Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mirrored]

Almost the same terms. Not the same.

And what changed, exactly?

No they didn't.

'The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion.' - The Great War

'Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier.' - The Great War

The Eight/Nine Divines were the creation of the Empire. The Talos ban was so poorly enforced, that it once took the Thalmor seven days to arrest one Nord who was going about Talos in public. In Markarth... where the Justiciar's have Headquarters.

It is called postponement. The next war is coming.

Poorly enforced? Tell that to all the people who've been abducted by them instead of focusing on a single example. Throughout Skyrim, you regularly encounter Thalmor squads escorting their captives to their prisons.

A good leader knows when and when not to fight. Leading your Military to the death isn't good, you've just left thousands of your innocent civilians at the mercy of the Aldmeri Dominion. Things would of been 1000 times worse, had the Aldmeri won.

The Empire essentially lost a little less than half it's forces during the war, but they were still standing and ready to fight. Given that Hammerfell alone was able to defeat what was left of the Dominion's forces, he could've continued the war without risking total defeat.

Skyrim and High Rock welcomed peace. The war had affected all the provinces of the Empire, either directly or indirectly. Thousands of Nords had died, and Skyrim had lost the source where most of their silver comes from. High Rock later lost Wayrest to pirates.

High Rock, perhaps. Skyrim? Surrender is anathema to the Nords. Even among those who support the Empire, there are many who will freely admit that they don't agree with the things they've done. They simply don't believe it's worth destroying the Empire over. Which is predictable, since all the holds that stayed loyal during the civil war are economically dependent on the Empire to some degree.

Notice how half of Skyrim supports the Empire. Those that support Ulfric Stormcloak, many of those supporters only sided with him several months ago. No one else was talking about independence in the Moot.

We don't know what they were talking about during the previous Moot. In fact, given that there was a Moot at all we can guess something unusual was being discussed. Ordinarily, it only occurs when there is no direct heir to the Throne of High King or or if the previous king was challenged and lost. That wasn't the case for Torygg.

Hammerfell always considered themselves "Part of the Empire, but not a subject". They refused the White-Gold Concordat, Skyrim and High Rock... shockingly didn't. So obviously many welcomed peace or they would of followed Hammerfell.

Or, it could be the fact that the Empire handed over most of Hammerfell's territory to the Dominion that made the difference. Also, we learn during the civil war that the Empire bought off the Jarls to get them to support the Concordat. Even if the popular sentiment was to continue the fight, the Nords wouldn't have rebelled against their own leaders at that point in time. It was only after nearly 3 decades of enduring the Thalmor's little inquisition while the Empire did nothing that the people finally said enough.

And they fought a greatly weakened force, which they couldn't of even done so without the Legion in the first place. It was the Imperial Legion that halted the Dominion in Hammerfell and then drove them back across the province.

Redguards are famous warriors, one of the most naturally talented. They were fighting in their home turf, on their terms. Using most probably guerrilla warfare like in the Great War. They also didn't drive them, they signed a peace treaty and the Dominion left peacefully.

It ruined their province greatly.

So, the Dominion abandoned their attempted conquest of Hammerfell for no reason? You're arguing semantics again. They were forced to retreat.

My point is simple. If the people of Hammerfell, weakened and alone, were able to force the Dominion to back down, the Empire, which still had at least over half of it's forces, could have done the same had the war continued. In fact, they didn't even need to do that much. All the Empire had to do was drag out the war until the Thalmor were ready to agree to an actual peace treaty, instead of the virtual surrender represented by the White-Gold Concordat.

They did, completely wiped out a main Aldmeri army. But they were left greatly weakened from taking the Imperial City, the Aldmeri were entrenched within. The Empire had a greatly weakened army to begin with.

They were weakened, yes, but so was the Dominion.

Could've done so as well, how? Send their forces into Hammerfell? Leave Cyrodiil wide open to attack? The Empire had zero idea of what was beyond their borders, the Blades had all but been wiped out. Titus Mede II, had no idea what was out there.

The Empire still had at least 15 functioning legions, though they were all at half-strength. They could have sent two to three legions to reinforce Hammerfell while using the rest to fortify their borders to deter another invasion. The Dominion likely would've been forced to withdraw from Hammerfell much earlier, and the war would've came to an end on the Empire's terms.

As for the lack of intel, it's pretty simple. Titus Mede II went into the Great War without knowing the full extent of the Dominion's military power against the advice of his generals. He faced the same choice following the Battle of the Red Ring. He could either fight not knowing the odds, or surrender. He chose to surrender.

Infighting between the Crowns and Forebears. That is political infighting, they weren't fighting some Civil War or this great internal conflict. They've always had petty infighting between the two political factions.

Even still, it makes no difference how they were before the war. They united as one during the war.

We don't know the extent of the infighting in Hammerfell during that time period. It could've been purely political, or there could've been violence involved. Point is, Hammerfell was weakened even before the war began.

Yes, to restore order, repair cities, replenish the ranks. Takes time.

So, it took decades to accomplish all of this, and they have so little to show for it. Hm.

Twenty six.

I rounded up.

Ambushing Ulfric and a handful of his troops is hardly an amazing display of military might. Never mind the fact that even if they had succeeded in executing Ulfric, he would have become a martyr and his cause would have continued.

Speculation. The Empire has been restoring the Legion, we can tell this by several things.

1) Tullius mentions majority of the Imperial Legion is on the Dominion's borders.

2) There is a new Imperial Force assembling in Cyrodiil, south of Pale Pass to march into Skyrim.

3) There are Legion patrols being assigned to escort trade shipments, which indicates they do have man power to spare.

4) The Empire also employs thousands of mercenaries.

1. And?

2. I've never heard of this before. Can you provide a reference?

3. So they can provide escorts to nobles and trade shipments, but they don't have the men to spare to send Tullius reinforcements when the war goes south? They really need to get their priorities straight then.

4. And?

It doesn't make sense, because you're the only one saying it

He's had 26 years to rebuild his army, and what has he done with it? Has he booted the Thalmor from the Empire? Has he made any effort to stand up to the Dominion or shown any backbone? Nope. Instead, you've got high-ranking Imperial officials like General Tullius tip-toeing around and attending Thalmor parties to avoid offending the Dominion and risking the peace.

That's not the behavior of an Empire preparing for war. It's the behavior of a weak government trying to appease an enemy to avoid conflict. Doesn't quite match up with the idea that Titus II was just buying time to recover and regroup, or that the Legion has recovered.

The Empire was giving some of Hammerfell's territory, which the Aldmeri Dominion had already occupied. They were entrenched in those parts. Generally when you're signing a peace treaty, you keep what you control.

And it just so happened to be the same tract of land they'd asked for in the beginning. Hm.

They're allowed to arrest those who break the law. No one is happy about it, but it wasn't so bad before Ulfric started to stir things up. If they're allowed to arrest anyone with full Imperial support... why can't the head of the Thalmor Justiciar's arrest one simple Nord in Markarth?

Got any evidence that the Thalmor didn't bother with arresting folks who worshiped Talos before Ulfric came along? Besides, the only thing Ulfric 'stirred up' was the open worship of Talos because he represented the freedom to do so. And they are allowed to arrest anyone they can 'prove' to have worshiped Talos. Once Ondolemar has evidence to back up his accusations, the Nord gets arrested.

The Sons of Skyrim were formed to further Ulfric's ambitions. They were his personal army, and the originals of them were at the Markarth Incident.

So, his soldiers followed him for the fun of it, then? They weren't angry about the Concordat, they were just content to be Ulfric's personal militia to feed his ego? They followed Ulfric because they believed in his ideals, just as the Stormcloaks would in years to come.

Ulfric didn't have much support until he killed Torygg.

Any evidence? Why exactly would Ulfric's duel with the High King cause large swaths of people to suddenly decide he had the right of things? No, people supported Ulfric from the beginning because they despised the Concordat. The death of Torygg simply emboldened his supporters into taking action.

The Thalmor are using the war for a reason to increase their presence. It is why you hear Rikke go on about "Their damned inquisition" and why the Dossier mentions Imperial victory will harm their overall position in Skyrim.

Why? Because the Thalmor need permission to arrest people. While the Civil War rages, there is a lack of guards and legion soldiers to keep an eye on the Thalmor.

Their presence in Skyrim is heavy because it's a hotbed of Talos worship and open defiance of the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. An Imperial victory will harm their long term goals in Skyrim because the Empire will no longer have to devote troops to quelling a rebellion.

He accepted his death. Much in the very same way Uriel VII accepted his death, even though he knew his death would cause much destruction because Oblivion Gates couldn't open while he was alive.

Except he knew he would die, and he willingly walked towards his death.

It's been a while since I've played Oblivion, but the last time I checked Uriel didn't even have a chance to defend himself. The assassin who killed him came out of nowhere and stabbed him in the back before he could even respond. He'd accepted his death, but like I've said previously, there is a difference between accepting your death at the hands of a superior enemy and just letting them kill you.

Why would it be? You never heard of Uriel VII's heirs until they were dead. Titus Mede II has an aunt still living, the blood line is still there. If he had no heir, you would hear about it. Why? Because people mention things like that, an Empire without any Emperors or anyone for succession.

And even after Mede dies, we hear nothing about his heirs or the identity of the next Emperor. Surely if it was cut and dry, we'd have a name for the new Emperor. Unless it hadn't been decided because he had no heirs. As for him having an aunt, how do you figure? All we know is that Vittoria Vici was his cousin. We don't know how distant the relationship was ( First Cousins? Second?), or if he had any living kin aside from her.

Tullius is the Military Governor of Skyrim and is there with the authority of the Emperor. He has to worry about Imperial politics, because he is now a major player in Imperial politics. He's the acting Head of State for Skyrim.

By Imperial politics, I mean 'Cyrodiil' politics. He's busy in Skyrim trying to put down a rebellion. I sincerely doubt he's concerned about who the Elder Council will put on Throne while he has a war to fight, unless the whole issue collapses into violence.

We also know the nobility who are present around the Thalmor do not trust them, they say they want peace, but as noted by their emotion in the game files. They don't believe a word of it. Many of the Jarls despise the Thalmor, and Tullius outright hate them.

We know the nobility in Skyrim doesn't trust them. That doesn't mean they haven't been able to influence them or the nobles in Cyrodiil.

What is the man going to do? You're a Dark Brotherhood assassin. Do you understand what that means?

The assassination is now known to have been the work of a group of daedric cultists known as the Mythic Dawn. (Those who still suspect the Dark Brotherhood should consider two facts: first, they would have only needed a single assassin, not a small army of them; second, the Dark Brotherhood would never be so foolish as to effectively declare war on the Empire and thus ensure their complete destruction. Witness the eventual fate of the Mythic Dawn.) - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Oblivion_Crisis

How can I sleep at night knowing my Legion can't possibly save the life of someone marked for death by the Dark Brotherhood? - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Night_Mother_Rituals!

The same Dark Brotherhood that has nearly been purged from the Empire aside from a single den of assassins in Skyrim? The same Dark Brotherhood that can be wiped out by a decent warrior? Simply because they were a bunch of boogeymen in the past doesn't mean he had to believe his death was inevitable. And even if he did, he still could've tried to defend himself and died with a bit of dignity.

 

[Jeremius]

I am staying out of the argument. Both sides are wrong, but they are also both right. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Grr late reply I know, but my internet died just when I was about to write more.. ><

And....what happened as a result of signing the White-Gold Concordat? Civil War. Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the treaty and the Empire abandoned them to the Thalmor. Then, only a few years later infighting broke out in Skyrim. Signing the treaty was always going to end in civil war because of just how repulsive the terms were. Mede knew this when he started the war, and he knew this when he surrendered. As I said, he faced the same choice before the war and after the Battle of the Red Ring. He could either fight, or let the Empire die slowly as a slave-state to the Dominion.

As for the Empire being tired of war, the people of Hammerfell refused to give in and continued to fight. The Nords were furious, both at the sheer dishonor of surrendering to an enemy they believed they could defeat and because they were being forced to sacrifice their traditions to the elves. The only people who might've welcomed peace at any cost were the citizens of Cyrodiil, which is hardly surprising since they've always been made of weaker stuff than the rest of the Empire.

I never said fighting back was necessary to accept death. I said there is a difference between accepting that your death is inevitable, and simply letting it take you without a fight. Accepting that you can't defeat or escape a superior opponent is one thing. Letting them kill you without even trying to defend yourself is another.

Yes, Civil War happened. 26 years after the war, and only in a single province. Had he just signed over in the beginning the entire Empire would be fighting against each other. With a full-sized Aldmeri army waiting right in the next province south.
Of course Titus knew this treaty would bring trouble, the first sign was Hammerfell leaving the Empire. But he had little choice; as much as we might think that all the Thalmor do is muscling and trying to impress people, we don't know if that's just show or really some plan they're having.
Either way, having everyone killed for honor isn't really in Titus interest. Thankfully never was.
The Empire is no slave-state. They're on a shock-collar-leash thing, and being watched, but not a slave-state.

While Imperials don't look that heroic than some hairy Nord raging into a battlefield, the Imperials too have a history of fighting, and that successfully as well. They had to free themselves of the Ayleid, you know, who weren't much of the kind, caring sort either.

His death was inevitable. He was unarmed, without any means of defense against an assassin of the Dark Brotherhood. The only way his death could be prevented would be the assassin getting a heart attack from climbing stairs or something like that.

It really depends on which one seems more appealing with titles: legate or stormcloak officer. Most of the quests are the same but if you hate ulfric or tullius go with the opposite side. I personally have gone with both and there are no significant changes in either quest line apart from the quest to join either faction.


Yours sincerely
That really random guy from across the road

Tullius is funnier. When doing the Bard's College questline and making preparations for the burning of the King Olaf straw doll you would be able to ask Tullius for his coat for the doll, he wasn't too happy about that question but still gave you his coat. Too bad that part was cut too.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And what changed, exactly?

The staggering tributes weren't mentioned in the White-Gold Concordat.

'The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion.' - The Great War

'Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier.' - The Great War

Almost identical, not the same. So you're contradicting yourself, since you're using the original ultimatum as evidence and then showing that the White-Gold Concordat wasn't the exact same.

Poorly enforced? Tell that to all the people who've been abducted by them instead of focusing on a single example. Throughout Skyrim, you regularly encounter Thalmor squads escorting their captives to their prisons.

You do regularly encounter them, it is 4E 201 in the middle of the Civil War. There is more than one example.

"It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down."

Where the Thalmor can move about more freely, because all the soldiers and guards are busy fighting a war Ulfric started.

The Empire essentially lost a little less than half it's forces during the war, but they were still standing and ready to fight. Given that Hammerfell alone was able to defeat what was left of the Dominion's forces, he could've continued the war without risking total defeat.

It lost three entire Legions and the rest were under half strength. How were they still standing and ready to fight? Where is the source that shows they were able to continue?

The Legions could barely maintain order in the years after the Great War.

Hammerfell didn't truly defeat them. The Thalmor gave up and they signed a treaty. Still left their province ruined.

High Rock, perhaps. Skyrim? Surrender is anathema to the Nords.

Yet Ulfric surrendered to Tullius before Helgen. You come across many Nord prisoners of both Legion and Thalmor. Seems to me there is a fair bit of surrendering.

Since Skyrim didn't rebel, or try to leave the Empire when the White-Gold Concordat was signed... They accepted it.

Even among those who support the Empire, there are many who will freely admit that they don't agree with the things they've done. They simply don't believe it's worth destroying the Empire over. Which is predictable, since all the holds that stayed loyal during the civil war are economically dependent on the Empire to some degree.

There are those on the Stormcloak side who don't agree either. They believe Ulfric to be selfish and power hungry, only out for the throne...

Both sides have their issues.

We don't know what they were talking about during the previous Moot. In fact, given that there was a Moot at all we can guess something unusual was being discussed. Ordinarily, it only occurs when there is no direct heir to the Throne of High King or or if the previous king was challenged and lost. That wasn't the case for Torygg.

The Moot was a formality to recognize Torygg was High King. Ulfric spoke about independence, none of the other Jarls did. They are not mentioned to having said anything, only Ulfric Stormcloak. Which is why Torygg greatly respected him.

Or, it could be the fact that the Empire handed over most of Hammerfell's territory to the Dominion that made the difference. Also, we learn during the civil war that the Empire bought off the Jarls to get them to support the Concordat. Even if the popular sentiment was to continue the fight, the Nords wouldn't have rebelled against their own leaders at that point in time. It was only after nearly 3 decades of enduring the Thalmor's little inquisition while the Empire did nothing that the people finally said enough.

So Skyrim didn't care. They accepted the White-Gold Concordat, and for twenty six years there were no issues. The Empire didn't need to get the Jarls to support the White-Gold Concordat, they were told to accept it.

Chests of gold can be many things. They can make a Jarl richer, being a bribe. Or the Jarl can use it for his citizens, for families who lost loved ones in the war.

We can assume Jarls were bribed, we can also assume many things.

So, the Dominion abandoned their attempted conquest of Hammerfell for no reason?

Did I just say they did it for no reason? No.

You're arguing semantics again. They were forced to retreat.

They fought to a stand still. The Dominion ended up giving up, their goal was achieved. Sewing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the other provinces of the Empire.

My point is simple. If the people of Hammerfell, weakened and alone, were able to force the Dominion to back down

If the people of Hammerfell, fighting in their homeland, were able to fight to a stand still to devastate their southern province to make it completely worthless. Then signed a treaty, to which the Dominion simply walked out freely.

the Empire, which still had at least over half of it's forces, could have done the same had the war continued.

Over half? How do you work that out? Three Legions wiped out, the rest under half strength.

In fact, they didn't even need to do that much. All the Empire had to do was drag out the war until the Thalmor were ready to agree to an actual peace treaty, instead of the virtual surrender represented by the White-Gold Concordat.

While Cyrodiil burned, Skyrim without Markarth the source of their wealth, bandits and brigands taking advantage... There wouldn't be an Empire.

Firstly, look at everything that happened during peace time after the war. The Empire's military was so weakened, they could barely keep order.

So your strategy would be, keep the war going when you command a greatly weakened army. You have no idea of enemy strength presently, and barely have enough soldiers to properly defend Cyrodiil.

They were weakened, yes, but so was the Dominion.

The Aldmeri Dominion had a stronger army to begin with.

The Empire still had at least 15 functioning legions, though they were all at half-strength.

We have no idea if the Empire maintained 18 Legions, as mentioned prior to the war. The Empire was at Military weakness, and the highest Legion mentioned was the 10th.

So if we say they had 18 Legions.

18 take away 3, 15 divided by 2 = 7.5 Legions. They were actually under half strength, not even at half.

Now we'll go by the Great War, weakened military and the highest mentioned is 10.

10 take away 3, 7 divided by 2 = 3.5 Legions.

So they either had enough soldiers to make 7.5 full Legions or 3.5 full Legions.

They could have sent two to three legions to reinforce Hammerfell

Two to three full Legions? Or greatly weakened under half strength Legions that would make it probably 1.5 Legions into Hammerfell.

If you want to send full Legions, how do you know those aren't your entire Military?

while using the rest to fortify their borders to deter another invasion.

What about securing the province? You're leaving your innocent populations at the mercy of bandits, and various creatures. What about the Legionnaires you'd need to leave behind to secure roads, cities, towns etc.

The Dominion likely would've been forced to withdraw from Hammerfell much earlier, and the war would've came to an end on the Empire's terms.

Or they could've fought like they did during the Second Era. Border skirmishes, keep the Empire constantly defending while the provinces lose control without soldiers.

As for the lack of intel, it's pretty simple. Titus Mede II went into the Great War without knowing the full extent of the Dominion's military power against the advice of his generals. He faced the same choice following the Battle of the Red Ring. He could either fight not knowing the odds, or surrender. He chose to surrender.

The choice Titus Mede II made was simple. No one would have accepted the Thalmor's terms at the mere threat of war, but after a long and destructive war. Most of the Empire welcomed peace.

We don't know the extent of the infighting in Hammerfell during that time period. It could've been purely political, or there could've been violence involved. Point is, Hammerfell was weakened even before the war began.

It isn't mentioned Hammerfell was weakened, they just weren't prosperous due to Crown and Forebear infighting. The Empire itself was weak, they had an inferior Military compared to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Generals advised Titus II about their weakness.

You're assuming it was violent infighting. Those two factions haven't warred since the days of Tiber Septim.

So, it took decades to accomplish all of this, and they have so little to show for it. Hm.

Titus II is most likely unwilling. As mentioned to why he cancelled his visit to Skyrim, he didn't want to involve himself directly.

Ambushing Ulfric and a handful of his troops is hardly an amazing display of military might.

You said they couldn't quell the rebellion. They almost just did.

Never mind the fact that even if they had succeeded in executing Ulfric, he would have become a martyr and his cause would have continued.

Ulfric is the cause. None of his political supporters have the same charisma as him. His second in command will lead them? The man who would kill the Jarls who oppose him. That could just make a martyr of them and the cycle would continue.

Without Ulfric, the Stormcloaks are nothing.

1. And?

Shows there are Legions preparing.

2. I've never heard of this before. Can you provide a reference?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloak_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)

3. So they can provide escorts to nobles and trade shipments, but they don't have the men to spare to send Tullius reinforcements when the war goes south? They really need to get their priorities straight then.

Funny how reinforcements are just mentioned. So their priorities are fine, they're sending General Tullius forces. He's lost solid communication with Cyrodiil until he takes Riften. The Legionnaires mention they get few reinforcements, not zero.

4. And?

Means they have extra man power.

He's had 26 years to rebuild his army, and what has he done with it? Has he booted the Thalmor from the Empire? Has he made any effort to stand up to the Dominion or shown any backbone? Nope. Instead, you've got high-ranking Imperial officials like General Tullius tip-toeing around and attending Thalmor parties to avoid offending the Dominion and risking the peace.

The Stormcloak rebellion has been going on for years. Skirmishes between the Holds etc.

You want to know a secret? You don't go to war, when fighting a civil war.

That's not the behavior of an Empire preparing for war. It's the behavior of a weak government trying to appease an enemy to avoid conflict. Doesn't quite match up with the idea that Titus II was just buying time to recover and regroup, or that the Legion has recovered.

It is the behavior of an Empire that can't do much. They can't fight a war against the Dominion while they're ravaged by open rebellion. They can't dispatch several legions into Skyrim, because the Dominion are now lining up their borders.

It has become a stare down, and is flaming tensions. The Civil war is a distraction, before the main event between Empire and Dominion continue.

And it just so happened to be the same tract of land they'd asked for in the beginning. Hm.

Yeah, it was the part they occupied early in the war. Funny isn't it? The Aldmeri asked for land they could conquer if they went to war. Strange...

Got any evidence that the Thalmor didn't bother with arresting folks who worshiped Talos before Ulfric came along? Besides, the only thing Ulfric 'stirred up' was the open worship of Talos because he represented the freedom to do so.

I didn't say the Thalmor didn't arrest people. They arrested those who breached the treaty, but as Alvor mentions everyone still had their shrines to Talos. Wasn't until it was agitated by Ulfric that there was a crack down.

Ulfric stirred up many things. He constantly used the rally of the Talos ban, and he wasn't gaining much support. He would fight against the Holds, where skirmishes were mentioned even taking place outside Windhelm years ago.

And they are allowed to arrest anyone they can 'prove' to have worshiped Talos. Once Ondolemar has evidence to back up his accusations, the Nord gets arrested.

Yes, they need evidence. The Talos Ban is law, no one likes it much. But it was a sacrifice made to rebuild to fight another day. The Nord never gets arrested if you don't help the Thalmor.

So, his soldiers followed him for the fun of it, then?
They weren't angry about the Concordat, they were just content to be Ulfric's personal militia to feed his ego? They followed Ulfric because they believed in his ideals, just as the Stormcloaks would in years to come.

Some of them do. You hear them talking about why they joined "I'm a true Nord, simple as is"

Others don't want elves telling them what to do like Galmar. I'm not saying they're not angry about the White-Gold Concordat.

The Militia were the Stormcloaks. They took Markarth, and what they called the 'Markarth Incident'.

They followed Ulfric because he was their leader. Ulfric was loyal to the Empire at the time of Markarth, wasn't until the Markarth Incident his loyalties were shaken.

Any evidence?

"Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support, so a few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention." - Hadvar

Why exactly would Ulfric's duel with the High King cause large swaths of people to suddenly decide he had the right of things? No, people supported Ulfric from the beginning because they despised the Concordat. The death of Torygg simply emboldened his supporters into taking action.

It caused him political support, killing Torygg was a message to the Jarls. They didn't all support him from the beginning. Majority of his soldiers come from the Holds who support him.

If he had that support from the start, where were they when all the fighting was happening years ago? Ulfric didn't have the large army until after Torygg was dead.

You say he had all the support, but they did nothing for the years when there was fighting between Ulfric and the other Holds... until Torygg died they took action?

Their presence in Skyrim is heavy because it's a hotbed of Talos worship and open defiance of the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

So was Cyrodiil. They're in open defiance of the treaty, thus the Thalmor have an increased presence. Per their right to stamp out Talos worship. The thing is an excuse to conduct their large inquisition to send supporters to Ulfric's banners.

An Imperial victory will harm their long term goals in Skyrim because the Empire will no longer have to devote troops to quelling a rebellion.

It is more than that, it harms their overall position in Skyrim. They will go back to needing permission to arrest, and being watched by the Legion.

It's been a while since I've played Oblivion, but the last time I checked Uriel didn't even have a chance to defend himself. The assassin who killed him came out of nowhere and stabbed him in the back before he could even respond.

He knew the assassin would be there. It is why he handed you the Amulet of Kings.

He'd accepted his death, but like I've said previously, there is a difference between accepting your death at the hands of a superior enemy and just letting them kill you.

He had a weapon, and knew exactly where and when he would die. But still went towards it...

Titus Mede II, had no weapon. Is he going to throw down with you? Man looks about sixty or seventy. Thirty years ago, he'd probably have smacked you around.

Do you consider elderly people weak if they're like attacked by say a twenty year old? Didn't defend themselves.

And even after Mede dies, we hear nothing about his heirs or the identity of the next Emperor.

We didn't hear Uriel VII's heirs after the heirs themselves had died.

Surely if it was cut and dry, we'd have a name for the new Emperor.

Crowning an Emperor takes time, and since events in Skyrim don't advance. Have you considered that maybe word takes awhile to travel?

As for him having an aunt, how do you figure?

"My nephew, the Emperor. Too busy to attend the wedding of his beloved cousin. We won't stand for this slight, I assure you." - Alexia

All we know is that Vittoria Vici was his cousin. We don't know how distant the relationship was ( First Cousins? Second?), or if he had any living kin aside from her.

"An excellent question. Vittoria Vici is the first cousin to our dear Emperor, Titus Mede II." - Astrid

You were saying?

By Imperial politics, I mean 'Cyrodiil' politics. He's busy in Skyrim trying to put down a rebellion. I sincerely doubt he's concerned about who the Elder Council will put on Throne while he has a war to fight, unless the whole issue collapses into violence.

It makes no difference, he isn't phased about Titus Mede II dead. If there were no heirs, and the Mede Dynasty has just come crashing down... You'd think that would get some mention.

We know the nobility in Skyrim doesn't trust them. That doesn't mean they haven't been able to influence them or the nobles in Cyrodiil.

Yes, the nobles who suffered the worst from the Aldmeri Dominion. They'd trust the Thalmor.

The same Dark Brotherhood that has nearly been purged from the Empire aside from a single den of assassins in Skyrim? The same Dark Brotherhood that can be wiped out by a decent warrior? Simply because they were a bunch of boogeymen in the past doesn't mean he had to believe his death was inevitable. And even if he did, he still could've tried to defend himself and died with a bit of dignity.

"And, once more, I prove Commander Maro the fool. I told him you can't stop the Dark Brotherhood. Never could."

You can't wipe out the Dark Brotherhood. If you do the DB quest or destroy the DB, the sanctuary gets destroyed anyway. But in both events there are survivors. Plus the Night Mother, so there is still a way for the contract to be accepted.

Titus Mede II did die with dignity. You keep saying he could've tried to defend himself... This isn't the man of thirty years ago, where he personally led an attack to breach the Imperial City, personally capturing the Thalmor General.

"Oh, you can save your sinister bravado. I'll not go to my grave whimpering like an infant." - Titus Mede II

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Thirty years ago, he'd probably have smacked you around.

Made my day, thanks for that metaphor.

 

[Raijin]

As much I hate the Empire I couldn't get myself to kill Titus Mede II. He just stood there not doing a thing. How can I kill a defenseless old man? Seems cowardly. I wish you had the option to walk away thus failing your quest to assassinate the Emperor... In fact I was hoping that sparing Titus Mede II's life would activate a new quest... to track down and kill those who were responsible for this hit.

 

[DrunkenMage]

As much I hate the Empire I couldn't get myself to kill Titus Mede II. He just stood there not doing a thing. How can I kill a defenseless old man? Seems cowardly. I wish you had the option to walk away thus failing your quest to assassinate the Emperor... In fact I was hoping that sparing Titus Mede II's life would activate a new quest... to track down and kill those who were responsible for this hit.

I was quite impressed when I met him. I was expecting fear or him calling out for guards, not a friendly greeting.

Even when you threaten him;

"Oh, you can save your sinister bravado. I'll not go to my grave whimpering like an infant."


I wonder what he would of said to the Thalmor Ambassador who threatened him on 4E 171, back when he could wield a sword. Maybe he was like Titus Mede the first, now he was an Emperor.

'This wasn’t court, and the Emperor wasn’t dressed for it. He wore a plain Colovian soldier’s tunic of dark gray wool and leather breeks. His crown was a plain gold circlet. A broadsword in a battered scabbard hung at his side. Two soldiers stood yards away, but Colin suspected that if he tried anything, he would be dead at Mede’s hand before either of them could move.' - Lord of Souls

 

[Rimfaxe96]

As much I hate the Empire I couldn't get myself to kill Titus Mede II. He just stood there not doing a thing. How can I kill a defenseless old man? Seems cowardly. I wish you had the option to walk away thus failing your quest to assassinate the Emperor... In fact I was hoping that sparing Titus Mede II's life would activate a new quest... to track down and kill those who were responsible for this hit.

Quite ironic that he's classed as "Assassin". http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0001d4b9

 

[Dynnge]

Stormcloaks are a bunch of cry-baby, ignorant, arrogant, assholes. Go Imperials and put the Nords in their place.

 

[Jeremius]

Stormcloaks are a bunch of cry-baby, ignorant, arrogant, assholes. Go Imperials and put the Nords in their place.

It is funny that the Imperials, who are ethnocentric and think they are the center of the world, call the rebels, who they in essence created, arrogant.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Stormcloaks are a bunch of cry-baby, ignorant, arrogant, assholes. Go Imperials and put the Nords in their place.

No need to put them down. Their place is at our side after all.

It is funny that the Imperials, who are ethnocentric and think they are the center of the world, call the rebels, who they in essence created, arrogant.

We created them by not killing Ulfric way sooner. What's magic good for anyway if you can't even look into the future? Had some Psijic warned us about him we'd have left him to die and be done with it before this whole mess could be started.
Barely enforcing sh!t for decades and now this. Well done.

 

[Jeremius]

Stormcloaks are a bunch of cry-baby, ignorant, arrogant, assholes. Go Imperials and put the Nords in their place.

No need to put them down. Their place is at our side after all.

It is funny that the Imperials, who are ethnocentric and think they are the center of the world, call the rebels, who they in essence created, arrogant.

We created them by not killing Ulfric way sooner. What's magic good for anyway if you can't even look into the future? Had some Psijic warned us about him we'd have left him to die and be done with it before this whole mess could be started.
Barely enforcing sh!t for decades and now this. Well done.

The Empire created the Stormcloaks when they agreed to the same terms as before the Great War. It was only a matter of time for it to happen on this level.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Empire created the Stormcloaks when they agreed to the same terms as before the Great War. It was only a matter of time for it to happen on this level.

And still it prevents the Empire from focusing completely south. The intention behind it might - or might not - be good, but in the end it's a shot to the own foot.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Markarth created the rebels. When Ulfric was arrested by the Empire, the Nords who supported him called it 'The Markarth Incident' and the Stormcloaks were born.

 

[Jeremius]

Markarth created the rebels. When Ulfric was arrested by the Empire, the Nords who supported him called it 'The Markarth Incident' and the Stormcloaks were born.

And he would not have been arrested had the White-Gold Concordant was not signed, or was signed with Different Terms that was accepted. It all comes back to the White-Gold Concordant and corruption of the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And he would not have been arrested had the White-Gold Concordant was not signed, or was signed with Different Terms that was accepted. It all comes back to the White-Gold Concordant and corruption of the Empire.

A man may not have been arrested for murder, if there was no law against it. Does that mean the Government is at fault for the law, or the murderer?

The Talos ban is law. It may not be a favored law, or even the most enforced in areas. But when you shout about it loud enough, you're going to get attention. He would not have been arrested if he kept his mouth shut and abide by the treaty that thousands died for only a year past.

The Empire has corruption to be sure, but so do all large systems of government. Skyrim has corruption, Cyrodiil, Morrowind all the provinces, even without the Empire.

The White-Gold Concordat was signed, it saved the Empire to fight another day. The Empire accepted the terms of the treaty, High Rock and Skyrim. There were those in Skyrim who paid it no attention, they worshiped Talos in secret, no harm done onto them.

Ulfric is after the throne. Has he ever done something that doesn't advance his ambitions? He created his own personal army, he challenged the High King, he started a war to claim the throne of Skyrim.

Yet what have the Stormcloaks done for the people? They what, remove some Thalmor Justiciars that are arresting Talos worshipers? Thalmor don't need an open presence to cause issues. Ulfric fears they'll give him greater attention, he should. He has to rebuild his country, rebuild his army, he's surrounded by Jarls who either love him or have no faith in him. Gives them each an army and roll the dice to see how long it takes before another civil war breaks out.

They call the Empire oppressive, but the seat of their power is the most oppressive city in Skyrim. Many of their followers don't like other races, even guard dialogue the Stormcloaks use racial slurs.

"Stay out of trouble, Argonian." - Non Stormcloak guards
"Stay out of trouble, lizard." - Stormcloak guards

"What is it, Khajiit?" - Non Stormcloak guards
"What do you want... cat?" - Stormcloak guards

 

[Dynnge]

They call the Empire oppressive, but the seat of their power is the most oppressive city in Skyrim. Many of their followers don't like other races, even guard dialogue the Stormcloaks use racial slurs.

"Stay out of trouble, Argonian." - Non Stormcloak guards
"Stay out of trouble, lizard." - Stormcloak guards

"What is it, Khajiit?" - Non Stormcloak guards
"What do you want... cat?" - Stormcloak guards

Don't think the Stormcloaks are the only racists. The Imperial at the beginning will call the Argonian "lizard" during the execution. Not sure if that's just part of the game or actual discrimination or not.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Don't think the Stormcloaks are the only racists. The Imperial at the beginning will call the Argonian "lizard" during the execution. Not sure if that's just part of the game or actual discrimination or not.

Not saying racism is just Stormcloaks. That is just one Imperial Captain though, compared to all the Stormcloak guards. She also speaks negative to all races, even Imperials. She's a bitch all round, doesn't discriminate.

 

[Jeremius]

And he would not have been arrested had the White-Gold Concordant was not signed, or was signed with Different Terms that was accepted. It all comes back to the White-Gold Concordant and corruption of the Empire.

A man may not have been arrested for murder, if there was no law against it. Does that mean the Government is at fault for the law, or the murderer?

The Talos ban is law. It may not be a favored law, or even the most enforced in areas. But when you shout about it loud enough, you're going to get attention. He would not have been arrested if he kept his mouth shut and abide by the treaty that thousands died for only a year past.

The Empire has corruption to be sure, but so do all large systems of government. Skyrim has corruption, Cyrodiil, Morrowind all the provinces, even without the Empire.

The White-Gold Concordat was signed, it saved the Empire to fight another day. The Empire accepted the terms of the treaty, High Rock and Skyrim. There were those in Skyrim who paid it no attention, they worshiped Talos in secret, no harm done onto them.

Ulfric is after the throne. Has he ever done something that doesn't advance his ambitions? He created his own personal army, he challenged the High King, he started a war to claim the throne of Skyrim.

Yet what have the Stormcloaks done for the people? They what, remove some Thalmor Justiciars that are arresting Talos worshipers? Thalmor don't need an open presence to cause issues. Ulfric fears they'll give him greater attention, he should. He has to rebuild his country, rebuild his army, he's surrounded by Jarls who either love him or have no faith in him. Gives them each an army and roll the dice to see how long it takes before another civil war breaks out.

They call the Empire oppressive, but the seat of their power is the most oppressive city in Skyrim. Many of their followers don't like other races, even guard dialogue the Stormcloaks use racial slurs.

"Stay out of trouble, Argonian." - Non Stormcloak guards
"Stay out of trouble, lizard." - Stormcloak guards

"What is it, Khajiit?" - Non Stormcloak guards
"What do you want... cat?" - Stormcloak guards

The Empire set the law, the people of Skyrim suffer for it. Can't blame the rebels for what they are doing. I bet most of the rebels actually choose the rebellion for legitimate reasons, and not because they are willing to serve as Ulfric's ambition hounds.

What has the Empire done for Skyrim? Put them under a Thalmor law and strip them of resources used to fill the pockets of the elder council, as far as I know. that is not helpful.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Empire set the law, the people of Skyrim suffer for it. Can't blame the rebels for what they are doing. I bet most of the rebels actually choose the rebellion for legitimate reasons, and not because they are willing to serve as Ulfric's ambition hounds.

What has the Empire done for Skyrim? Put them under a Thalmor law and strip them of resources used to fill the pockets of the elder council, as far as I know. that is not helpful.

The Concordat set the law, the Empire had to accept it. The number of people suffering under this rule would be a minority like the author of "Flight from the Thalmor" who had to do it as obviously and publicly as possible - and still, that guy was singing at the top of his lungs about Talos and it took a full week to get to the arrest. Meanwhile a few hundred Nords were worshipping Talos in the land who didn't have to worry about it because they could keep quiet. Like a big national secret, and only those who couldn't keep their pride down a bit had to feel the consequences.

Now thanks to the Markarth Incident and the Thalmor's greater presence in Skyrim, things have changed regarding the Stormcloaks. With the Imperials being too busy looking out for rebel attacks instead of checking what the Justiciars are actually doing, the Stormcloaks have basically given the Thalmor much more influence. It benefits the Stormcloaks as well, take Ralof for example. His cousin had to be kidnapped for him to join the Stormcloaks, and the Stormcloaks got a good soldier for themselves. Too bad it harms the Empire, the only threat and obstacle the Dominion has.

The Empire offers possibilities regarding trade and security (remove the latter thanks to the Stormcloaks for now). Blacksmiths and miners are probably among the top earners now, just take Lod in Falkreath who's ordering more ion ore and even offers extra payment 'cause the Imperials need weapons. Too bad the Stormcloaks are around, otherwise for example food resources wouldn't have to be used for the Legion.