Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

The people will be freed at any cost. And the fight against oppression is eternal, Ozan knows.

Forced independence is another form of oppression. People will fight for what they believe in, on both sides. One cannot say they fight oppression, when they themselves force this new oppression onto others.

"Skyrim for the Nords" What of Imperials, Redguards, High Elves, Wood Elves, Argonians, Dark Elves, Khajiit, Orcs and Bretons?

Many people in this thread always try to bring America and England into this, so would that not be similar to something like "America for the Whites" or "England for the Whites" ?

What has the Empire brought to Tamriel? Racial equality, doesn't matter on your race in the Empire, you can become what you want. There have been Dark Elf Empress', Argonian Elder Council Members, a High Elf even controlled the Empire for many years after the Oblivion Crisis.

Stormcloaks claim to fight for independence, how do you fight for independence when there was another way, that is like someone is going to give you something but you steal it instead. The entire war is about Ulfric's ego, he wants songs and stories. He wants to become the High King, had Torygg gone independent peacefully, he wouldn't be High King and he wouldn't have stories of war and glory. Already the Civil war is doing what he wants, songs are being written, Age of Aggression/Oppression.

If the Stormcloak side is about fighting for the people of Skyrim, why don't you swear loyalty to the people of Skyrim, to serve and defend all the citizens of Skyrim? No, you swear an oath to one man.

"I do swear my blood and honor to the service of Ulfric Stormcloak..."
"...Jarl of Windhelm and true High King of Skyrim."
"As Talos is my witness, may this oath bind me to death and beyond..."
"...even to my lord as to my fellow brothers and sisters in arms."
"All hail the Stormcloaks, the true sons and daughters of Skyrim!"


The oath makes no mention to the people of Skyrim, why is that? I mean aren't the Stormcloaks supposed to be fighting for the people of Skyrim. Funny that you should have to swear an oath to a man who has broken two oaths of loyalty already. Seems to me, that you're creating a ruler who has soldiers loyal only to him, who answer only to him. They are in all the Holds of Skyrim, hovering over the Jarls, even Galmar gets placed in charge of keeping the Jarls in line, making sure they're following "Orders" Free from oppression... you've actually just created true oppression. The Jarls would no longer be as Nordic tradition dictates, largely independent. The Pact of Chieftains would be no more, we already know that Ulfric does not truly care about tradition and the other Jarls or the moot.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne?"

So it is Ulfric who is keeping the moot from meeting, and settling this in the Nordic way. I thought the Empire were oppressors and many in the thread call them invaders. Seems to me the only person disregarding Nordic tradition is Ulfric. Of course until it suits him...

Ulfric:"...To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

The Empire are hardly oppressing the people of Skyrim, the Stormcloaks claim the Empire are oppressors, yet look at Windhelm. Look at the capital of the Stormcloak rebellion and possibly the future capital of Skyrim in the event of Stormcloak victory. Then look to Solitude, the center of Imperial authority.

 

[Epic Keith]

 

[KingNLD]

Now i call the police.

 

[Stormcrown]

But..Skyrim actually does belongto the nords today Just as Cyrodiil belongs tothe imperials,Morrowindbelongs to the darkelves etc,No need to Call that racism,And i think its funny how people think imperials are super anti racists.

Imperialism=Racial equality? lol.

Stormcloaks goal isnt to remove every non nord of existense,neither to drive them out of skyrim.

And aboutthat picture above.. Heh,That picture is an edited version of the old political party sweden democratsThey used to be pretty racist,Now they are doing everything to get that racist stamp out,They even denyies that swedes as a people exists XD... buthey still suck anyway. Islamophobic sionists.

 

[KingNLD]

i'm getting out of here....

Epic Nord you know i don't mean it!

lol, i don't know that! i found it by skyrim pictures thanks by the way for say it.

 

[Epic Keith]

But..Skyrim actually does belongto the nords today Just as Cyrodiil belongs tothe imperials,Morrowindbelongs to the darkelves etc,No need to Call that racism,And i think its funny how people think imperials are super anti racists.

Imperialism=Racial equality? lol.

Stormcloaks goal isnt to remove every non nord of existense,neither to drive them out of skyrim.

And aboutthat picture above.. Heh,That picture is an edited version of the old political party sweden democratsThey used to be pretty racist,Now they are doing everything to get that racist stamp out,They even denyies that swedes as a people exists XD... buthey still suck anyway. Islamophobic sionists.

But really? Does Skyrim REALLY belong to the Nords? If the Falmer could speak they would rant angrily about what you said.

Even if Skyrim belongs to the Nords, they should treat others fair and square and have racial equality.

 

[Black Orchid]

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?


Doesn't matter. I'm an equal-opportunity assassin.

 

[DrunkenMage]

But..Skyrim actually does belongto the nords today Just as Cyrodiil belongs tothe imperials,Morrowindbelongs to the darkelves etc,No need to Call that racism,And i think its funny how people think imperials are super anti racists.

Imperialism=Racial equality? lol.

Stormcloaks goal isnt to remove every non nord of existense,neither to drive them out of skyrim.

Skyrim should not belong to one race only, nor does any province. They are all full of diverse cultures and races, while some may be more evident than others. Should Orcs who have lived in Skyrim since before the Nords came, be forced to leave their strongholds? The Nords of Windhelm seem to think so, since the stronghold is an "affront to my people" Cyrodiil doesn't belong to one race, they have an Emperor/Empress, Elder Council and many Counts. In Oblivion the head of the Elder Council was a High Elf, after the crisis he ruled the Empire until the Thalmor had him assassinated. There were Breton Emperors, Nordic Emperors and even a Dark Elf Empress. If Cyrodiil was only Imperial, surely they would not allow other races to rule them. There have been Dark Elf Counts, Argonian Elder Council members.

Imperialism in Tamriel, it isn't exactly Imperialism to an extreme. Imperial authority has spread racial equality, the Legions offer no sexist or racial requirements to join, neither does becoming Emperor or Empress, a member of the Elder Council or even a Count or Lord. Even the Emperors personal bodyguards who protect the lives of the Emperor and the royal family offer no racial requirements. These people protect the highest authority in the Empire, yet they are not required to be Imperial.

No one is saying Imperials are anti racists, people are saying Imperial Authority is. Imperial authority is what keeps the provinces working together, keeps the races working together, Windhelm is an example of no Imperial authority, the city is falling apart and there is racial segregation. When Imperial authority dropped in the Third Era, Skyrim invaded High Rock and Hammerfell, causes problems that would last thirty years after the war. Yet people assume Hammerfell will suddenly work with Skyrim under the Stormcloaks? There are two factions in Hammerfell, Forebears & Crowns. Forebears are Pro Empire, Crowns are not pro Empire and they hate the Empire also, now one would think that they could make a great ally for Skyrim, except they hate Nords more, since it was the Nords who invaded Crown cities.

Stormcloaks goal isn't to remove every Non-Nord out of Skyrim. It may not be a direct objective, but they're already doing it. This attitude towards other races, treating them badly and also the unwillingness to even barter with other races. They will not buy from another race because they're not Nord.

Also Skyrim already does basically belong to the 'Nords' who do you think you're fighting as Stormcloaks? Those Legionnaires are 95% Nords, all locally recruited from Skyrim. Those Jarls are also Nords, the High King was a Nord, the High King before him was a Nord. Skyrim in the Empire was a very special case since they didn't answer directly to the Emperor like other provinces, they answered to their High King, they maintained a moot. Is there at least one non-nord ruler in Skyrim? I mean if you believe Skyrim should belong to the Nords, then why are you removing Nordic rulers, killing Nord kinsmen, sacking neutral Nordic cities because they didn't want to get involved.

What about the Markarth Incident? Is slaughtering innocents because they didn't pick up a sword in your name a good trait in this future leader all Stormcloaks seem to love. You know, the Empire may have it's faults but Ulfric has only been doing things for thirty years, the Empire has been around for four era's. You would think there would be more issues against the Empire compared to Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

[Opinionated Asmodeus]

It's a pity we don't have the option to form a third faction in the civil war, with the Dragonborn leading it.

 

[Ozan]

Khajiit has learned something. Life is not a guarantee nor a promise. There is a chance one may be born dead, raised by poor parents, suffer a weak mind, or stand at the wrong spot at a most wrong moment. We are lucky to have gotten this far. No, life is not a guarantee. It is chance.

Does Ozan support The Stormcloak Jarl? Certainly not. But he does support the freedom of the people. The Colovian will claim they defend this idea... yet, they do not protect Khajiit caravans. They do not say to the Nord, "Your fear or Khajiiti peoples are misplaced. We will not tell the Nord to open their walls, but we will ask politely."

They do not do this. They do not care about the people. They have allowed bandits to lay siege to a town and sat idly in their fort as villagers plead for help. They, under a treaty they've signed, allow for the owning and purchase of Khajiit and Argonian by the disrespectful Dark Elf. Because of a treaty, a simple piece of paper... they allow the damning of the people. And with paper and ink, the Colovian steals Khajiiti land. The Mane succumbing to Colovian requests and demands. The Proud Khajiit who fight the Colovian are looked down upon, bearing insults and accepting such as name. Renrijra Krin. Much like the Stormcloak.

If the Colovian cared so much about the people... why do they not use paper to free... to protect... or even to defend? Instead, they allow the enemy into their borders. Defeated by ink.

Ozan knows many things... He knows the Stormcloak dislikes Khajiit. Yet... he chooses Stormcloak over Colovian. Why?

The Colovian has not pushed for change yet, not for allowing entry of Khajiit in the cities of the Nord yet. They never will. What reason would they have to encourage them to push for Khajiit rights? They haven't done it before the Stormcloak arose. Why now?

The Stormcloak allowed Khajiit to enlist. The Stormcloak may discourage Khajiit. They may mock. They may accuse. But they will also notice.

This... is chance. And every chance must be taken.

The people will outlast every king.

 

[KingNLD]

It's a pity we don't have the option to form a third faction in the civil war, with the Dragonborn leading it.

in fact it is logic that it there not is, that would be a good thing or a bad thing....
and much more work to work on for bethesda. than there is the Rebellion and the empire,
it is good that the options there not is. but if my leader dies in a new dlc
mabye it is a option then.

but otherwise a bad dovahkiin nahh i don't think! so to much freedom.

 

[KingNLD]

But really? Does Skyrim REALLY belong to the Nords? If the Falmer could speak they would rant angrily about what you said.

Even if Skyrim belongs to the Nords, they should treat others fair and square and have racial equality.

i most agree with that!

 

[High King of Skyrim]

But really? Does Skyrim REALLY belong to the Nords? If the Falmer could speak they would rant angrily about what you said.

Even if Skyrim belongs to the Nords, they should treat others fair and square and have racial equality.

Not this lame argument again! Believing that crap is like believing earth belongs to the dinosaurs, they're long gone and man has prospered....so to the Nords. I do agree with your second statement though.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Khajiit has learned something. Life is not a guarantee nor a promise. There is a chance one may be born dead, raised by poor parents, suffer a weak mind, or stand at the wrong spot at a most wrong moment. We are lucky to have gotten this far. No, life is not a guarantee. It is chance.

Does Ozan support The Stormcloak Jarl? Certainly not. But he does support the freedom of the people. The Colovian will claim they defend this idea... yet, they do not protect Khajiit caravans. They do not say to the Nord, "Your fear or Khajiiti peoples are misplaced. We will not tell the Nord to open their walls, but we will ask politely."

They do not do this. They do not care about the people. They have allowed bandits to lay siege to a town and sat idly in their fort as villagers plead for help. They, under a treaty they've signed, allow for the owning and purchase of Khajiit and Argonian by the disrespectful Dark Elf. Because of a treaty, a simple piece of paper... they allow the damning of the people. And with paper and ink, the Colovian steals Khajiiti land. The Mane succumbing to Colovian requests and demands. The Proud Khajiit who fight the Colovian are looked down upon, bearing insults and accepting such as name. Renrijra Krin. Much like the Stormcloak.

If the Colovian cared so much about the people... why do they not use paper to free... to protect... or even to defend? Instead, they allow the enemy into their borders. Defeated by ink.

Ozan knows many things... He knows the Stormcloak dislikes Khajiit. Yet... he chooses Stormcloak over Colovian. Why?

The Colovian has not pushed for change yet, not for allowing entry of Khajiit in the cities of the Nord yet. They never will. What reason would they have to encourage them to push for Khajiit rights? They haven't done it before the Stormcloak arose. Why now?

The Stormcloak allowed Khajiit to enlist. The Stormcloak may discourage Khajiit. They may mock. They may accuse. But they will also notice.

This... is chance. And every chance must be taken.

The people will outlast every king.

Nords don't fear Khajiit. They do not allow Khajiit caravans inside the cities, Khajiit themselves may enter cities. Just how the game is many Khajiit are a part of the Caravans. I know Khajiit by themselves can be allowed into the cities, because one tried to assassinate me on behalf of the Thalmor in Riften's market.

Make the Nord rulers allow Khajiit Caravans into their city? You call the Empire oppressors and then complain because they do not oppress Nords into allowing Khajiit Caravans into the city. It isn't the Legions duty to force the Nordic rulers to do what they want. Nords own the lands, Nords are allowed to say who is and isn't allowed onto their property. Should the Empire lock up a house owner because they told you to leave their house?

What town is exactly under siege by bandits? Should the Hold guards be dealing with that? The Legion is fighting a Civil War, resources and man power are very limited.

You're in the wrong group if you're looking for pity over the treaty with the Dunmer. That was signed by Tiber Septim himself, great and mighty Talos. You have problems with what Talos himself did? You're not going to get much pity from the Talos fanatic Stormcloaks. Go complain to the Nords that you hate Talos for what he signed, see how long your Stormcloaks remain friends with you.

Actually the veteran Legions are stationed along the Dominion's border, keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. If you're upset about a few Thalmor Agents, you wouldn't like what it would be if the Empire didn't care about Skyrim enough to keep the Dominion out of Empire lands.

As I have pointed above, Khajiit are allowed into cities, Khajiit caravans are not. Nords rule those lands, if you have problems with the fact that Skyrim belongs to the Nords, you're in the wrong faction. You think Stormcloaks will suddenly be open and kind to Khajiit wanting into their cities. It would be even worse had the Legions forced the Jarls to allow people into their cities. There would be even worse civil war, because the Nords as rulers are being oppressed.

Make up your mind, first the Empire is oppressing and now the problem is the Empire aren't oppressing.

 

[Epic Keith]

Not this lame argument again! Believing that crap is like believing earth belongs to the dinosaurs, they're long gone and man has prospered....so to the Nords. I do agree with your second statement though.

I like the girl in your sig

 

[Raijin]

Its probably going to end as both imperials and stormcloaks got wiped out by the thalmor,The thalmor wins.But i dont see that happen since bethesda always make humans win.

Or which is more likely to happen,Neither stormcloaks or the imperials wins,Neither Ulfric or tullius is dead. They became bros and join forces.

You mean like this?

 

[Opinionated Asmodeus]

in fact it is logic that it there not is, that would be a good thing or a bad thing....
and much more work to work on for bethesda. than there is the Rebellion and the empire,
it is good that the options there not is. but if my leader dies in a new dlc
mabye it is a option then.

but otherwise a bad dovahkiin nahh i don't think! so to much freedom.

I get the gist of what you are saying, and I know it would be very hard to script in a third faction, but think of it this way. With the Dragonborn leading the third faction, you would have the choice to make peace between both sides instead of wiping either side out, still align with either side and wipe the other out or wipe out both. Still, it all comes out to what has been scripted in the game, and we can't go against that.

Both factions are in the wrong, that much is clear to see. That doesn't stop me from joining the Stormcloaks with almost all of my characters. My Altmer, however, shall be Imperial, as promised.

 

[KingNLD]

I get the gist of what you are saying, and I know it would be very hard to script in a third faction, but think of it this way. With the Dragonborn leading the third faction, you would have the choice to make peace between both sides instead of wiping either side out, still align with either side and wipe the other out or wipe out both. Still, it all comes out to what has been scripted in the game, and we can't go against that.

Both factions are in the wrong, that much is clear to see. That doesn't stop me from joining the Stormcloaks with almost all of my characters. My Altmer, however, shall be Imperial, as promised.

lol i have a ps3 character stormcloak) xbox360 character stormcloak) pc stormcloak)
an imperial character i don't think so! besides, the game is boring at the time playing it 3 times.

 

[KingNLD]

You mean like this?

Real love there you do it for right?

 

[Opinionated Asmodeus]

lol i have a ps3 character stormcloak) xbox360 character stormcloak) pc stormcloak)
an imperial character i don't think so! besides, the game is boring at the time playing it 3 times.

That's what so great about having freedom of choice. You play how you want, and I'll play how I want. Besides, I never tire of playing Skyrim. I love going around Skyrim, and replaying quests on new characters. I don't even bother with different play styles for each one, because with the latest patch you can get all the perks, eventually. So I'm not worried about whether I really want to spend perk points in Mage skills, when I usually go with an Assassin/Warrior build throughout most of the game. I've taken to wielding Flames left-handed alongside my Daedric Sword, as well as keeping Fire Breath equipped.

It'll be a while before I truly start playing with Talia, so I won't be genociding Stormcloaks any time soon.