imperial province.

Season unending anyone? Again, there's that frozen logic. lol

Alright, alright I'll stop.

*PEACE*​

 

[Mirrored]

And how exactly would the Moot have met? Where would it have taken place? In Imperial territory, or on Stormcloak lands? There is no neutral ground in Skyrim, aside from High Hrothgar, so neither side would've been willing to trust the other. After all, if it was hosted in Imperial territory, what would stop the Empire from crashing the meeting and arresting Ulfric and his supporters? And if it was held in Stormcloak territory, the Jarls would've feared being ambushed on the way or executed if the vote didn't go Ulfric's way.

Of course, let's ignore the fact that the Empire never would have allowed the Moot to meet to begin with. Ulfric and the Jarls who support him are seen as rebels and traitors to both the Emperor and the previous High King himself. Allowing the Moot to convene would have legitimized their movement in the eyes of the Empire, as they would've been acknowledging that the Stormcloaks still had the right to represent their holds.

Also, in the eyes of the Empire, no Moot was even needed as they regarded Elisif as the rightful heir to the throne, because they don't believe Nord traditions are relevant to an Imperial province.

Season unending anyone? Again, there's that frozen logic. lol

Alright, alright I'll stop.

Notice what I said.

"There is no neutral ground in Skyrim, aside from High Hrothgar, so neither side would've been willing to trust the other."

Problem is, the Greybeards only allowed the monastery to be used because Alduin was on their doorstep, and even then they felt it was a 'mistake'. So good luck convincing them to hold the Moot there.

 

[Raijin]

Why do the Dunmer hate the Empire? During the Oblivion Crisis, gates to the plane of Oblivion opened all over Morrowind. The Empire pulled most of its forces out of Morrowind to deal with the gates in their own homeland, leaving us virtually defenseless. We had no standing army at the time, just uncoordinated pockets of resistance. - Adril Arano

This is a shining example of why it is simply not healthy for the citizens to depend too much on the Empire for protection and security. Morrowind nearly had zero defense without depending on the Empire. That is bad.

To that respects it's not the Empires fault. It is the lazy Dunmers of Morrowind that depended too much on the Empire.

I'm starting to become a Dark elf hater. I find them far more annoying than the high elves from the Thalmor.

 

[Anouck]

But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

Unlike with the Empire where all decisions are NOT left up to one person, even though there's an Emperor, there's still an Elder Council. Thalmor are very similar in this respect.

You mean that Elder Council that is too corrupt to function the way it should?

Hehehe technically speaking I won because so far, you've proven me right.

Nah, I am pretty sure he has not.

Either way, neither Imperial or Stormcloaks stand a chance in Oblivion against the will of the Thalmor, a thought you've subscribed to in the past, which is a fact in it's own right.

How is that a fact? Bethesda's developers dislike the Thalmor. Employees of the company even talk openly negative about the faction. They're the bad guys who are going to get their arses kicked in the end.
The Empire might be crumbling, but the independent provinces are going to raise their swords against the Dominion. The worst mistake you can make is underestimating your enemy.

Furthermore, by turning so hard against the Empire, it's very difficult to take your word on anything seriously or to have confidence in what you have said in the past. You had no trouble judging others who did not turn away nearly as much as you have.

Well, it is very strange this comes from you: the person who changes side every other day. Yesterday you had 'LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE' in your signature - today it's 'LONG LIVE THE ALDMERI DOMINION'.
Mage turned away once. He was an Imperial throughout this entire thread, and changed his mind about a week ago. You keep switching sides, so I don't see what point you are trying to make?

So... hehehe you've already beaten yourself.

​

​

Since all your arguments so far have been proven wrong, there's only one person in here beating herself.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hehehe technically speaking I won because so far, you've proven me right.

Furthermore, by turning so hard against the Empire, it's very difficult to take your word on anything seriously or to have confidence in what you have said in the past. You had no trouble judging others who did not turn away nearly as much as you have.

I changed sides once in two years, I can't be taken seriously.

You've changed sides more times than can be counted, often twice on the same page...

 

[Dram]

I'm starting to become a Dark elf hater. I find them far more annoying than the high elves from the Thalmor.

 

[DrunkenMage]

To that respects it's not the Empires fault. It is the lazy Dunmers of Morrowind that depended too much on the Empire.

That is like saying it is Skyrim's fault the Empire banned Talos. Empire abandons the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Redguards and now Nords.

Don't be hating on other abandoned folk.

 

[NENALATA]

So... hehehe you've already beaten yourself.​

Since all your arguments so far have been proven wrong, there's only one person in here beating herself.

Really Anouck all of them? Well I guess if Anouck says it, it all must be true and we need to take her word for it immediately and without question. You haven't proven enough to debunk prob 60% - 75% of my arguments, much less understand them. It's not even possible really due to the way you guys think. I wasn't aware you were even still participating, but whatever. Now don't get me wrong, here, I'm not saying you're not intelligent. lol, I know lots of intelligent people but intelligence alone is not enough.

So when I talk about winning, I am referring to the message, which was never proven false by any reasonable standard or methods of logic, therefore, you never defeated me. Again, someone will always lose when you attack their humanity.

NENALATA said: ↑

Hehehe technically speaking I won because so far, you've proven me right.​

​

Furthermore, by turning so hard against the Empire, it's very difficult to take your word on anything seriously or to have confidence in what you have said in the past. You had no trouble judging others who did not turn away nearly as much as you have.​

I changed sides once in two years, I can't be taken seriously.

You've changed sides more times than can be counted, often twice on the same page...

The problem is you gave others such a hard time about doing same thing. When your busy calling everyone else out, that was just fine, bragging about running Stormcloaks off, so I'm sure you understand.


Btw - This was the train wreck I was talking about. Everyone running to the rescue of Mage, all the muses and voices of reason coming together yet, they themselves silent when others were in same predicament. Remember what Ulfric said, "Keep your brother and he'll keep you?"

Furthermore, by turning so hard against the Empire, it's very difficult to take your word on anything seriously or to have confidence in what you have said in the past. You had no trouble judging others who did not turn away nearly as much as you have.​

Well, it is very strange this comes from you: the person who changes side every other day. Yesterday you had 'LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE' in your signature - today it's 'LONG LIVE THE ALDMERI DOMINION'.
Mage turned away once. He was an Imperial throughout this entire thread, and changed his mind about a week ago. You keep switching sides, so I don't see what point you are trying to make?

According to you and Mage most things I say are strange. Doesn't make them any less accurate.

Yeah but I've never really changed though. I can change my picture or whatever but the message has always been the same, at least the philosophy behind it. Also, I'm not the 'spokesman' for anyone, I'm not the one giving people pl*ps for changing their views until now, because this thread needs heros and there's no one else but us... wait what?

And finally, it's not that I've changed sides the WGC enables both sides to cooperate on certain levels. There's been times when I was tempted to go Empire only but I never did. I've already explained my feelings on the subject several times before and no one ever said anything. The few 'friends' I have on here and fellow Thalmor never had a problem with it.

Hell, there are even Thalmor in Skyrim fighting the Stormcloaks for the Empire, not to mention the Thalmor embassy.

If you have such a problem with me helping the Empire, Anouck, then I suggest you reflect on Ancano's dialogue, Elenwen's and maybe Ondolomor's. Part of the WGC is for the Thalmor to help the Empire transition from a society that worships obsolete Gods and hates Elves, to something different, which the EMPIRE agreed to do. Has nothing to do with me.

So that's enough, I'll be on my way now and hopefully you guys won't have to listen to me anymore. Think of this... as a fresh start for both of us. I've been trying to head out for a while now, however there's really no longer any point in sticking around here. Not to mention I'm still fighting over my job. As much Greed and Malice as I've seen in Corporate America almost makes me not blame you guys for going Stormcloak. However, I could never do that, not seriously at least. But I have no problem at all saving an Empire which maybe made some mistakes in the past and realizing this, has repented themselves now.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the Thalmor 100%. I've said this more times than I can remember. I also remember, the Empire from Oblivion and am a little disappointed at how the Mede's have been running the Empire. Sure, I'm glad the Thalmor and the Dominion have risen, but that doesn't mean on some levels I can't help but feel sorry for the Empire... Not Talos, but the Empire. I'm like an open book, you can easily find everything I stand for in my signature line, if you can't understand it or disagree with it, so be it.

It is my hope in TES VI we can see either the same or greater cooperation between the Empire and Thalmor. This is it for me and I'm gone from this thread and forum, although I might still check my email on occasion.