Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Stormcrown]

No, he doesn't see all Nords as savages and barbarians. Have you been ignoring my past replies?

It doesnt change the fact that he sees the nords as savages. Hell,He even said whole of tamriel would fall into mindless savagery without the empire. But especially skyrim.

The imperials NEED to rule all provinces or else they will just fall inte lawless savagery.

 

[Indri Master]

So "No, he doesn't see all Nords as savages and barbarians." doesn't change the fact that he sees Nords as savages? You're making no sense. He sees people like Ulfric as savages, but there's nothing Racial about it.

 

[Stormcrown]

So "No, he doesn't see all Nords as savages and barbarians." doesn't change the fact that he sees Nords as savages? You're making no sense. He sees people like Ulfric as savages, but there's nothing Racial about it.

What i meant was,The clearly sees the imperials as the superiour ones,As i said,They feel that they NEED to rule over other races provinces. And Especially skyrim will faill into lawless savagery, And why would especially skyrim fall into lawless savagery? Cant the nords rule their own province? Ahaa,Thats why! The nords are a lesser race.

And the empire has a history with racism,Far worse then the stormcloaks has. But then again,stormcloak hasnt existed for such a long time.

 

[Indri Master]

No... the Empire has been ruling Skyrim since the 2nd Era. Why change now? And the Empire doesn't have much of a history with Racism, they managed to unite all of Tamriel with admittedly favor towards Cyrodiil but not the specific race of the Imperials. The Stormcloaks are a Nord only cause, and dislike all Elves and Imperials, and yet you don't think they're more racist than the Empire?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Shame! Tullius had evidence acknowledging that the Thalmor was stirring up trouble, and forced the Imperials and the Stormcloaks to divert needed resources away over this silly war, and Tullius did NOTHING about it.

Tullius was giving in to what the Thalmor wanted, and now before he gets executed he wants to share this important information to the Stormcloaks. What a scumbag he was. A typical warmongering old fool.

If I was in Tullius shoes I don't think I could live with myself knowing what I know. I would've break my own oath to the Empire to try to stop this war. I would've told Ulfric what I know about the Thalmor therefor possibly ending this war, and potentially join forces to continue the Great war against the Thalmor.

Are you really that thick? You think Ulfric would join forces with the Empire? Ulfric started this war, the Empire didn't start it, there was a peaceful way to leave the Empire and Ulfric didn't want that. He wanted bloodshed, so tell me who is the warmongering old fool? The man who chooses war and death over peaceful leaving of the Empire?

Ulfric would never listen nor join forces with Tullius, everything in the game shows just that. Ulfric is being ruled out of hatred, he wouldn't put aside that hatred simply because of what Tullius tells him. Ulfric has hated the Empire since his father died while he was in prison. That hatred blinds him to all else, the man considered peace talks with the Empire to be something for the weak. So tell me, if he thought a truce with Tullius was weak because the world was ending, do you really believe he'll suddenly join forces with the Empire because Ulfric is being used by the Thalmor.

This entire argument of yours goes against everything shown in the game.

((Whodunit. Its a quest and the Nord there (After enough convincing) tells you why he dislikes the Redguard. His village was wtfroflpwnt by bandits and he asked a legion garrison in Skyrim to help. They did nothing.))

So... why did the Dunmer leave the Empire after the Oblivion? Then, if they freed their slaves some time after the Oblivion Crisis, then the Colovian didn't free anything. Why does the Colovian claim credit for something they didn't do?

It is a rhetorical statement, Khajiit wishes to express. He knows they are ran by snotty, blue-blooded politicians.

And as a response to the Stormcloak comment... Khajiit is fairly certain that his side is full of ignorant hairy racist types. Not murderous lap dogs that fill the legion's ranks.

And finally, concerning the Thalmor, if they know so much, why keep it secret? Why do the Thalmor not receive blame for the aforementioned massacres? Because the Thalmor are protected by the Colovian types. And Khajiit is fairly certain that any Colovian pardon or whatever is simply for those who can afford it or are important enough.

The people suffer. The Colovian says suffering more will make the people suffer less when only the elite may be saved. Khajiit has sunken himself further in his ground from which this debate he makes.

They didn't free the slaves after the Oblivion Crisis, it was before the Oblivion Crisis the slave trade was all but nearly destroyed. So the "Colovian" did have something to do with it, because it the man who did it was backed by the Empire. The Dunmer left the Empire after the Oblivion Crisis and the eruption of Red Mountain, the Empire no longer had any footing within Morrowind, the house that the Empire ruled from was all but destroyed and are considered enemies of the Dunmer.

You should really correct yourself when you keep using 'Colovian' since the Colovians aren't the richest in Cyrodiil, nor are they super corrupt. They are very intouch with their Nordic heritage, very religious and take pride in their work. They're the most hard working within Cyrodiil. You slander a group that has more reasons to hate the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks. You call them corrupt and liars, when it is false. Like many false claims you have made, this Khajiit needs less skooma.

You do realize that Legion soldiers also attack Thalmor? They will kill the Thalmor on sight if they try to attack you in front of them. Thalmor are not allowed to simply do what they want when the Empire is watching, the Legion will cut them down where they stand should they breach the treaty and harm an Imperial citizen.

Why do you think the Thalmor do the cloak and dagger things? I mean you Stormcloaks try to make out they can do whatever they want, they're protected by the Empire. If they have so much power and are allowed to do anything, why do they go to the trouble of doing things behind the Empire's back, in secret using undercover agents as to not draw attention from the Imperials.

That's what the dungeons are for. I remember clearly that their were interrogators inside Helgan's keep interrogating their Stormcloak prisoners. Why didn't the Imperials send me down there to be interrogated instead of sending me to the chopping block?

They don't need to interrogate you, you were captured with Ulfric Stormcloak. What information can you offer the Imperial Legion, they have what they want. They wanted Ulfric Stormcloak, interrogating you for the only thing of value such as the location of Ulfric would be useless.

You were thought to be a Stormcloak, it is why Lokir was pleading with the Stormcloaks to denounce your's and his involvement. Had they done that, then it would be the Empire's fault if they executed you. Law in Tamriel is very different, it is guilty until proven innocent. So get out of the "I'm innocent" because you're not. Even Ulfric Stormcloak calls you a criminal. Had Ralof said "These two aren't with us" The Imperials, bound by duty and respect of the law, would have to investigate. Had they sent you to the block after Ralof denounces you, then you can blame the Empire. However I would also be putting some blame on your buddies in blue, they were sure as hell willing to allow you to lose your head for their cause. Like it or not, they don't give a plops about you either. They were going to let you die for them.

Lokir: "Damn you Stormcloaks. Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy. If they hadn't been looking for you, I could've stolen that horse and be halfway to Hammerfell. You there. You and me - we shouldn't be here. It's these Stormcloaks the Empire wants."
Ralof: "We're all brothers and sisters in binds now, thief."

Lokir: "No! Wait! We're not rebels!"
Ralof: "Face your death with some courage, thief."
Lokir: "You've got to tell them! We weren't with you! This is a mistake!"

Now even Ulfric Stormcloak.

Even your great leader thinks you're a criminal. Looks like you're screwed both ways.

 

[Ozan]

Alright. Ozan will retract his statement if the Colovian may find a source to refer to exactly when the slave trade ended.

On a separate note, Khajiit noticed that one did not defend the idleness of the legion. For one who questions each statement by the letter, it seems he missed a hefty few. It has also occurred to Khajiit that we should ask the Thalmor what they think of Colovian rule. At least they do not need propaganda for their wars.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Alright. Ozan will retract his statement if the Colovian may find a source to refer to exactly when the slave trade ended.

On a separate note, Khajiit noticed that one did not defend the idleness of the legion. For one who questions each statement by the letter, it seems he missed a hefty few. It has also occurred to Khajiit that we should ask the Thalmor what they think of Colovian rule. At least they do not need propaganda for their wars.

In the game of Morrowind itself and it's expansion Tribunal. King Hlaalu Helseth, denounced the slave trade and House Redoran and Indoril went against him in a Civil War, he came on top and it generally destroyed the slave trade across Tamriel, save a few remote areas away from Mournhold. The slave trade remained, but it was greatly crippled. Though we know the slave trade didn't end because Elsweyr seems to buy and sell slaves. So Ozan can't throw stones about slavery when it was banned by the Empire and practiced in the Khajiit homeland. Biased and contradicting. Escaped slaves would also flee to Ebonheart, the capital of Imperial authority in Morrowind during the Third Era. The Argonian's also maintained an embassy there because they were protected by the Imperials.

I did not feel the need to defend the actions of the Septim Empire. What does Uriel Septim's and further, Martin Septim's Legionnaires have to do with Titus Mede II's Legionnaires?

Your issue seems to be two hundred years prior under a different Emperor. That is like me attacking a group because two hundred odd years ago there was this one incident. It isn't all that relevant, this isn't the same Empire as two hundred years prior. This isn't the same Empire that bartered with the Mane, the Empire isn't a constant thing, every Emperor or Empress is very different and the Empire changes all the time, authority goes up or it declines. Should we blame a group because two hundred years ago, under a different Empire and Emperor, one small garrison didn't do anything over a single Bandit raid. The town wasn't under siege, I did some digging, it was a single bandit raid. It doesn't defend the actions of what they did, but that is entirely up to the Garrison Commander, not the rest of the Legion. Legion follows orders from their superior officers, if one man decided not to do anything should we really be blaming thousands, hundreds of years later?

I was attacked by this one Khajiit bandit, for the next two hundred years all Khajiit must die? That is the logic you present me.

The Thalmor do not need propaganda? You're joking right, or do you believe their entire thing for racial purity and racial supremacy, the facts they saved Tamriel from the Oblivion Criris, they brought the moons back and the Khajiit love and revere the Thalmor... ah now I understand, being Khajiit the Thalmor are your masters, they like using Khajiit to be their little assassins. If you have issues with the Empire or Nordic Jarls, shouldn't you be complaining to the Thalmor Embassy, politically and diplomatically they are supposed to represent you, no?

 

[Kraad Vestru]

It doesnt change the fact that he sees the nords as savages. Hell,He even said whole of tamriel would fall into mindless savagery without the empire. But especially skyrim.

In Tullius's defense by the end of the Imperial side of the civil war he does grow to respect the Nords. But the attitude he has isn't just his own it's shared by a great number of people in the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It doesnt change the fact that he sees the nords as savages. Hell,He even said whole of tamriel would fall into mindless savagery without the empire. But especially skyrim.

The imperials NEED to rule all provinces or else they will just fall inte lawless savagery.

They would. During the Imperial Simulacrum when Imperial authority dropped, every single Province attacked each other, Skyrim alone invaded and destroyed the combined forces of High Rock and Hammerfell, stole many miles of land, caused problems that would last thirty years within Hammerfell alone, resulting in terrorism.

Cyrodiil could do barely anything about it, Imperial authority had dropped so low, that the Provinces had no reason to work together, they would attack, kill, slaughter one another.

Tamriel was united because the Imperials made it united, take away the Imperials and you're looking at a mixture of people who remember they hate each other with a passion.

What i meant was,The clearly sees the imperials as the superiour ones,As i said,They feel that they NEED to rule over other races provinces. And Especially skyrim will faill into lawless savagery, And why would especially skyrim fall into lawless savagery? Cant the nords rule their own province? Ahaa,Thats why! The nords are a lesser race.

And the empire has a history with racism,Far worse then the stormcloaks has. But then again,stormcloak hasnt existed for such a long time.

There have been many non Imperial Emperors. The last time Skyrim was independently ruled, doing exactly what Ulfric Stormcloak brought back into his new regime is the ability to challenge a Jarl for a title. Jarls killing each other happened once in the past, it caused a fifty year Civil War and destroyed everything Ysgramor and his bloodline had created.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days."

Nords do rule their own Province, they have Nordic rulers and they had a Nord King. There was a way to leave the Empire peacefully and the Empire has no other reason to hold onto Skyrim other than trade and passage to and from High Rock. Had King Torygg gone for independence peacefully, it would of left good relations with Cyrodiil. There wouldn't be the need to dispatch General Tullius to deal with the situation, because there would be none. High King Torygg was very interested in becoming independent, he also greatly respected and admired Ulfric Stormcloak. Had Ulfric simply asked Torygg to declare independence he might have. But, Ulfric would not be High King then, he would not have songs and stories named after him.

The Empire does not have a history of racism, there has been a Dark Elf Empress, Breton & Nordic Emperors, Argonian Elder Council members, a High Elf was the head of the Elder Council and he also ruled the Empire for several years after the Oblivion Crisis. There are Orc Nobles, all races within the Legion, Dark Elf Counts.

 

[Indri Master]

It's ironic that the Stormcloaks have deep hatred against the Empire, even though the god they are trying to worship is the founder of that Empire. Not making a point here, just pointing out the irony.

 

[Ozan]

In the game of Morrowind itself and it's expansion Tribunal. King Hlaalu Helseth, denounced the slave trade and House Redoran and Indoril went against him in a Civil War, he came on top and it generally destroyed the slave trade across Tamriel, save a few remote areas away from Mournhold. The slave trade remained, but it was greatly crippled. Though we know the slave trade didn't end because Elsweyr seems to buy and sell slaves. So Ozan can't throw stones about slavery when it was banned by the Empire and practiced in the Khajiit homeland. Biased and contradicting. Escaped slaves would also flee to Ebonheart, the capital of Imperial authority in Morrowind during the Third Era. The Argonian's also maintained an embassy there because they were protected by the Imperials.

I did not feel the need to defend the actions of the Septim Empire. What does Uriel Septim's and further, Martin Septim's Legionnaires have to do with Titus Mede II's Legionnaires?

Your issue seems to be two hundred years prior under a different Emperor. That is like me attacking a group because two hundred odd years ago there was this one incident. It isn't all that relevant, this isn't the same Empire as two hundred years prior. This isn't the same Empire that bartered with the Mane, the Empire isn't a constant thing, every Emperor or Empress is very different and the Empire changes all the time, authority goes up or it declines. Should we blame a group because two hundred years ago, under a different Empire and Emperor, one small garrison didn't do anything over a single Bandit raid. The town wasn't under siege, I did some digging, it was a single bandit raid. It doesn't defend the actions of what they did, but that is entirely up to the Garrison Commander, not the rest of the Legion. Legion follows orders from their superior officers, if one man decided not to do anything should we really be blaming thousands, hundreds of years later?

I was attacked by this one Khajiit bandit, for the next two hundred years all Khajiit must die? That is the logic you present me.

The Thalmor do not need propaganda? You're joking right, or do you believe their entire thing for racial purity and racial supremacy, the facts they saved Tamriel from the Oblivion Criris, they brought the moons back and the Khajiit love and revere the Thalmor... ah now I understand, being Khajiit the Thalmor are your masters, they like using Khajiit to be their little assassins. If you have issues with the Empire or Nordic Jarls, shouldn't you be complaining to the Thalmor Embassy, politically and diplomatically they are supposed to represent you, no?

Khajiit does not support the Thalmor. If he had, he would fight for the Colovian. However, One must forgive Khajiit. He thought that because One takes the time to write a hefty amount of lengthy words, he would defend what he thought is right. However...

How can one accept credit for another dynasty but not accept its faults? Khajiit has to like the Colovian because its been a few centuries? He has to accept your Emperor because he fought a war he did not intend to win and cast seeds for this rebellion?

How many lives did it save? How can we know for sure? Is strategy not taught to the monarch? He stationed legionaires on the borders who were surprised attack? Did they expect the Argonian?

You accuse Khajiit of such nonsense... but he does not endorse the futility of more recent years and can accept the faults around him. Can the Colovian say the same?

 

[Indri Master]

When the moons disappeared and came back the Thalmor claimed credit for it to cement the Khajiits' loyalty. Unless you're talking about yourself.

 

[Ozan]

When the moons disappeared and came back the Thalmor claimed credit for it to cement the Khajiits' loyalty. Unless you're talking about yourself.

Ozan refers to only himself. Perhaps other Khajiit think as Ozan does... but he will not speak as if his views represents an entire people. Another reason why Khajiit opposes the Colovian.

 

[Raijin]

Are you really that thick? You think Ulfric would join forces with the Empire? Ulfric started this war, the Empire didn't start it, there was a peaceful way to leave the Empire and Ulfric didn't want that. He wanted bloodshed, so tell me who is the warmongering old fool? The man who chooses war and death over peaceful leaving of the Empire?

Ulfric would never listen nor join forces with Tullius, everything in the game shows just that. Ulfric is being ruled out of hatred, he wouldn't put aside that hatred simply because of what Tullius tells him. Ulfric has hated the Empire since his father died while he was in prison. That hatred blinds him to all else, the man considered peace talks with the Empire to be something for the weak. So tell me, if he thought a truce with Tullius was weak because the world was ending, do you really believe he'll suddenly join forces with the Empire because Ulfric is being used by the Thalmor.


This entire argument of yours goes against everything shown in the game.

Tullius held back valuable information about the Thalmor regarding about the civil war, and didn't seem to want to share it with Ulfric up until he was about to get executed. If the tables had turned and Tullius actually shared this information with Ulfric prior an attempt to get back at the Thalmor (A true enemy of the Stormcloaks) I'm pretty sure Ulfric would do a 180. Ulfric did in fact started the war out of good intentions. It was the Empire that gave Ulfric and his followers enough fuel do organize a militia with the motivation to make Skyrim as an independent state. The Empire proven to Nords like Ulfric that their incapable of ruling their country and therefor it should be run strictly by old Nord traditions, not the Empire laws.

Lets put it this way. If the government were to ban the worship of Jesus, Mohammed, Moses and etc.. the consequences for doing this will be catastrophic. Their would be a bunch of Ulfric Stormcloaks gathering up supporters to rally up against the government that took their freedom away. Their would be many civil wars as a direct result of this decision. You can't simply ban someones religion without paying the ultimate price for it, and this is what the Empire is seeing now. More people are joining forces with the Stormcloaks as a result, and this was confirmed by Legate Rikke herself.

They don't need to interrogate you, you were captured with Ulfric Stormcloak. What information can you offer the Imperial Legion, they have what they want. They wanted Ulfric Stormcloak, interrogating you for the only thing of value such as the location of Ulfric would be useless.


You were thought to be a Stormcloak, it is why Lokir was pleading with the Stormcloaks to denounce your's and his involvement. Had they done that, then it would be the Empire's fault if they executed you. Law in Tamriel is very different, it is guilty until proven innocent. So get out of the "I'm innocent" because you're not. Even Ulfric Stormcloak calls you a criminal. Had Ralof said "These two aren't with us" The Imperials, bound by duty and respect of the law, would have to investigate. Had they sent you to the block after Ralof denounces you, then you can blame the Empire. However I would also be putting some blame on your buddies in blue, they were sure as hell willing to allow you to lose your head for their cause. Like it or not, they don't give a pl*** about you either. They were going to let you die for them.


Lokir: "Damn you Stormcloaks. Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy. If they hadn't been looking for you, I could've stolen that horse and be halfway to Hammerfell. You there. You and me - we shouldn't be here. It's these Stormcloaks the Empire wants."
Ralof: "We're all brothers and sisters in binds now, thief."


Lokir: "No! Wait! We're not rebels!"
Ralof: "Face your death with some courage, thief."
Lokir: "You've got to tell them! We weren't with you! This is a mistake!"


Now even Ulfric Stormcloak.

Even your great leader thinks you're a criminal. Looks like you're screwed both ways.

That's a load of crap and a poor excuse for not doing the right thing. They were interrogating actual Stormcloak soldiers in the Keep. By your logic they shouldn't be interrogated at all because their Stormcloaks. By your logic it's OK for the Imperial Legion to snatch up citizens from the roads, and then execute them because their only crime was being close to a nearby ambush. If this is your thinking then why did they bother interrogating these people in the first place? Why not line them up with the rest of the Stormcloaks that were captured, and execute them as well?Why both having an interrogation when they can just execute people instead?


Guilty until proven innocent... yet the Imperials didn't give you a time of the day to allow you to prove yourself innocent. It's off to the chopping block with you.

 

[Indri Master]

Guilty until proven innocent... yet the Imperials didn't give you a time of the day to allow you to prove yourself innocent. It's off to the chopping block with you.

How do you know? The Stormcloaks and presumably you were captured 2 days before the Helgen incident. More than enough time then your

time of the day to allow you to prove yourself innocent.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

All I have to say about the prisoner thing is that Bethesda likes to have you in jail, going to the chopping block, or something like it. I think Redguard is the only one where you don't start in a jail cell, prison ship, or off to the headsman. It makes the game more interesting to make you're own back story. I even made a character that was arrested for public intoxication, indecent exposure and disturbing local wildlife because he lost his clothes (hence the rags), lost an argument with a moose and punched it, right as the Imperials were walking by. Talk about a bad day.

As for the chop happy captain that wants you to die well just go with Ralof and kill her. It will make you feel better.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Khajiit does not support the Thalmor. If he had, he would fight for the Colovian. However, One must forgive Khajiit. He thought that because One takes the time to write a hefty amount of lengthy words, he would defend what he thought is right. However...

How can one accept credit for another dynasty but not accept its faults? Khajiit has to like the Colovian because its been a few centuries? He has to accept your Emperor because he fought a war he did not intend to win and cast seeds for this rebellion?

How many lives did it save? How can we know for sure? Is strategy not taught to the monarch? He stationed legionaires on the borders who were surprised attack? Did they expect the Argonian?

You accuse Khajiit of such nonsense... but he does not endorse the futility of more recent years and can accept the faults around him. Can the Colovian say the same?

Khajiit must support the Thalmor, because the Thalmor support the Stormcloaks, they provide the Stormcloaks with indirect aid, they try to keep Ulfric alive, they were in Helgan trying to find a way to stop the execution. If that is not supporting the Thalmor, tell me what is?

The Mede Dynasty is one of the best seen in Tamriel, the Septim Empire while it did have the great Talos, had some of the worst Emperors known to the Imperium. Titus Mede II fought a war because he had no choice. He was Emperor for two years before the Great War, he did what he could with what he had and he destroyed every single Aldmeri soldier within Cyrodiil, personally captured the Thalmor General, had him hanging alive from the White-Gold Tower for thirty three days.

This rebellion is nothing more than ego instead of freedom. With one hand you say you fight for the people, you value honor and traditions, with the other you betray your King, your Emperor and the families you have torn apart and oppressed with this new xenophobic regime. You think Khajiit will be tolerated in this new regime? You're not a Nord and that means you'll always be an outsider to the Stormcloaks. No matter what you do, you'll never be trusted.

You mean the Legion defenses along the Valenwood border? "He stationed them there" Where does it say Titus Mede II stationed Legionnaires? And they were surprised attacked, from Elsweyr, not Valenwood. Imperial defenses along Valenwood could of been built after Valenwood was lost in 4E 29. Since there is no time date to when those defenses were established to even claim to know is biased and grasping at straws. The Empire was hit by a surprise attack from Elsweyr, even if Mede sent Legionnaires to the Valenwood defenses, an attack from Elsweyr would be a surprise.

The Empire is not perfect and it has many flaws, but a united Empire stands a better chance than divided provinces who don't work together.

Tullius held back valuable information about the Thalmor regarding about the civil war, and didn't seem to want to share it with Ulfric up until he was about to get executed. If the tables had turned and Tullius actually shared this information with Ulfric prior an attempt to get back at the Thalmor (A true enemy of the Stormcloaks) I'm pretty sure Ulfric would do a 180. Ulfric did in fact started the war out of good intentions. It was the Empire that gave Ulfric and his followers enough fuel do organize a militia with the motivation to make Skyrim as an independent state. The Empire proven to Nords like Ulfric that their incapable of ruling their country and therefor it should be run strictly by old Nord traditions, not the Empire laws.

Lets put it this way. If the government were to ban the worship of Jesus, Mohammed, Moses and etc.. the consequences for doing this will be catastrophic. Their would be a bunch of Ulfric Stormcloaks gathering up supporters to rally up against the government that took their freedom away. Their would be many civil wars as a direct result of this decision. You can't simply ban someones religion without paying the ultimate price for it, and this is what the Empire is seeing now. More people are joining forces with the Stormcloaks as a result, and this was confirmed by Legate Rikke herself.





That's a load of crap and a poor excuse for not doing the right thing. They were interrogating actual Stormcloak soldiers in the Keep. By your logic they shouldn't be interrogated at all because their Stormcloaks. By your logic it's OK for the Imperial Legion to snatch up citizens from the roads, and then execute them because their only crime was being close to a nearby ambush. If this is your thinking then why did they bother interrogating these people in the first place? Why not line them up with the rest of the Stormcloaks that were captured, and execute them as well?Why both having an interrogation when they can just execute people instead?


Guilty until proven innocent... yet the Imperials didn't give you a time of the day to allow you to prove yourself innocent. It's off to the chopping block with you.

You're joking about Tullius withholding information from Ulfric? So it is the Empire's fault that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset? Get out. Ulfric would never listen to the Empire, he wouldn't swallow his stubborn pride. Ulfric started out with good intentions to be independent? Tell me, how does killing the man who was very keen on becoming independent with Ulfric, become good intentions? Ulfric wanted war and he wanted blood. Had he truly cared about being independent why not let Torygg do it? He was very interested and had Ulfric simply asked him it's strongly suggested he would have. But Ulfric wouldn't be High King, so don't give us the whole good intentions. If Ulfric had good intentions he wouldn't have started a bloody Civil War. The Empire doesn't want a war in Skyrim, they would go for peace. But Ulfric killed the High King and declared war on the Western Holds. The Empire had to get involved, less Skyrim do another War of Succession.

Let Skyrim be run strictly by traditions? Because Ulfric Stormcloak loves traditions... only when they suit him. Sometimes tradition isn't the best thing for a country that has progressed over a thousand years. You think going back to how things were during the First Era would be good, after three Era's of advancements, cultural exchange and even dependence on others. Skyrim depends on the Empire for food and resources.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne?

Ulfric: "...To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

Ulfric:"We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King. It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't start acting like it."

Interesting, except you forget one minor detail. High King Torygg would have more than likely gone independent had Ulfric simply asked him. Torygg would of needed Ulfric's support to do it, which is why Ulfric had to ask him. Torygg greatly respected and admired Ulfric Stormcloak.

They were interrogating people in there, but they weren't with you or Ulfric Stormcloak. So the only thing they could be getting out of them would be the location of Ulfric. What are you going to offer the Empire in the way of information, they already have what they want. You going to give them Ulfric again? "Psst, he's standing next to me."

You can't prove your innocence, that's just it. The only way your innocence could be in question, is had the Stormcloaks denounced you and Lokir's involvement in their cause. Did they say anything? No. They were going to let you die with them, for their cause. I don't blame the Empire for my attempted execution, because the law is guilty until proven innocent. There was no way to prove innocence, and the people who did know my innocence weren't saying anything.

Tell me, do you blame the Judge for handing your sentence for what they have before them, or do you blame a witness who withheld information proving your innocence.

 

[Jackanapes]

Interesting, except you forget one minor detail. High King Torygg would of more than likely gone independent had Ulfric simply asked him. Torygg would of needed Ulfric's support to do it, which is why Ulfric had to ask him. Torygg greatly respected and admired Ulfric Stormcloak.

Sybille Stentor says: "If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it."

"Might" is very different from "more than likely" and "very keen".

Stentor admits that Ulfric didn't know how much Torygg respected his calls for independence. If Ulfric didn't even know that, it's unlikely that Torygg was leaning heavily toward independence, or it would have been more widely known in the court.

Where else do you get the idea that Torygg "would of [sic] more than likely gone independent" or was "very keen on becoming independent with Ulfric"?

 

[Epic Keith]

Reinforcements have arrived!!!



Time to get things straight!

 

[Ozan]

Khajiit must support the Thalmor, because the Thalmor support the Stormcloaks, they provide the Stormcloaks with indirect aid, they try to keep Ulfric alive, they were in Helgan trying to find a way to stop the execution. If that is not supporting the Thalmor, tell me what is?

The Mede Dynasty is one of the best seen in Tamriel, the Septim Empire while it did have the great Talos, had some of the worst Emperors known to the Imperium. Titus Mede II fought a war because he had no choice. He was Emperor for two years before the Great War, he did what he could with what he had and he destroyed every single Aldmeri soldier within Cyrodiil, personally captured the Thalmor General, had him hanging alive from the White-Gold Tower for thirty three days.

This rebellion is nothing more than ego instead of freedom. With one hand you say you fight for the people, you value honor and traditions, with the other you betray your King, your Emperor and the families you have torn apart and oppressed with this new xenophobic regime. You think Khajiit will be tolerated in this new regime? You're not a Nord and that means you'll always be an outsider to the Stormcloaks. No matter what you do, you'll never be trusted.

You mean the Legion defenses along the Valenwood border? "He stationed them there" Where does it say Titus Mede II stationed Legionnaires? And they were surprised attacked, from Elsweyr, not Valenwood. Imperial defenses along Valenwood could of been built after Valenwood was lost in 4E 29. Since there is no time date to when those defenses were established to even claim to know is biased and grasping at straws. The Empire was hit by a surprise attack from Elsweyr, even if Mede sent Legionnaires to the Valenwood defenses, an attack from Elsweyr would be a surprise.

The Empire is not perfect and it has many flaws, but a united Empire stands a better chance than divided provinces who don't work together.



You're joking about Tullius withholding information from Ulfric? So it is the Empire's fault that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset? Get out. Ulfric would never listen to the Empire, he wouldn't swallow his stubborn pride. Ulfric started out with good intentions to be independent? Tell me, how does killing the man who was very keen on becoming independent with Ulfric, become good intentions? Ulfric wanted war and he wanted blood. Had he truly cared about being independent, why not let Torygg do it? He was very interested and had Ulfric simply asked him it's strongly suggested he would have. But Ulfric wouldn't be High King, so don't give us the whole good intentions. If Ulfric had good intentions he wouldn't of started a bloody Civil War. The Empire doesn't want a war in Skyrim, they would go for peace. But Ulfric killed the High King and declared war on the Western Holds. The Empire had to get involved, less Skyrim do another War of Succession.

Let Skyrim be run strictly by traditions? Because Ulfric Stormcloak loves traditions... only when they suit him. Sometimes tradition isn't the best thing for a country that has progressed over a thousand years. You think going back to how things were during the First Era would be good, after three Era's of advancements, cultural exchange and even dependence on others. Skyrim depends on the Empire for food and resources.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne?

Ulfric: "...To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

Ulfric:"We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King. It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't start acting like it."

Interesting, except you forget one minor detail. High King Torygg would of more than likely gone independent had Ulfric simply asked him. Torygg would of needed Ulfric's support to do it, which is why Ulfric had to ask him. Torygg greatly respected and admired Ulfric Stormcloak.

They were interrogating people in there, but they weren't with you or Ulfric Stormcloak. So the only thing they could be getting out of them would be the location of Ulfric. What are you going to offer the Empire in the way of information, they already have what they want. You going to give them Ulfric again? "Psst, he's standing next to me."

You can't prove your innocence, that's just it. The only way your innocence could be in question, is had the Stormcloaks denounced you and Lokir's involvement in their cause. Did they say anything? No. They were going to let you die with them, for their cause. I don't blame the Empire for my attempted execution, because the law is guilty until proven innocent. There was no way to prove innocence, and the people who did know my innocence weren't saying anything.

Tell me, do you blame the Judge for handing your sentence for what they have before them. Or do you blame a witness who withheld information proving your innocence.

((Ugh... dem blocks. :/))

Regardless, a surprise attack isn't a surprise when one expects an attack. The direction from which they come is a moot point. A master stroke of strategy... Perhaps lack of foresight is also a recurring theme for the Colovian, eh?