Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Empire was there for 2000 years. Septims are gone. They had 2000 years to be God-like in power and influence to not allow thalmor to even apear. But no. How much time did they have to prepare for great war before it broke out? 70 years. And dont give me they didnt know there is going to be war those things are noticed. Now they gave up God so emperor can sit on the throne. Next war they will give up culture. And the next war they will have to start giving up land in peace treaties. I would rather lose my life in battle than being taken by justiciars, I would rather lose my land fighting then seeing it lost in a peace treaty. That same question was asked to us, can you worship in secret for a while it will come to pass. NO! I cant! No empire is worth it when it gives up peoples beliefs, freedoms etc...

What if Iraq beat the **** out of you country, then demanded your religion to be forbiden and then you country accepts so the emperor can stay on the throne. And they say its OK it will pass, and then 25 years later it still hasnt passed, nor is it close to passing.

The Septim bloodline ended 200 years ago, the Empire itself has been around since the First Era. This is currently the Third Empire founded by Tiber Septim at the start of the Third Era. The Thalmor aren't open about these things, not even the Blades knew the Great War was coming and they were the only people who knew about the Thalmor threat. The Aldmeri Dominion never once let on their plans against the Empire, they were silent for 70 years until one day "Give us land, give us money, ban this god, disband this group." The Empire rejected and the Thalmor attacked.

You have some dislike for the Empire, I can understand that. How about this, how would you feel if a Rebel group popped up saying "You're with us or against us" In a battle if you didn't pick up a sword and help them they tortured you if you surrendered, your family, had everyone executed who was old enough to wield a sword and didn't.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

So much for your grand freedom? Never has the Empire since it's founding in 1E 243 has forced a sword into a childs hands and said "Fight or die" The first order from General Tullius is "Get the towns people to safety."

 

[Mookie]

The Septim bloodline ended 200 years ago, the Empire itself has been around since the First Era. This is currently the Third Empire founded by Tiber Septim at the start of the Third Era. The Thalmor aren't open about these things, not even the Blades knew the Great War was coming and they were the only people who knew about the Thalmor threat. The Aldmeri Dominion never once let on their plans against the Empire, they were silent for 70 years until once day "Give us land, give us money, ban this god, disband this group." The Empire rejected and the Thalmor attacked.

You have some dislike for the Empire, I can understand that. How about this, how would you feel if a Rebel group popped up saying "You're with us or against us" In a battle if you didn't pick up a sword and help them they tortured you if you surrendered, your family, had everyone executed who was old enough to wield a sword and didn't.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

So much for your grand freedom? Never has the Empire since it's founding in 1E 243 has forced a sword into a childs hands and said "Fight or die" The first order from General Tullius is "Get the towns people to safety."

Forsworn are basicaly stone age people and cruel as bandits or animals, with human sacrifices and all that. Is there any word about things they did when they took the city or does it just concentrate on what Ulfric has done? It is kinda hard to imagine forsworn entering markhart peacefully and cudling nords on their heads....

Go to abandoned prison and see the mercy of your empire "leave them to drown or kill them, dont let them go I dont want any legion deaths..." Solitude - execution, Helgen - execution, abandoned prison - execution, thalmor agents - executions...

What is Tulius going to say while geting away? Run b**ch run?! XD

 

[DrunkenMage]

Forsworn are basicaly stone age people and cruel as bandits or animals, with human sacrifices and all that. Is there any word about things they did when they took the city or does it just concentrate on what Ulfric has done? It is kinda hard to imagine forsworn entering markhart peacefully and cudling nords on their heads....

Go to abandoned prison and see the mercy of your empire "leave them to drown or kill them, dont let them go I dont want any legion deaths..." Solitude - execution, Helgen - execution, abandoned prison - execution, thalmor agents - executions...

What is Tulius going to say while geting away? Run b**ch run?! XD

Actually the Forsworn Kingdom was very peaceful and started a process with the Empire to be recognized as a legitimate independent kingdom. With the Empire busy fighting the Thalmor, Markarth is left undefended. The Reachmen take the opportunity to overthrow the Nord occupiers, retaking The Reach easily. The changeover is relatively peaceful, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners being put to death.

'That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.
True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.'

Ulfric killed Forsworn and Nord alike in what was known as the 'Markarth Incident' he was arrested by the Legion afterwards, it was the birth of the Stormcloak rebellion.

Mercy of the Empire? I would never condemn thousands against the actions of the few. Not every single person is perfect. If a Soldier commits a crime does that make every single soldier bad?

Well Tullius does look at you and say "Run you idiot!" when you stand next to him for a bit during the attack.

 

[Epic Keith]

Go to abandoned prison and see the mercy of your empire "leave them to drown or kill them, dont let them go I dont want any legion deaths..." Solitude - execution, Helgen - execution, abandoned prison - execution, thalmor agents - executions...

What is Tulius going to say while geting away? Run b**ch run?! XD

If a Jail in your country filled with rapist, drug dealers, serial killers etc was damaged by a calamity, you would want the prisoners dead because they are harmful to the people of the country. It's better to kill a bear then let it roam in the wild.

The Solitude Execution was because the gate keeper opened the gate to a war criminal. If someone let Osama run from Washington so that someone would definitely get executed

Helgen Execution was just a honest mistake. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It may be the only reason people hate the Empire, but remember Ulfric did worse things. And you lived to see another day so I don't see what the problem is

 

[Mookie]

Actually the Forsworn Kingdom was very peaceful and started a process with the Empire to be recognized as a legitimate independent kingdom. With the Empire busy fighting the Thalmor, Markarth is left undefended. The Reachmen take the opportunity to overthrow the Nord occupiers, retaking The Reach easily. The changeover is relatively peaceful, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners being put to death.

'That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.
True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.'

Ulfric killed Forsworn and Nord alike in what was known as the 'Markarth Incident' he was arrested by the Legion afterwards, it was the birth of the Stormcloak rebellion.

Mercy of the Empire? I would never condemn thousands against the actions of the few. Not every single person is perfect. If a Soldier commits a crime does that make every single soldier bad?

Well Tullius does look at you and say "Run you idiot!" when you stand next to him for a bit during the attack.

I highly doubt that, I think the book you are referencing is madmen of the reach or something?
That empire took away the rights of milions for a priviledge of one.

"Run you idiot" is there for gameplay reasons so that you know that you need to move to continue the story.

 

[Mookie]

If a Jail in your country filled with rapist, drug dealers, serial killers etc was damaged by a calamity, you would want the prisoners dead because they are harmful to the people of the country. It's better to kill a bear then let it roam in the wild.

The Solitude Execution was because the gate keeper opened the gate to a war criminal. If someone let Osama run from Washington so that someone would definitely get executed

Helgen Execution was just a honest mistake. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It may be the only reason people hate the Empire, but remember Ulfric did worse things. And you lived to see another day so I don't see what the problem is

Those men were there without trial, just like you. If they were inocent of not we are not to judge. But you cant execute prisoners without proper trial. What if you got imprisoned in Pakistan for brawling and you need to spend a night in prison, a storm comes and the guards kill you or leave you to die. Nice right?

He opened the gate because it is his job and because it was nordic culture to challenge. If he murdered him then he should be punished but he opened a gate to a challenger. Why isnt the court wizard executed, the steward, the high kings housecarls etc... they were all there when it was hapening and didnt stop Ulfric. Why? Because it was his right to challenge.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I highly doubt that, I think the book you are referencing is madmen of the reach or something?
That empire took away the rights of milions for a priviledge of one.

"Run you idiot" is there for gameplay reasons so that you know that you need to move to continue the story.

Book is called the Bear of Markarth, and it is canon so there for it is true even if you doubt it.

The Nords took away the rights of the people of the reach, "This was our land. We were here first. Then the Nords came and put chains on us. Forbid us from worshipping our gods." So don't be playing the victim of the Empire.

Those men were there without trial, just like you. If they were inocent of not we are not to judge. But you cant execute prisoners without proper trial. What if you got imprisoned in Pakistan for brawling and you need to spend a night in prison, a storm comes and the guards kill you or leave you to die. Nice right?

He opened the gate because it is his job and because it was nordic culture to challenge. If he murdered him then he should be punished but he opened a gate to a challenger. Why isnt the court wizard executed, the steward, the high kings housecarls etc... they were all there when it was hapening and didnt stop Ulfric. Why? Because it was his right to challenge.

You speak of trials and justice, those are Imperial things. Nords do not want those, Skyrim is one of the only provinces where courts of law and justice isn't handed out, violence is Nord culture. If you have a problem with the Nordic way then don't be blaming the Empire and talk of trials like they're a common thing within Skyrim. Talking heaps in a court of law doesn't sit well with Nords, they settle issues with an axe, this is seen in their politics where you send a man your axe instead of a letter.

 

[Mookie]

Book is called the Bear of Markarth, and it is canon so there for it is true even if you doubt it.

The Nords took away the rights of the people of the reach, "This was our land. We were here first. Then the Nords came and put chains on us. Forbid us from worshipping our gods." So don't be playing the victim of the Empire.



You speak of trials and justice, those are Imperial things. Nords do not want those, Skyrim is one of the only provinces where courts of law and justice isn't handed out, violence is Nord culture. If you have a problem with the Nordic way then don't be blaming the Empire and talk of trials like they're a common thing within Skyrim. Talking heaps in a court of law doesn't sit well with Nords, they settle issues with an axe, this is seen in their politics where you send a man your axe instead of a letter.

Still executing prisoners...

 

[DrunkenMage]

Still executing prisoners...

That is the punishment for what they're charged with and charged with accessory to...

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

And how law is in TES universe in every single province. "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

 

[Epic Keith]

Those men were there without trial, just like you. If they were inocent of not we are not to judge. But you cant execute prisoners without proper trial. What if you got imprisoned in Pakistan for brawling and you need to spend a night in prison, a storm comes and the guards kill you or leave you to die. Nice right?

He opened the gate because it is his job and because it was nordic culture to challenge. If he murdered him then he should be punished but he opened a gate to a challenger. Why isnt the court wizard executed, the steward, the high kings housecarls etc... they were all there when it was hapening and didnt stop Ulfric. Why? Because it was his right to challenge.

First rule of Pakistan

You don't go to jail no matter what you do.

The gate-opener was not present at the 'duel' I believe, so his argument is invalid.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Those men were there without trial, just like you. If they were inocent of not we are not to judge. But you cant execute prisoners without proper trial. What if you got imprisoned in Pakistan for brawling and you need to spend a night in prison, a storm comes and the guards kill you or leave you to die. Nice right?

He opened the gate because it is his job and because it was nordic culture to challenge. If he murdered him then he should be punished but he opened a gate to a challenger. Why isnt the court wizard executed, the steward, the high kings housecarls etc... they were all there when it was hapening and didnt stop Ulfric. Why? Because it was his right to challenge.

You seem to see this as Nords vs Imperials from Cyrodiil. But it's actually a Civil war between Nords. Half of Skyrim vs half of Skyrim. Cyrodiil is not the target and Ulfric actually fears pissing off Cyrodiil.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

 

[Mookie]

First rule of Pakistan

You don't go to jail no matter what you do.

The gate-opener was not present at the 'duel' I believe, so his argument is invalid.

When he let ulfric come in he didnt know what will hapen. He was a jarl visiting solitude. When he let him trough the gate what else could he do?
If he did something wrong wouldnt the guards/members of the court stop him? It is a long walk from blue palace to the city gates.

 

[Mookie]

You seem to see this as Nords vs Imperials from Cyrodiil. But it's actually a Civil war between Nords. Half of Skyrim vs half of Skyrim. Cyrodiil is not the target and Ulfric actually fears pissing off Cyrodiil.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

And if he said who cares if we kill the empire and who cares if we expand this war to cyrodil as well. Lets have a total war etc etc.. then you would call him a brute, bloodthirsty barbarian and what not.

 

[Epic Keith]

When he let ulfric come in he didnt know what will hapen. He was a jarl visiting solitude. When he let him trough the gate what else could he do?
If he did something wrong wouldnt the guards/members of the court stop him? It is a long walk from blue palace to the city gates.

I'm sure the guard would've tried to stop him. But Ulfric had just killed Torygg, THE HIGH KING!!! The people were traumatized by the death of their king.

 

[Mookie]

I'm sure the guard would've tried to stop him. But Ulfric had just killed Torygg, THE HIGH KING!!! The people were traumatized by the death of their king.

So its not the faul of the court, not the fault of the city guard, not anyones fault except the guy whos job is to open gates? He didnt know what ulfric was going to do, and comon sense says that if he did anything bad he would be stoped on the way back.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And if he said who cares if we kill the empire and who cares if we expand this war to cyrodil as well. Lets have a total war etc etc.. then you would call him a brute, bloodthirsty barbarian and what not.

He did kill the man who probably would of sided with him, Torygg greatly respected Ulfric for what Ulfric said during his moot about independence. Skyrim had the chance to leave the Empire 26 years ago without bloodshed, Ulfric could of found a peaceful solution with Torygg leaving the Empire but keeping trade and allied relations. He wanted a throne and he wanted blood.

"Stormcloaks... even the name of their rebellion stinks of Ulfric's vanity. He wants to be king. That's all this is about. One man's ambition."

 

[Mookie]

He did kill the man who probably would of sided with him, Torygg greatly respected Ulfric for what Ulfric said during his moot about independence. Skyrim had the chance to leave the Empire 26 years ago without bloodshed, Ulfric could of found a peaceful solution with Torygg leaving the Empire but keeping trade and allied relations. He wanted a throne and he wanted blood.

"Stormcloaks... even the name of their rebellion stinks of Ulfric's vanity. He wants to be king. That's all this is about. One man's ambition."

Stormcloaks was the name given by imperials to belittle the cause!
Then why didnt toryg do it?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Stormcloaks was the name given by imperials to belittle the cause!
Then why didnt toryg do it?

Because Ulfric never asked him, he came into Solitude and everyone assumed Ulfric was going to ask Torygg but he challenged him instead. Ulfric would always hint it to the point just shy of treason.

 

[Mookie]

This is useles discusion
I am always going to be a stormcloak (except for role playing reasons) and you will be an imperial

 

[DrunkenMage]

This is useles discusion
I am always going to be a stormcloak (except for role playing reasons) and you will be an imperial

I was once a complete Stormcloak supporter.

 

[Ru;indil]

Lol , I can't believe how long this going. I might even die trying to read it from the start.