Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

Also, about Maven, I think Maven is awesome. I also enjoy the company of Lady Lawgiver.

Lawgiver is in a bad position. Her son is imprisoned for speaking out against Ulfric. Granted his 'prison' is more like club Fed but, I digress. Her other son is desperately trying to prove himself and both Lawgiver and he realize how fl*ffed their situation really is.

Lawgiver follows Ulfric yet her family is worried about whether or not that was truly the best thing to do. She just goes with it because Stormcloaks presence is closer to home, yet she's wary of the Empire's response to his rebellion.

Maven as a Jarl is a monster. But that's good in a way. Maven isn't devisive, her roots are stronger than Lawgiver's. Maven is not afraid of being deposed or worried about what this or that person is going to do. Lawgiver's flaw is she reacts instead of acts. Maven is cold and calculated, almost like a tactician and is good at 'problem solving'. Even if this means she's a vicious snake.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

You underestimate the pride Imperials have for their Empires. Abnur Tharn had to abandon his own Emperor. Betray his friends and serve Mannimarco, The King of Worms to continue what was left of the dying Empire. Abnur was not a good man, but his actions saved countless lives, and with his choice, helped the Vestige defeat Molag Bal.

While Tharn himself is irrelevant, never underestimate an Imperial's loyalty to their empire. I'm more than certain there are more than just Tharn and Mede's examples of having to chose the harder path to protect their Empires.

She's no better than Maven. She abuses her Court Mage, forcing her to look to see if her son who she's all but exiled for not supporting Ulfric is cursed for having a different view of the man.

Wylandriah: "Do you realize how delicate the experiment is you've interrupted by sending for me? I may need to throw out the components and start again."
Laila: "How dare you take that kind of tone. You're in service to me, remember?"
Wylandriah: "I'm sorry my lady. The stresses of all this research... it's becoming more than I can bear."
Laila: "You're forgiven. Now, I want to know if you've made any progress with my son. Is he cursed? Has he been possessed?"
Wylandriah: "Sorry, my lady. I've been looking but I'm convinced Saerlund says truly believes what he is saying."
Laila: "Very well. Keep at it. You may go."




Spoken like an arrogant member of the Stormcloaks. Here you have a Jarl willing to fight for the Stormcloak name, and you call his entire city irrelevant? Last I recall, there's a fort that's owned by Stormcloaks during the events of the Civil War near winterhold that the Imperials need to take over just slightly south of Winterhold. Who's citizens do you think protect it? Windhelm's? Because I seriously doubt Ulfric would send his own troops who are there to protect him to a fort all the way out there when he has a city to the north willing to fight for him.

Also, your assumption on the College of Winterhold has no basis, evidence or anything except 100% speculation. The College themselves speak of what happened while the Jarl just says "I don't know what happened BUT THE COLLEGE DID IT." I'm more inclined to believe the Arch-Mage who was alive at the time, over a Nord who is the prime example of why the Ancient Nords would facepalm at the sight of the Stormcloaks who disregard magic when they had some of the most powerful magic back then. Enough to wipe out TWO entire races of Elves.

Not sure what you mean, here... I was comparing Skald's decision to focus more on the war than Dawnstar to Mede's decision to abandon the capital in the hopes of returning to reclaim it, which was proven to be the right choice. I'm sure that the Empire has very loyal subjects.

Just because she's a bad employer and mother doesn't mean she's a bad Jarl.

Why should I sugarcoat it? Winterhold's population is gone, their economy gone, and everyone's too afraid of the College for anyone to go near the place. They can't even field all of their own guard force: "Hard to believe I ever complained about Riften being cold."

Winterhold is strategically important to Ulfric, his Northern border is exposed without it, so yes, he would send troops to defend it.

Care to offer your explanation on the Great Collapse then? I find the Red Mountain story extremely far-fetched, and there's no other reason provided for it. I don't know why you think the Arch-Mage would be forthcoming about the information. Many mages you can interact with during Skyrim at the college perform very reckless experiments, so I find it more likely than a tsunami caused by a volcano that erupted over a 100 years before.

Magic has fallen out of favour all across Tamriel since the Oblivion Crisis, even the Mages Guild fell apart because of it.

Hmmm. Well, as any geologist would tell you, volcanoes are built *over time* from pressure exerted by internal forces of super-heated gas and liquid magma expanding upwards thru the crust.

Think about that for a moment.

What else do these natural forces produce? Earthquakes. Undersea Volcanoes are more common than Volcanoes above water level. What do undersea Volcanoes produce? Earthquakes > Explosions > Massive Tidal Waves.

So, let's see now. There's a mod out there which makes Red Mountain visible from Skyrim. We don't need it, however this could help you get a visual. Winterhold's location would make it vulnerable to say an after shock affect of the Red Mountain eruption. Even if it's 100 years later on, that pressure has still been building around Red Mountain. And a similar *undersea* release could have caused the great disaster.

The Mages Guild has been rocky for a while yet you've given us a gross over simplification. The Mages Guild didn't fall apart because people don't like Magic. The Mages Guild split OVER the use of Magic (and politics as well I'm sure). The split was because of the Mages Guild's high, long lasting status in society which made people take enough interest in it to try and change it.

You make it sound like the Mage's Guild was dissolved, that no one uses Magic obviously, there are two *competing* Mage Associations in Cyrodil alone. Magic is also still popular in the Thalmor's part of Tamriel and their High Level Mages have to be taught from somewhere. The only place we can truly see where Magic appears to be shunned is in parts of Skyrim and maybe Hammerfell. The Nords do frown on Magic, persecute those trying to learn it, yet the Stormcloak Jarls don't mind placing their orders for service.

I'm no geologist or whatever it's called but whatever pressure around Red Mountain has been released, and it's erupting at a steady pace currently. If the Collapse happened within a few years of the eruption, sure ok, but not over a century later. Also, earthquakes can only occur at certain areas, and they usually recur in those areas over time. In Winterhold's history, which goes back to the First Era or earlier, no mention of the sea turning violent or earthquakes either.

Look at us, a civil war debate has now covered earthquakes and volcanoes.

"After the Oblivion Crisis, the Mages Guild was dissolved due to magic's reputation of having started the Oblivion Crisis." -UESP

It's not like any Nords have outlawed magic or anything, the dislike of magic is more on a personal level (within families and such, who probably had a relative burnt alive by an Aldmeri battlemage during the War). Like you said, Stormcloak Jarls still employ court mages.

 

[Ivory]

Just because she's a bad employer and mother doesn't mean she's a bad Jarl.

No, but it does show her poor decision making along with how she blindly believes everything her steward tells her, along with trusting someone like Maven. She even says Maven is one of the few people she trusts in the city. Says enough I think about her leadership. If she cannot lead, what makes you think she has the right to rule?

Why should I sugarcoat it? Winterhold's population is gone, their economy gone, and everyone's too afraid of the College for anyone to go near the place. They can't even field all of their own guard force: "Hard to believe I ever complained about Riften being cold."

Winterhold is strategically important to Ulfric, his Northern border is exposed without it, so yes, he would send troops to defend it.

So you undermine an Entire province of skyrim because they seem to be "useless"? Last I checked, the Guard reaches all the way out to the mine southern of Winterhold. Ulfric isn't a fool, he would use allies from anywhere if it provides the exposed area protection. This is why Mage says the Stormcloak Skyrim would fall apart after Ulfric's death. You wouldn't support Winterhold, Skald would send every last child to their deaths, Law Giver would be about as useful as a wet paper towel since Maven is the actual leader and.. was their someone else?

Care to offer your explanation on the Great Collapse then? I find the Red Mountain story extremely far-fetched, and there's no other reason provided for it. I don't know why you think the Arch-Mage would be forthcoming about the information. Many mages you can interact with during Skyrim at the college perform very reckless experiments, so I find it more likely than a tsunami caused by a volcano that erupted over a 100 years before.

Magic has fallen out of favour all across Tamriel since the Oblivion Crisis, even the Mages Guild fell apart because of it.

Only two members of the College perform reckless experiments around the time you join, both of which are students and they do it inside college grounds and the other sends you to kill undead, away from people.

As for the Volcano, it's very possible when the Ash Spawn started appearing as well in Solsthiem, not sure when they started becoming to be, but it's one theory. Point is, blaming someone blindly is dangerous, ignorance leads to pointless fighting and death.

Tamriel was almost taken over by Molag Bal at one point, yet the Mage's Guild held strong. Magic is part of the world, it's not something shunned except by Redguards and Nords usually. And even the Nords still use enchanted weapons. Hypocritical eh?

 

[TheQahnaarin]

'True Nords' are stuck somewhere in Atmora, and little is known about them, except that it's believed that conflict getting out of hand/wars made them flee from Atmora in the first place.

Anyway, even though I'm a bit late, time for some good old Stormcloak-Jarl bashing.

Let's start with Skald; very open about his allegiance to the Stormcloaks, and not liked as a ruler. Even argues with his own staff over and over again. Lookie here:

Skald: "Madena, can we count on your spells to assist us in this war? The Empire is bound to bring their battlemages against us."
Madena: "I told you before, Skald, I have no interest in taking sides in this war. I've no desire to be killed."
Skald: "What good is a court mage if she refuses to fight? Where's your sense of duty?"
Madena: "When I came here, my only duties were to cure crop diseases and occasionally light a bonfire on holidays. I didn't sign up to kill."
Skald: "Fine, but this isn't over Madena. We'll talk again."

Jod: "My Jarl, I have concerns about the safety of Dawnstar."
Skald: "Safety? Don't I have you to handle the town's safety? What is this about, Jod?"
Jod: "You keep pledging more and more of our guard to the frontlines. The way this is going, we won't be able to defend our own borders."
Skald: "Nonsense. The best place for our men is driving the Imperials back. I will ensure that men from Dawnstar get every opportunity for glory."
Jod: "Glory is meaningless if they have no home to return to. I urge you to lower our commitments to the front until I'm sure we're safe."
Skald: "I won't have you rob our soldiers of their chance to drive out the Empire. I'm done discussing this, Jod."

Skald: "We are poised for glory, Jod. The Empire will never take Dawnstar while every last man, woman, and child here draws breathe!"
Jod: "With respect, Jarl. You can't ask everyone to throw themselves against trained Legionnaires. Let's leave the fighting to the Stormcloaks."
Skald: "You're right. Why dilute the glory with too many souls fighting over it? We'll drive out the Empire and be celebrated as heroes when we win."
Jod: "If we win. This war is going to drag on for years. I can feel it. We need to prepare for a long struggle ahead."
Skald: "Enough of your dire predictions! We will talk about this another time."

If you read at least the last two dialogues above and still think he's a wise leader then you really shouldn't be nagging at Mede's decision to leave the Imperial City behind. Now, since I mentioned "not liked as a ruler" up there, I guess I'll throw up some dialogue from the people in Dawnstar:

That would be Jarl Skald the Elder. He's over in the White Hall, probably talking about Ulfric like he's the second coming of Talos. -Beitild
That would be Skald the Elder. He's been running Dawnstar ever since he was a boy, and he never lost that brat's attitude. Turned on the Empire first chance he got. Now we're all part of this rebellion. -Leigelf
Pfft. I'm the oldest woman in Dawnstar. Was here when the Skald the Elder was Skald the Younger. He's a fool, if you haven't met him already. Thinks Ulfric Stormcloak is invincible and spits dragon fire. The people here look to Brina Merilis when they need things settled. Real firebrand going up. Wasn't surprised when she joined the Legion. -Frida
Oh, it's just wonderful being Skald's servant. He's not demanding in the least. -Bulfrek
The Jarl is... tired. Be mindful of that. -Jod

All in all, it doesn't speak of maturity for Skald. Why isn't someone challenging him? Guess that chick who replaces him once the Empire takes over is just too nice, bleh... anyway, next is Laila Law-Giver. That woman has been efficiently manipulated by Maven and Anuriel, who is a member of her staff. To make it short, she has absolutely no clue what's going on. It's surprising she even decided to take a side in the war, or bother going for Ulfric's side. Only explanation I have would be that Riften is too close to Windhelm and she feared losing her throne; this remains pure speculation though. Some dialogue for your entertainment:

Laila: "Anuriel, a word please."
Anuriel: "Yes, my lady?"
Laila: "It's been brought to my attention that the poison known as skooma may be present in our city. What do you know of this?"
Anuriel: "I believe it to be a falsehood perpetrated by the Empire in order to weaken the citizen's confidence in your ability to rule."
Laila: "Excellent, then they'll be no need to devote any resources to stopping it. Thank you, Anuriel. That will be all."

Laila: "Harrald, I have need of you."
Harrald: "Yes mother? What is it?"
Laila: "This situation with the sewers beneath the city. I hear people have entered this place and have gone missing. Do you know of this?"
Harrald: "Yes, I've heard such things. Anuriel assures me they're just fabrications and there's nothing down there save a few stray skeever."
Laila: "Well, make sure we keep the patrols out night and day, just to be certain."

Laila: "Maven! Always a pleasure to receive you. What can I help you with today?"
Maven: "Thank you, Laila. I wanted to discuss the protection of my shipments." OR "I'm certain you're aware of the loss I sustained a fortnight ago."
Laila: "Yes, indeed. An entire caravan shipment of your mead taken by Imperial soldiers. What of it?"
Maven: "Well, I'm also certain you're aware that our own city guard failed to provide the protection required to ensure safe passage of the shipment."
Laila: "Indeed. We lost three soldiers in that attack. A sad day for Riften."
Maven: "I have payments to make you realize. If I can't make them, I can't make Black-Briar Mead." OR "Quite. To be brief, I need compensation for the lost shipment. Since Riften was responsible for it, Riften should pay for it."
Laila: "We... don't have enough to..."
Maven: "Laila, Riften is my home, but if my meadery can't be safe here, I'll just move it elsewhere."
Laila: "No, that won't be necessary. You'll have compensation for your loss."
Maven: "Thank you, Laila."

I checked for more dialogue about her but obviously even her people could care less about her, and her steward and bodyguard are too occupied with their affair I'm afraid. It's surprising Maven didn't just have her killed instead of waiting for the Legion to arrive first.

Last but not least, Korir from Winterhold. Mocking mages and elves and badmouthing them whenever he can, but has one as steward which everyone is afraid of just because he's a dark elf so they believe he has connections to the College. He also believes a fancy circlet improves Winterhold's prestige. He also encourages his son to play "Hunt the Elf". He's also adamant about who caused the Great Collapse, look here:

Few will admit it, but we know the truth about the Great Collapse.
The College is the worst thing that's ever happened to Winterhold, maybe to Skyrim.
Those cursed mages... It's their fault Winterhold is gone.
Stay clear of that College, if you know what's good for you. Nothing but foul deeds behind those walls.

Some dialogue:

Thaena: "That... wizard is still at the Inn. I can't believe Dagur allows him to stay there."
Korir: "This is what it's come to. No one seems to care what they've done to our home."
Thaena: "It's clear that memories are far too short."
Korir: "And it's clear money matters more to Dagur than honor."

And I won't even start with Ulfric. His Jarl-fail-level is off the chart.
But if the people above sound like good rulers to you, and you agree that Skyrim deserves them, then you're definitely better off as Stormcloak.

And another enters the fray.

Skald arguing within his court means nothing, debates will happen, and obviously he'll be unpopular with the citizens because he's commiting more to the war. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until democracy emerges on Tamriel things like that will happen. I'm sure the citizens of the Imperial City were thrilled when Mede put the Empire above their well-being and left them to suffer at the hands of the Dominion but it was the right decision in the end.

Laila's doing her best to look out for the Rift, she has to cater to Maven or else the whole city sinks financially. Besides, better her than Maven.

Winterhold is pretty much irrelevant, and I'm 99.9% certain the Great Collapse was the College's fault. I do wish he'd move on, but he doesn't really have the resources to do anything until the war's over at least. The Helm is comparable to what the Jagged Crown will do. Besides, it not like he commits anything but a few Septims for a visiting adventurer to retrieve it.

Ulfric can't run Eastmarch perfectly, he doesn't have a general to fight his war while he acts as Jarl. Im guessing you're talking about the segregation of Windhelm, and theres a lot more to it than just Ulfric being racist.

A brief summary of the Imperial Jarls now:

Igmund: Made a total mess of the Forsworn situation, period.

Ravencrone: As unimportant as Morthal is, she seems disliked by the majority of her town. Jorgen complains about Sorli too but no one else does, so I guess he's just a complainer.

Siddgier: Do I even need to say anything about this guy? Probably the worst Jarl in the game.

Elisif: Pretty much all her decisions are (wisely so) shot down by her court and Tullius, and it's obvious she has little to no grasp on politics.

So... Ulfric doesn't want a General. You said it yourself... "he doesn't have a General to fight his war..."

That's right, because it's *his* war. Ulfric even tells you sometime around the Battle for Whiterun not to question Galmar or himself.

You don't understand this do you? This is Ulfric's fight. It's an "I hate you all" "Everyone can go to hell" personal vendetta death-wish against the Empire.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter why you join the cloaks or what they fight for, it's Ulfric's fight. Never forget that.

I learned that during my very first visit to Windhelm. Which is another reason I went back to Whiterun and then onto Solitude.

Let Ulfric fight his own wars. Strangely I do feel the Empire is fighting for us. Not sure why, it just seems like the Empire is warmer and more optimistic. Jarls are 1000x better too. Like that chic who will be using Imperial funds to rebuild Winterhold once she's Jarl.

That's some over-analyzing there. Tullius doesn't have to run Haafingar while commanding his troops, and Ulfric doesn't have a veteran, skilled and experienced General, but he does have scores of passionate, strong and determined warriors both young and old, who fight for themselves and their land as much as they do for their beloved leader. Just because they share Ulfric's views doesn't mean it's Ulfric's war and his alone.

I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."

 

[TheQahnaarin]

'True Nords' are stuck somewhere in Atmora, and little is known about them, except that it's believed that conflict getting out of hand/wars made them flee from Atmora in the first place.

Anyway, even though I'm a bit late, time for some good old Stormcloak-Jarl bashing.

Let's start with Skald; very open about his allegiance to the Stormcloaks, and not liked as a ruler. Even argues with his own staff over and over again. Lookie here:

Skald: "Madena, can we count on your spells to assist us in this war? The Empire is bound to bring their battlemages against us."
Madena: "I told you before, Skald, I have no interest in taking sides in this war. I've no desire to be killed."
Skald: "What good is a court mage if she refuses to fight? Where's your sense of duty?"
Madena: "When I came here, my only duties were to cure crop diseases and occasionally light a bonfire on holidays. I didn't sign up to kill."
Skald: "Fine, but this isn't over Madena. We'll talk again."

Jod: "My Jarl, I have concerns about the safety of Dawnstar."
Skald: "Safety? Don't I have you to handle the town's safety? What is this about, Jod?"
Jod: "You keep pledging more and more of our guard to the frontlines. The way this is going, we won't be able to defend our own borders."
Skald: "Nonsense. The best place for our men is driving the Imperials back. I will ensure that men from Dawnstar get every opportunity for glory."
Jod: "Glory is meaningless if they have no home to return to. I urge you to lower our commitments to the front until I'm sure we're safe."
Skald: "I won't have you rob our soldiers of their chance to drive out the Empire. I'm done discussing this, Jod."

Skald: "We are poised for glory, Jod. The Empire will never take Dawnstar while every last man, woman, and child here draws breathe!"
Jod: "With respect, Jarl. You can't ask everyone to throw themselves against trained Legionnaires. Let's leave the fighting to the Stormcloaks."
Skald: "You're right. Why dilute the glory with too many souls fighting over it? We'll drive out the Empire and be celebrated as heroes when we win."
Jod: "If we win. This war is going to drag on for years. I can feel it. We need to prepare for a long struggle ahead."
Skald: "Enough of your dire predictions! We will talk about this another time."

If you read at least the last two dialogues above and still think he's a wise leader then you really shouldn't be nagging at Mede's decision to leave the Imperial City behind. Now, since I mentioned "not liked as a ruler" up there, I guess I'll throw up some dialogue from the people in Dawnstar:

That would be Jarl Skald the Elder. He's over in the White Hall, probably talking about Ulfric like he's the second coming of Talos. -Beitild
That would be Skald the Elder. He's been running Dawnstar ever since he was a boy, and he never lost that brat's attitude. Turned on the Empire first chance he got. Now we're all part of this rebellion. -Leigelf
Pfft. I'm the oldest woman in Dawnstar. Was here when the Skald the Elder was Skald the Younger. He's a fool, if you haven't met him already. Thinks Ulfric Stormcloak is invincible and spits dragon fire. The people here look to Brina Merilis when they need things settled. Real firebrand going up. Wasn't surprised when she joined the Legion. -Frida
Oh, it's just wonderful being Skald's servant. He's not demanding in the least. -Bulfrek
The Jarl is... tired. Be mindful of that. -Jod

All in all, it doesn't speak of maturity for Skald. Why isn't someone challenging him? Guess that chick who replaces him once the Empire takes over is just too nice, bleh... anyway, next is Laila Law-Giver. That woman has been efficiently manipulated by Maven and Anuriel, who is a member of her staff. To make it short, she has absolutely no clue what's going on. It's surprising she even decided to take a side in the war, or bother going for Ulfric's side. Only explanation I have would be that Riften is too close to Windhelm and she feared losing her throne; this remains pure speculation though. Some dialogue for your entertainment:

Laila: "Anuriel, a word please."
Anuriel: "Yes, my lady?"
Laila: "It's been brought to my attention that the poison known as skooma may be present in our city. What do you know of this?"
Anuriel: "I believe it to be a falsehood perpetrated by the Empire in order to weaken the citizen's confidence in your ability to rule."
Laila: "Excellent, then they'll be no need to devote any resources to stopping it. Thank you, Anuriel. That will be all."

Laila: "Harrald, I have need of you."
Harrald: "Yes mother? What is it?"
Laila: "This situation with the sewers beneath the city. I hear people have entered this place and have gone missing. Do you know of this?"
Harrald: "Yes, I've heard such things. Anuriel assures me they're just fabrications and there's nothing down there save a few stray skeever."
Laila: "Well, make sure we keep the patrols out night and day, just to be certain."

Laila: "Maven! Always a pleasure to receive you. What can I help you with today?"
Maven: "Thank you, Laila. I wanted to discuss the protection of my shipments." OR "I'm certain you're aware of the loss I sustained a fortnight ago."
Laila: "Yes, indeed. An entire caravan shipment of your mead taken by Imperial soldiers. What of it?"
Maven: "Well, I'm also certain you're aware that our own city guard failed to provide the protection required to ensure safe passage of the shipment."
Laila: "Indeed. We lost three soldiers in that attack. A sad day for Riften."
Maven: "I have payments to make you realize. If I can't make them, I can't make Black-Briar Mead." OR "Quite. To be brief, I need compensation for the lost shipment. Since Riften was responsible for it, Riften should pay for it."
Laila: "We... don't have enough to..."
Maven: "Laila, Riften is my home, but if my meadery can't be safe here, I'll just move it elsewhere."
Laila: "No, that won't be necessary. You'll have compensation for your loss."
Maven: "Thank you, Laila."

I checked for more dialogue about her but obviously even her people could care less about her, and her steward and bodyguard are too occupied with their affair I'm afraid. It's surprising Maven didn't just have her killed instead of waiting for the Legion to arrive first.

Last but not least, Korir from Winterhold. Mocking mages and elves and badmouthing them whenever he can, but has one as steward which everyone is afraid of just because he's a dark elf so they believe he has connections to the College. He also believes a fancy circlet improves Winterhold's prestige. He also encourages his son to play "Hunt the Elf". He's also adamant about who caused the Great Collapse, look here:

Few will admit it, but we know the truth about the Great Collapse.
The College is the worst thing that's ever happened to Winterhold, maybe to Skyrim.
Those cursed mages... It's their fault Winterhold is gone.
Stay clear of that College, if you know what's good for you. Nothing but foul deeds behind those walls.

Some dialogue:

Thaena: "That... wizard is still at the Inn. I can't believe Dagur allows him to stay there."
Korir: "This is what it's come to. No one seems to care what they've done to our home."
Thaena: "It's clear that memories are far too short."
Korir: "And it's clear money matters more to Dagur than honor."

And I won't even start with Ulfric. His Jarl-fail-level is off the chart.
But if the people above sound like good rulers to you, and you agree that Skyrim deserves them, then you're definitely better off as Stormcloak.

And another enters the fray.

Skald arguing within his court means nothing, debates will happen, and obviously he'll be unpopular with the citizens because he's commiting more to the war. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until democracy emerges on Tamriel things like that will happen. I'm sure the citizens of the Imperial City were thrilled when Mede put the Empire above their well-being and left them to suffer at the hands of the Dominion but it was the right decision in the end.

Laila's doing her best to look out for the Rift, she has to cater to Maven or else the whole city sinks financially. Besides, better her than Maven.

Winterhold is pretty much irrelevant, and I'm 99.9% certain the Great Collapse was the College's fault. I do wish he'd move on, but he doesn't really have the resources to do anything until the war's over at least. The Helm is comparable to what the Jagged Crown will do. Besides, it not like he commits anything but a few Septims for a visiting adventurer to retrieve it.

Ulfric can't run Eastmarch perfectly, he doesn't have a general to fight his war while he acts as Jarl. Im guessing you're talking about the segregation of Windhelm, and theres a lot more to it than just Ulfric being racist.

A brief summary of the Imperial Jarls now:

Igmund: Made a total mess of the Forsworn situation, period.

Ravencrone: As unimportant as Morthal is, she seems disliked by the majority of her town. Jorgen complains about Sorli too but no one else does, so I guess he's just a complainer.

Siddgier: Do I even need to say anything about this guy? Probably the worst Jarl in the game.

Elisif: Pretty much all her decisions are (wisely so) shot down by her court and Tullius, and it's obvious she has little to no grasp on politics.

Another thing.

Please don't try and lay blame for Markarth solely on Jarl Igmund. The situation is infinitesimally more complicated than just, "Oh well it's his fault, he made a total mess of the Hold... yada yada yada."

No, he did no such thing. Because the Forsworn murdered his father, (the Jarl at the time) Igmund called forth a Crusade to get the Hold back in Nord hands. Ulfric - your boy - agreed to spearhead this Crusade however things got out of control because Ulfric started making more demands after the Hold was recovered, turning the violence against the civilian population instead of just the Forsworn. Jarl Igmund lit the fuse and Ulfric set off the bomb which blew that situation even further into Chaos.

The Stormcloaks butchered a number of Reachmen / Imperials at Karthwastern. Was a massacre according to Leg Rikke at Season Unending. Of which Galmar did not want to take any responsibility, blaming everything on the Empire.

Seriously FFS. Who wants a Gov in Skyrim that refuses to acknowledge it's mistakes yet everything is always someone else's fault. Even the Empire admits it's faults.

Eastmarch is a 3rd world slum fest because of the hope and change brought by Ulfric to his Nords and sub Nord subjects. There are tomes which describe how things changed for the worse in Windhelm after Ulfric became Jarl. The hold has continued to slide into obscurity under his leadership and there is nobody to blame for this but him and every thing he touches turns to blood and suffering. If Whiterun can be Ind of the Empire, have Freedom of Speech and Religion AND stay Neutral with the Empire, what's stopping East Skyrim from doing the same?

Ulfric, rather than be a good Administrator and take care of his people first, provoked the Empire and instigated Civil War with a bunch of bystanders who couldn't give two pl***s otherwise about Talos or him.

Ulfric was hired and did his job but wasn't rewarded his promised payment- freedom of religion. It's as simple as that. Violence started because Reachmen rebellion was still kicking around and there was a lack of government.

The Karthwasten incident isn't brought up by anyone until the Empire has an opportunity to get some "compensation" for it. We don't even know if it happened. I think under certain circumstances the Empire is also accused of a massacre, if your willing to search through season unending dialogue.

When has the Medes ever admitted a mistake of theirs? Ulfric, in his own words, "can't afford to appear weak" to anyone supporting him and with the moot coming up.

A third world slum fest huh? My God, a medieval city (which lore wise would probably be the most populous city in Skyrim) has a neighbourhood that's a bit run-down. That "Dunmer of Skyrim" book claims the Dunmer are thriving and will one day get off their asses to enslave their foolish Nord hosts. Many citizens (including non-Nords) live very comfortably and Dunmer and Argonians have homes, no ones going hungry, and have jobs available should they choose to take them. All in a horrible climate during a war-time.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Just because she's a bad employer and mother doesn't mean she's a bad Jarl.

No, but it does show her poor decision making along with how she blindly believes everything her steward tells her, along with trusting someone like Maven. She even says Maven is one of the few people she trusts in the city. Says enough I think about her leadership. If she cannot lead, what makes you think she has the right to rule?

Why should I sugarcoat it? Winterhold's population is gone, their economy gone, and everyone's too afraid of the College for anyone to go near the place. They can't even field all of their own guard force: "Hard to believe I ever complained about Riften being cold."

Winterhold is strategically important to Ulfric, his Northern border is exposed without it, so yes, he would send troops to defend it.

So you undermine an Entire province of skyrim because they seem to be "useless"? Last I checked, the Guard reaches all the way out to the mine southern of Winterhold. Ulfric isn't a fool, he would use allies from anywhere if it provides the exposed area protection. This is why Mage says the Stormcloak Skyrim would fall apart after Ulfric's death. You wouldn't support Winterhold, Skald would send every last child to their deaths, Law Giver would be about as useful as a wet paper towel since Maven is the actual leader and.. was their someone else?

Care to offer your explanation on the Great Collapse then? I find the Red Mountain story extremely far-fetched, and there's no other reason provided for it. I don't know why you think the Arch-Mage would be forthcoming about the information. Many mages you can interact with during Skyrim at the college perform very reckless experiments, so I find it more likely than a tsunami caused by a volcano that erupted over a 100 years before.

Magic has fallen out of favour all across Tamriel since the Oblivion Crisis, even the Mages Guild fell apart because of it.

Only two members of the College perform reckless experiments around the time you join, both of which are students and they do it inside college grounds and the other sends you to kill undead, away from people.

As for the Volcano, it's very possible when the Ash Spawn started appearing as well in Solsthiem, not sure when they started becoming to be, but it's one theory. Point is, blaming someone blindly is dangerous, ignorance leads to pointless fighting and death.

Tamriel was almost taken over by Molag Bal at one point, yet the Mage's Guild held strong. Magic is part of the world, it's not something shunned except by Redguards and Nords usually. And even the Nords still use enchanted weapons. Hypocritical eh?

I thought I explained why she has to suck up to Maven. If she leaves the whole hold goes under. The Septims had major family issues but still formed the greatest dynasty that ever ruled Tamriel. Putting a child on house arrest because he's gonna end up stirring the pot in an already uneasy situation is nothing compared to what some of the Septims did.

Please don't put quotation marks around something I never said. Ulfric's death wouldnt even come near as bad as things will be for the Empire with Mede assassinated.

One almost ends up replacing Skyrim's most needed hero with livestock, another almost incinerates them, a seemingly experienced member ends up removing himself from time or something like that, the Augur has done God knows what to himself, the Arch Mage almost released a Dragon Priest and had to sacrifice two colleagues because of it, and then there's the decision to bring the Eye back from Saarthal. I haven't played the College questline in a while so I could probably find more examples but that's what I got off the top of my head. So yes, I'd say they're quite reckless.

Ash Spawn are a product of Ildari if I'm not mistaken, so they have little to do with side-effects of Red Mountain. And it's smarter to fear something without justification than it is to continue to tolerate a probable threat. Ask the Blades.

I'm guessing the Oblivion Crisis was the last straw for most. Not neccassarily all magic, but needlessly risky and darker magic. Hold Guards "have a lot of respect for the Restoration School", Jarls employ court wizards, everyone gets priest's and shrine's blessings, and like you said, use enchanted weapons.

 

[Ivory]

I thought I explained why she has to suck up to Maven. If she leaves the whole hold goes under. The Septims had major family issues but still formed the greatest dynasty that ever ruled Tamriel. Putting a child on house arrest because he's gonna end up stirring the pot in an already uneasy situation is nothing compared to what some of the Septims did.

Greatest Dynasty isn't something I would say. The Septim Bloodline is full of power hungry, insane rulers. Clearly something went wrong somewhere down the line up until the Emperor who was seemingly a good ruler before the oblivion crisis was assassinated. Probably one of the first Septims in who knows how long to not be completely insane.

Please don't put quotation marks around something I never said. Ulfric's death wouldnt even come near as bad as things will be for the Empire with Mede assassinated.

I apologize. "Irrelevant" then. How would it not be as bad when none of the rulers would be anywhere near the same level as Ulfric? It will lead to more fighting amongst the Jarls just as they had in ancient times.

One almost ends up replacing Skyrim's most needed hero with livestock, another almost incinerates them, a seemingly experienced member ends up removing himself from time or something like that, the Augur has done God knows what to himself, the Arch Mage almost released a Dragon Priest and had to sacrifice two colleagues because of it, and then there's the decision to bring the Eye back from Saarthal. I haven't played the College questline in a while so I could probably find more examples but that's what I got off the top of my head. So yes, I'd say they're quite reckless.

1. Student of Magic. Also optional.
2. Student of Magic. Also optional.
3. I assume you're talking about the Dwemer researcher? Fair enough.
4. Augur transcended a mortal coil. He became something much more powerful and is clearly wise enough to know and see how to prevent dangerous issues.
5. The Archmage at the time was a student. He clearly became far more humble after the countless deaths of his friends. [/quote]

Ash Spawn are a product of Ildari if I'm not mistaken, so they have little to do with side-effects of Red Mountain.

I'll look into it, because those Ash spawn form in the burial ash area of the city's tombs. I doubt she planted them there.

I'm guessing the Oblivion Crisis was the last straw for most. Not neccassarily all magic, but needlessly risky and darker magic. Hold Guards "have a lot of respect for the Restoration School", Jarls employ court wizards, everyone gets priest's and shrine's blessings, and like you said, use enchanted weapons.

The only two "darker" magics are Conjuration and Necromancy.

And Restoration is far darker than both of those schools. It siphons life, creates diseases, and much more deadly situations can occur if someone wanted to abuse it's power.

That can be again said about every single school of magic. It's not magic itself that's the problem, it's the user. Something the Jarl of winterhold is too blind to see due to his hatred, but that's a topic for another time.

Also, considering the Archmage is probably the only one who was alive at the time of the destruction of winterhold, I'm far more inclined to believe him since in all odds, he was probably there at the time.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

@Ivory
It's pretty much undebated by its citizens Tamriel was as good as it got under the Septims.

I didn't say it wouldn't be bad, but the actual assassination of Mede will have far worse consequences than this hypothetical assassination of Ulfric.

Still, would you agree that it's not all that far-fetched to say it's possible for a College member to perform an experiment that could lead to the Collapse?

Maybe they tunneled into the tomb or Ildari can animate them over long distances? I found UESP saying that Ildari did create them.

Restoration is the only school with spells specifically meant for healing and saving lives. I wouldn't say that's darker than summoning demons, raising the dead and capturing souls

I'm more inclined to reason there are no other believable explanations and that it's very possible for a member of the College to have caused it. I'm also not inclined to believe the leader of an organization who has everything to lose by admitting they sunk an entire city.

 

[Ivory]

I'm more inclined to reason there are no other believable explanations and that it's very possible for a member of the College to have caused it. I'm also not inclined to believe the leader of an organization who has everything to lose by admitting they sunk an entire city.

Even if that was the case, it was what, over a hundred years ago and none of the current college members except maybe the archmage and other elves were alive at the time so they can't be properly blamed in this day and age. None of them express any desire to hurt anyone intentionally. After all, they do save Winterhold after the Thalmor tried to unmake the world and are still blamed for it. Made out to be horrible people when all they want is to be left alone to study real magic.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

I'm more inclined to reason there are no other believable explanations and that it's very possible for a member of the College to have caused it. I'm also not inclined to believe the leader of an organization who has everything to lose by admitting they sunk an entire city.

Even if that was the case, it was what, over a hundred years ago and none of the current college members except maybe the archmage and other elves were alive at the time so they can't be properly blamed in this day and age. None of them express any desire to hurt anyone intentionally. After all, they do save Winterhold after the Thalmor tried to unmake the world and are still blamed for it. Made out to be horrible people when all they want is to be left alone to study real magic.

Whether there's intent or not, they still need to be held accountable for their actions. Countless dead, a whole city gone, but you think everyone should just forgive and forget and let them carry on? Don't act like they're the victims here.

 

[Ivory]

Whether there's intent or not, they still need to be held accountable for their actions. Countless dead, a whole city gone, but you think everyone should just forgive and forget and let them carry on? Don't act like they're the victims here.

If you've never killed Paarthurnax, or don't agree with the Blades, you're being a hypocrite.

If you use Odahviing you're being a hypocrite.

If you use Durnaviir you're being a hypocrite.

By your logic, Falmer have the right to slaughter all present day Nords for what the Atmorans did to their people. See how that results in a circle? Same can be said for the alyeid people

If the Daggerfall covenant which was the Bretons, Redguards and orcs could do it leading up until the rise of tiber Septim, and dark elves, Argonians and Nords can, why can't they do so now?

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Whether there's intent or not, they still need to be held accountable for their actions. Countless dead, a whole city gone, but you think everyone should just forgive and forget and let them carry on? Don't act like they're the victims here.

If you've never killed Paarthurnax, or don't agree with the Blades, you're being a hypocrite.

If you use Odahviing you're being a hypocrite.

If you use Durnaviir you're being a hypocrite.

By your logic, Falmer have the right to slaughter all present day Nords for what the Atmorans did to their people. See how that results in a circle? Same can be said for the alyeid people

If the Daggerfall covenant which was the Bretons, Redguards and orcs could do it leading up until the rise of tiber Septim, and dark elves, Argonians and Nords can, why can't they do so now?

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Paarthurnax has done his best to make amends and Alduin would never have been defeated either time if not for him. The College hasn't made amends for their mistake, they haven't even admitted to it. In fact they haven't even learned from their experience as they're still tampering with incredibly dangerous stuff by the events of Skyrim.

Since you asked, no, I hardly ever use Odahviing or Durnehviir. Not neccassarily for those reasons, but no.

It frusterates me so much when people blame Atmorans for wiping out the Snow Elves. Maybe they'd still be around if they hadn't started the whole war by committing unprovoked genocide at Saarthal.

Are you serious? Those damn slaves, how dare they overthrow their brutal, daedra-worshipping masters? I have never once seen someone try to defend the Aylieds. Ever.

I'm getting a trend of you trying to turn offenders into victims.

 

[Ivory]

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Paarthurnax has done his best to make amends and Alduin would never have been defeated either time if not for him. The College hasn't made amends for their mistake, they haven't even admitted to it. In fact they haven't even learned from their experience as they're still tampering with incredibly dangerous stuff by the events of Skyrim.

Since you asked, no, I hardly ever use Odahviing or Durnehviir. Not neccassarily for those reasons, but no.

It frusterates me so much when people blame Atmorans for wiping out the Snow Elves. Maybe they'd still be around if they hadn't started the whole war by committing unprovoked genocide at Saarthal.

Are you serious? Those damn slaves, how dare they overthrow their brutal, daedra-worshipping masters? I have never once seen someone try to defend the Aylieds. Ever.

I'm getting a trend of you trying to turn offenders into victims.

1. The College saved Winterhold from Ancano. That sounds pretty much like they care don't you?

2. I love paar, but he did the same thing the College did, and this is going with your lacking in evidence that the college did destroy the city. Paar didn't make amends, he taught mankind to use the voice and it was still the Dragonborn who defeats Alduin.

3. Do you really think every single Snow elf was responsible for their genocide? Like how every Nord is racist right? See the problem there? I don't NOT blame some snow elves for saarthal, but realistically there is no way every single last Snow elf supported the deaths of mankind.

4. The Ayleids did not ALL support the Daedric worshipping Ayleids. Even after the war, many were teachers to the new leaders and Empire and the Last King of the Ayleids actually fought against the Alessians during the genocide of the Direnni people along side a Breton who fought against the humans for their genocidal religious zealotry.

Elder Scrolls is not black and white, and it frustrates me when someone says "It's all the Snow elves fault." or "It's all the Ayleid's fault." You don't like when people call all stormcloaks racist? Don't do it when you argue against Snow elves and Ayleids.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Paarthurnax has done his best to make amends and Alduin would never have been defeated either time if not for him. The College hasn't made amends for their mistake, they haven't even admitted to it. In fact they haven't even learned from their experience as they're still tampering with incredibly dangerous stuff by the events of Skyrim.

Since you asked, no, I hardly ever use Odahviing or Durnehviir. Not neccassarily for those reasons, but no.

It frusterates me so much when people blame Atmorans for wiping out the Snow Elves. Maybe they'd still be around if they hadn't started the whole war by committing unprovoked genocide at Saarthal.

Are you serious? Those damn slaves, how dare they overthrow their brutal, daedra-worshipping masters? I have never once seen someone try to defend the Aylieds. Ever.

I'm getting a trend of you trying to turn offenders into victims.

1. The College saved Winterhold from Ancano. That sounds pretty much like they care don't you?

2. I love paar, but he did the same thing the College did, and this is going with your lacking in evidence that the college did destroy the city. Paar didn't make amends, he taught mankind to use the voice and it was still the Dragonborn who defeats Alduin.

3. Do you really think every single Snow elf was responsible for their genocide? Like how every Nord is racist right? See the problem there? I don't NOT blame some snow elves for saarthal, but realistically there is no way every single last Snow elf supported the deaths of mankind.

4. The Ayleids did not ALL support the Daedric worshipping Ayleids. Even after the war, many were teachers to the new leaders and Empire and the Last King of the Ayleids actually fought against the Alessians during the genocide of the Direnni people along side a Breton who fought against the humans for their genocidal religious zealotry.

Elder Scrolls is not black and white, and it frustrates me when someone says "It's all the Snow elves fault." or "It's all the Ayleid's fault." You don't like when people call all stormcloaks racist? Don't do it when you argue against Snow elves and Ayleids.

1. After a dumb decision to remove the Eye from Saarthal and letting a Thalmor operative into the College when they're under no obligation to do so.

2. How didn't Paar make amends? The Dragonborn would've had no idea what to do without his guidance. He wouldn't have even been born because Alduin would be ruling the world currently. Paar was born into the service of Alduin, no ones making the College perform their dangerous experiments.

3. Obviously not all of them, but then almost all of them went to war with the Companions afterwards.

4. Yeah... The Alessians went a little crazy after they won but it seems to me up until the rebellion no Aylieds thought twice about keeping slaves.

I never said it was every Snow Elf or Aylied's fault. I said you can't blame the Atmorans or Alessians and the Falmer and Aylieds have no one to blame but themselves or whoever was making decisions for them.

 

[Ivory]

1. After a dumb decision to remove the Eye from Saarthal and letting a Thalmor operative into the College when they're under no obligation to do so.

2. How didn't Paar make amends? The Dragonborn would've had no idea what to do without his guidance. He wouldn't have even been born because Alduin would be ruling the world currently. Paar was born into the service of Alduin, no ones making the College perform their dangerous experiments.

3. Obviously not all of them, but then almost all of them went to war with the Companions afterwards.

4. Yeah... The Alessians went a little crazy after they won but it seems to me up until the rebellion no Aylieds thought twice about keeping slaves.

I never said it was every Snow Elf or Aylied's fault. I said you can't blame the Atmorans or Alessians and the Falmer and Aylieds have no one to blame but themselves or whoever was making decisions for them.

1. Yes, let's just leave it in a tomb that now anyone can get into instead of the one place left in skyrim that actually understands magic more than anywhere else. Beautiful idea.

2. Right, so using that logic, if it wasn't for the College then Winterhold would have been destroyed. The College didn't have to protect Winterhold when the Magical Anomalies attacked, but they chose to. Paar was not born into Alduin's service. Dragons chose who to follow, just as Odahviing does when you defeat Alduin, as did Durneviir did when he chose to follow the path of Necromancy. When you talk to the zombie dragon he tells you how Dragons back then fought for territory constantly.

3. Or they had to defend themselves after they were defeated to the death. Once the snow elves of Skyrim were left on Solsthiem the Atmorans easily could have stopped there, but did they? No. They continued to wipe them out. They hunted them like animals. The issue here is if a country attacked another because the leaders wanted to rule, and then the country that was attacked comes back and slaughters everyone, regardless of what the people's opinions were, well, as Kodlak says, "You've taken more lives than Honor demanded."

Either way, we've fallen off topic here, though quite an amusing argument nonetheless. Thanks.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I'm more inclined to reason there are no other believable explanations and that it's very possible for a member of the College to have caused it. I'm also not inclined to believe the leader of an organization who has everything to lose by admitting they sunk an entire city.

Even if that was the case, it was what, over a hundred years ago and none of the current college members except maybe the archmage and other elves were alive at the time so they can't be properly blamed in this day and age. None of them express any desire to hurt anyone intentionally. After all, they do save Winterhold after the Thalmor tried to unmake the world and are still blamed for it. Made out to be horrible people when all they want is to be left alone to study real magic.

Whether there's intent or not, they still need to be held accountable for their actions. Countless dead, a whole city gone, but you think everyone should just forgive and forget and let them carry on? Don't act like they're the victims here.

Whoa.

I've read the last page or so and Imperials just will not understand what the Qahn is trying to convey here. Yeah, I know, I know however you have to feel their pain, in order to remain sane.

And it's this outrage, this bitterness, this blame game that drives the Stormcloaks. To some extent, I can see why they're angry and maybe they should be.

I've always said the Stormcloaks were the weakest link however, that doesn't make them weak. What it boils down to... is the Stormcloaks want to be left alone. They want everyone ~ whom they feel has wronged them ~ off their land and out of their lives.

So, the more rational thinking Imperial will immed dismiss the Stormcloak argument for what have you. The Stormcloaks feel they've been wronged, let down, abandoned, knife in back and well... used so many times in the past that they want a new beginning.

They see Ulfric as this "New Beginning" and they don't mind that he's a loon, because so are they. Not to imply any disrespect, just in the sense that the Stormcloaks are tired of being rational when folks aren't rational towards them. So then the obvious conclusion is to rebel thru irrationality.

You can't have a rational rebellion against a Gov that has corrupted the def of "civility". At least according to them. So what we're perceiving as being an "off the wall argument" makes perfect sense when you consider how much pain, loss and suffering the 'cloaks have incurred because of the Empire. And the Empire is to blame for at least some of it.

Still, Ulfric drew swords against his countrymen FIRST, what honor is there in slaying them who honor you?

To illustrate, there was someone I once admired, held them as friend. Out of no where came the back stab, it was really bad and never had this person discussed the matter with me before. Suppose I was in the wrong, people make mistakes. However, one can make a mistake and still be honorable, as opposed to someone else pretending to be honorable and making no mistake.

And I don't care who started what, TRUST is the key to any relationship. Without Trust, there is no hope for cooperation. Emperor Mede and Jarl Ulfric both violated this Trust. Eliminating them gives the relationship a chance again, to close Pandora's box in just enough time to keep hope alive.

 

[-The Ice Queen-]

You know, after doing lots of research (I am good at that), I shall be a turn cloak (pun intended) and side with the Stormcloaks. Skyrim can definitely defend itself.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Even if that was the case, it was what, over a hundred years ago and none of the current college members except maybe the archmage and other elves were alive at the time so they can't be properly blamed in this day and age. None of them express any desire to hurt anyone intentionally. After all, they do save Winterhold after the Thalmor tried to unmake the world and are still blamed for it. Made out to be horrible people when all they want is to be left alone to study real magic.

Whether there's intent or not, they still need to be held accountable for their actions. Countless dead, a whole city gone, but you think everyone should just forgive and forget and let them carry on? Don't act like they're the victims here.

Whoa.

I've read the last page or so and Imperials just will not understand what the Qahn is trying to convey here. Yeah, I know, I know however you have to feel their pain, in order to remain sane.

And it's this outrage, this bitterness, this blame game that drives the Stormcloaks. To some extent, I can see why they're angry and maybe they should be.

I've always said the Stormcloaks were the weakest link however, that doesn't make them weak. What it boils down to... is the Stormcloaks want to be left alone. They want everyone ~ whom they feel has wronged them ~ off their land and out of their lives.

So, the more rational thinking Imperial will immed dismiss the Stormcloak argument for what have you. The Stormcloaks feel they've been wronged, let down, abandoned, knife in back and well... used so many times in the past that they want a new beginning.

They see Ulfric as this "New Beginning" and they don't mind that he's a loon, because so are they. Not to imply any disrespect, just in the sense that the Stormcloaks are tired of being rational when folks aren't rational towards them. So then the obvious conclusion is to rebel thru irrationality.

You can't have a rational rebellion against a Gov that has corrupted the def of "civility". At least according to them. So what we're perceiving as being an "off the wall argument" makes perfect sense when you consider how much pain, loss and suffering the 'cloaks have incurred because of the Empire. And the Empire is to blame for at least some of it.

Still, Ulfric drew swords against his countrymen FIRST, what honor is there in slaying them who honor you?

To illustrate, there was someone I once admired, held them as friend. Out of no where came the back stab, it was really bad and never had this person discussed the matter with me before. Suppose I was in the wrong, people make mistakes. However, one can make a mistake and still be honorable, as opposed to someone else pretending to be honorable and making no mistake.

And I don't care who started what, TRUST is the key to any relationship. Without Trust, there is no hope for cooperation. Emperor Mede and Jarl Ulfric both violated this Trust. Eliminating them gives the relationship a chance again, to close Pandora's box in just enough time to keep hope alive.

You have some good points here, you also have to understand how important honour and traditions are to Nords. They have been shamed by the Dominion and now their customs are becoming harder and harder to keep to. Your right about them wanting a "new beginning", where they can look after themselves before anyone else, but it's also a chance to redeem themselves and their honour. They'll show the Empire they don't need them, and they'll show the Dominion they are the superior force. They want to prove to themselves and the world they're still the fierce, independant and strong people of Skyrim.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

1. After a dumb decision to remove the Eye from Saarthal and letting a Thalmor operative into the College when they're under no obligation to do so.

2. How didn't Paar make amends? The Dragonborn would've had no idea what to do without his guidance. He wouldn't have even been born because Alduin would be ruling the world currently. Paar was born into the service of Alduin, no ones making the College perform their dangerous experiments.

3. Obviously not all of them, but then almost all of them went to war with the Companions afterwards.

4. Yeah... The Alessians went a little crazy after they won but it seems to me up until the rebellion no Aylieds thought twice about keeping slaves.

I never said it was every Snow Elf or Aylied's fault. I said you can't blame the Atmorans or Alessians and the Falmer and Aylieds have no one to blame but themselves or whoever was making decisions for them.

1. Yes, let's just leave it in a tomb that now anyone can get into instead of the one place left in skyrim that actually understands magic more than anywhere else. Beautiful idea.

2. Right, so using that logic, if it wasn't for the College then Winterhold would have been destroyed. The College didn't have to protect Winterhold when the Magical Anomalies attacked, but they chose to. Paar was not born into Alduin's service. Dragons chose who to follow, just as Odahviing does when you defeat Alduin, as did Durneviir did when he chose to follow the path of Necromancy. When you talk to the zombie dragon he tells you how Dragons back then fought for territory constantly.

3. Or they had to defend themselves after they were defeated to the death. Once the snow elves of Skyrim were left on Solsthiem the Atmorans easily could have stopped there, but did they? No. They continued to wipe them out. They hunted them like animals. The issue here is if a country attacked another because the leaders wanted to rule, and then the country that was attacked comes back and slaughters everyone, regardless of what the people's opinions were, well, as Kodlak says, "You've taken more lives than Honor demanded."

Either way, we've fallen off topic here, though quite an amusing argument nonetheless. Thanks.

Alright, as much as we should move on:

1. College of Mages and no one can put a decent ward or magical lock on it?
2. The Dov fought for territory once Alduin was defeated and they had no one to follow. Arngier says all Dragons served Alduin until the rebellion. Also it's not like the Mages are evil or anything, I would expect them to help out the townsfolk. Also letting them overrun the town would leave the college open to attack. It's their recklessness and willingness to perform experiments that could cause harm to others that's the problem.
3. But they couldn't let the massacre go unanswered, and if they reached a truce with the elves, it would just lead to another war down the line, like we're seeing with the Empire and the Dominion. It was either humans would be forever confined to Atmora, or the elves would be defeated for good, there was no in between. Kodlak's talking about revenge for one man, this was vengeance for an entire city, almost every Atmoran living in Tamriel.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

When will this accursed war end?