Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Damn, DrunkenMage, on fire as usual!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Nice argument! Seriously, I have like, no defense for it. It seems a little inconsequential to say it, compared to your paragraph, and illogical in spite of the Stormcloaks/Nords shortcomings bit I still just prefer the Stormcloaks. I love their spirit and their energy to fight, how much heart they have. I love your argument but I'm a stubborn lass.

It seems I will have to look so much deeper into Skyrim and it's lore if I want to hold my own in the future though. Damn!

Nords are stubborn, it is actually an in-game trait, such as the description of a Nord in Morrowind.

The citizens of Skyrim are aggressive and fearless in war, industrious and enterprising in trade and exploration. Strong, stubborn, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost. Violence is an accepted and comfortable aspect of Nord culture.

Nords are very good at trade, sad to see them changed so much, especially how the Stormcloaks are. Their non buying from Non-Nords would limit their ability. But they are very war-like. Best way to describe Skyrim is the second Imperial authority starts to decline they're on the border with their barrels of mead and raiding parties, ready to steal some land.

They have a very rich culture based around warfare and honor.

Interesting fact though, The Imperial Legion sprang from the hardy stock of Colovia, the rugged highlanders with their Nordic blood.

Interesting little read also, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ordo_Legionis

 

[bosmernagini]

Nords are stubborn, it is actually an in-game trait, such as the description of a Nord in Morrowind.

The citizens of Skyrim are aggressive and fearless in war, industrious and enterprising in trade and exploration. Strong, stubborn, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost. Violence is an accepted and comfortable aspect of Nord culture.

Nords are very good at trade, sad to see them changed so much, especially how the Stormcloaks are. Their non buying from Non-Nords would limit their ability. But they are very war-like. Best way to describe Skyrim is the second Imperial authority starts to decline they're on the border with their barrels of mead and raiding parties, ready to steal some land.

They have a very rich culture based around warfare and honor. There wouldn't be an Empire without them.

It is true that all races have a place in Tamriel, and it's interesting to look at all the lore behind each culture. The way you describe it, it does seem sad that the Nords have gone downhill from their original description in terms of trade, but they are still outstanding in the other aspects typical to their race. I always play a bosmer, but I do admire the Nords in how spirited they are.

 

[Raijin]

Imperial authority brings peace and stability, the last time Imperial authority was low all the provinces were at war with each other, the Imperials are hardly evil tyrants. Windhelm is Skyrim away from Imperial authority, racial segregation and a city falling a part. Growing food in Skyrim is actually rather hard due to the climate, very few farms do well (exception being Rorikstead) The Nords used to raid other provinces for things, they can't do that in the more modern times of Tamriel as more lands are united. They depend on the Empire for many things, you can't feed the population with the grand speeches Ulfric makes.

I seem to recall after the civil war under the Stormcloak victory that The East Empire Company is still conducting business as usual in both Windhelm (The HQ of the Stormcloaks) and in Solitude. So under Ulfric Stormcloaks rulings He still allows the Empire to conduct business in his country. He still allows the import of food/armor,etc to be brought over from Cyordiil to Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It is true that all races have a place in Tamriel, and it's interesting to look at all the lore behind each culture. The way you describe it, it does seem sad that the Nords have gone downhill from their original description in terms of trade, but they are still outstanding in the other aspects typical to their race. I always play a bosmer, but I do admire the Nords in how spirited they are.

This should be an interesting read for you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord

Also this, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer Since you like the Wood elves

 

[bosmernagini]

This should be an interesting read for you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord

Also this, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer Since you like the Wood elves

Thanks! ^^

 

[DrunkenMage]

I seem to recall after the civil war under the Stormcloak victory that The East Empire Company is still conducting business as usual in both Windhelm (The HQ of the Stormcloaks) and in Solitude. So under Ulfric Stormcloaks rulings He still allows the Empire to conduct business in his country. He still allows the import of food/armor,etc to be brought over from Cyordiil to Skyrim.

They're actually closed down in Windhelm until the player gets them back on their feet, since they're being put out of business by a Nord family. But since the game doesn't go too far beyond, it doesn't show everything such as the business owners going out of business. But I doubt Ulfric would support a company of which the Emperor backs, and appoints workers. He doesn't like anything Imperial. "When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." East Empire Company is extremely Imperial influenced, the Cousin of the Emperor is a senior representative. Everything that is shown to us suggests Ulfric would hardly allow hand picked officials of the Emperor free reign in Skyrim. He would likely back the Shatter-Shield business.

 

[Raijin]

As far as the racial segregation in Windhelm we don't truly know the real reason behind it.. Theirs probably a logical explanation... just like theirs probably an explanation as of why theirs no Dunmers living in Solitude. Shall I just assume that the Jarl is racist because of it? That she doesn't allow Dunmers to enter the city?

 

[Raijin]

They're actually closed down in Windhelm until the player gets them back on their feet, since they're being put out of business by a Nord family. But since the game doesn't go too far beyond, it doesn't show everything such as the business owners going out of business. But I doubt Ulfric would support a company of which the Emperor backs, and appoints workers. He doesn't like anything Imperial. "When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." East Empire Company is extremely Imperial influenced, the Cousin of the Emperor is a senior representative. Everything that is shown to us suggests Ulfric would hardly allow hand picked officials of the Emperor free reign in Skyrim. He would likely back the Shatter-Shield business.

In my game Adelaisa Vendicci and Orthus Endario are still there, and pretty much active too so far in the story that has not happen yet. Ulfric hasn't expelled them and the East Empire company from his country. I don't think hes stupid enough to do such a thing like that. I firmly believe that when he said "When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." He indicates politics. chasing away soldiers and legates and removing Jarls that supports the empire, and replacing them with Jarls who do support him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

In my game Adelaisa Vendicci and Orthus Endario are still there, and pretty much active too so far in the story that has not happen yet. Ulfric hasn't expelled them and the East Empire company from his country. I don't think hes stupid enough to do such a thing like that. I firmly believe that when he said "When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." He indicates politics. chasing away soldiers and legates and removing Jarls that supports the empire, and replacing them with Jarls who do support him.

He's stupid enough to take his entire Army to the Aldmeri Dominion which the only way to get to besides invading Cyrodiil would be by ships, a journey of months, with supplies and reinforcements taking even longer to reach.

Put yourself in Ulfric's mind, he's ruled by anger and hatred against the Empire, especially after his father died while he was in Imperial prison. He isn't thinking logically or with reason, no doubt he would back the Nord family, not the East Empire Company which are a major Imperial influence.

He would see it this way.

Support the Nord family business that support me and live within my walls, or support a company that is backed by the Empire and hand picked officials of the Emperor himself.

 

[Raijin]

He's stupid enough to take his entire Army to the Aldmeri Dominion which the only way to get to besides invading Cyrodiil would be by ships, a journey of months, with supplies and reinforcements taking even longer to reach.

Put yourself in Ulfric's mind, he's ruled by anger and hatred against the Empire, especially after his father died while he was in Imperial prison. He isn't thinking logically or with reason, no doubt he would back the Nord family, not the East Empire Company which are a major Imperial influence.

He would see it this way.

Support the Nord family business that support me and live within my walls, or support a company that is backed by the Empire and hand picked officials of the Emperor himself.

Ulfric probably has something up his sleeves to use for his war against the Aldmeri Dominion. Unless if Bethesda releases the Thalmor DLC I'm not going to call it stupid until after I see his plans.

Ulfric does have a legit reason to hate the Empire. Perhaps he still had some fire in him during the Great war, as he was still fit to fight against the elves. Perhaps the Empire gave up too soon? Ulfric is a religious nut. Hes fighting to regain back his peoples freedom to openly worship Talos without being hunted down by the Thalmor due to the treaty that the Empire signed. If Ulfric is a true businessman he would not even attempt to do such a thing as to ban the East Empire from conducting business in Skyrim. Sorry but I cannot see this happening. So far in the game it hasn't happen so were just speculating.

 

[DrunkenMage]

As far as the racial segregation in Windhelm we don't truly know the real reason behind it.. Theirs probably a logical explanation... just like theirs probably an explanation as of why theirs no Dunmers living in Solitude. Shall I just assume that the Jarl is racist because of it? That she doesn't allow Dunmers to enter the city?

That could be due to the fact Windhelm is closer to Morrowind. Assuming Jarl Elisif is racist because there are no Dunmer is within your own right, but presented in the game is Racial segregation in Windhelm.

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

Many of Skyrim's Nords harbor a bitter resentment of all elvenkind, who they've battled with throughout history. The Great War may be over, but its horrors are still fresh in the minds of the conflict's survivors... - Loading Screen

Windhelm's Snow Quarter has been renamed the "Gray Quarter," in reference to the dark elves who have made that district their home. - Loading Screen

Reason could be, he just doesn't like elves, the same way the Silver-Blood fellow in Markarth Keep blames you if you're a Mer, No matter what Mer you are mind you. (Think he may blame Orcs also, may have to check that one)

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric probably has something up his sleeves to use for his war against the Aldmeri Dominion. Unless if Bethesda releases the Thalmor DLC I'm not going to call it stupid until after I see his plans.

Ulfric does have a legit reason to hate the Empire. Perhaps he still had some fire in him during the Great war, as he was still fit to fight against the elves. Perhaps the Empire gave up too soon? Ulfric is a religious nut. Hes fighting to regain back his peoples freedom to openly worship Talos without being hunted down by the Thalmor due to the treaty that the Empire signed. If Ulfric is a true businessman he would not even attempt to do such a thing as to ban the East Empire from conducting business in Skyrim. Sorry but I cannot see this happening. So far in the game it hasn't happen so were just speculating.

He isn't a true businessman, in fact he should be kept away from any duties that require him to use his brain, he was an idiot in Season Unending, to have his little victory of kicking out Elenwen costs him a Hold. Though of course you don't worry about that since all the evidence you bring from season unending is Stormcloak one sided, which I suppose that is what you believe valid, I guess I could use Imperial one sided as a valid argument but that wouldn't be fair.

 

[Mr1cammando]

Goddamnit Raijin.

EDIT: S'pose I should make this post a bit on topic...

I'd imagine any Stormcloak army being pretty depleted after a war with the Empire. The people who already believed with the Stormcloaks have likely joined already. I don't imagine they would find too many new recruits. I'm thinking the Thalmor would go into Skyrim and try to steal some land out from under the Stormcloaks, maybe ransom it back to the Empire or keep it to themselves.

 

[Raijin]

That could be due to the fact Windhelm is closer to Morrowind. Assuming Jarl Elisif is racist because there are no Dunmer is within your own right, but presented in the game is Racial segregation in Windhelm.

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. - Scourge of the Gray Quarter

Many of Skyrim's Nords harbor a bitter resentment of all elvenkind, who they've battled with throughout history. The Great War may be over, but its horrors are still fresh in the minds of the conflict's survivors... - Loading Screen

Windhelm's Snow Quarter has been renamed the "Gray Quarter," in reference to the dark elves who have made that district their home. - Loading Screen

Reason could be, he just doesn't like elves, the same way the Silver-Blood fellow in Markarth Keep blames you if you're a Mer, No matter what Mer you are mind you. (Think he may blame Orcs also, may have to check that one)

Can you not blame the Skyrim Nords for not liking elven-kind? I can reason it. It is elven who took away their rights to worship their gods. It is Elven that forced the Empire to give more power than they should have been granted after the Great War. Now their free to do whatever they want.

"They can barely tolerate our presence on earth! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!" - Heimskr

The Nords are insecure and fear the Elvenkind.

He isn't a true businessman, in fact he should be kept away from any duties that require him to use his brain, he was an idiot in Season Unending, to have his little victory of kicking out Elenwen costs him a Hold. Though of course you don't worry about that since all the evidence you bring from season unending is Stormcloak one sided, which I suppose that is what you believe valid, I guess I could use Imperial one sided as a valid argument but that wouldn't be fair.

We've discussed the Season Unending already. By removing Elenwen by the request of Ulfric you just saved the lives of 2 people... Esbern and Delphine. Screw the hold, A life is much more valuable. If you favored the Empire during the S.U you just just gave the Thalmor the information that they've been craving for all this time to successfully hunt down and to slaughter the 2 remanding members of the Blades. I recalled that Esbern disclosing his location at the end of the meeting. Elenwen would have all the information that she needs to send her Thalmor Justiciars to Sky temple haven to kill these 2 people.The Civil war is between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks The thalmor has no business being there in the first place.

Oh and Tullius starts complaining when the Dragonborn gives the reach to the Stormcloaks with an exchange of Riften. He blabs about how your not playing fair and all that other nonsense. If The Stormcloaks are willing to give Riften to the Empire then the Empire should give Markarth to the Stormcloaks. It's fair trade, but Tullius thinks otherwise.

 

[Mr1cammando]

Oh and Tullius starts complaining when the Dragonborn gives the reach to the Stormcloaks with an exchange of Riften. He blabs about how your not playing fair and all that other nonsense. If The Stormcloaks are willing to give Riften to the Empire then the Empire should give Markarth to the Stormcloaks. It's fair trade, but Tullius thinks otherwise.

I'd imagine that's because Markarth is a source of silver (Lots'o'moneys!) when Riften's primary exports are fish, honey and mead. Besides, when you take it back in the CW questline for the Empire, Tulliuis says it was a mistake to give the stormcloaks all that money.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Can you not blame the Skyrim Nords for not liking elven-kind? I can reason it. It is elven who took away their rights to worship their gods. It is Elven that forced the Empire to give more power than they should have been granted after the Great War. Now their free to do whatever they want.

"They can barely tolerate our presence on earth! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!" - Heimskr

The Nords are insecure and fear the Elvenkind.



We've discussed the Season Unending already. By removing Elenwen by the request of Ulfric you just saved the lives of 2 people... Esbern and Delphine. Screw the hold, A life is much more valuable. If you favored the Empire during the S.U you just just gave the Thalmor the information that they've been craving for all this time to successfully hunt down and to slaughter the 2 remanding members of the Blades. I recalled that Esbern disclosing his location at the end of the meeting. Elenwen would have all the information that she needs to send her Thalmor Justiciars to Sky temple haven to kill these 2 people.The Civil war is between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks The thalmor has no business being there in the first place.

Oh and Tullius starts complaining when the Dragonborn gives the reach to the Stormcloaks with an exchange of Riften. He blabs about how your not playing fair and all that other nonsense. If The Stormcloaks are willing to give Riften to the Empire then the Empire should give Markarth to the Stormcloaks. It's fair trade, but Tullius thinks otherwise.

Interesting, but when I did the Stormcloak side, the only person who took away homes, businesses and people's lives was me. I sacked two cities and put many Non-Nord merchants basically out of business.

The Thalmor are there because the last time Ulfric made demands, the Empire breached the Treaty, Sky Haven temple is a secret location known only to a single book which Esbern took the only copy. Is she going to read their minds or use the force to find her bloody direction? Is she going to open the command console and find them? Since you believe she can find them in a location that has been kept hidden for more than a thousand years, but somehow she'll find it because he goes "Sky Haven Temple" Like it is printed on a bloody large map saying "SECRET BLADES LOCATION....SHHH DO NOT TELL"

Tullius actually wants Riften... he is the one who thinks it is a fair trade. "The Rift would secure our communication with Cyrodiil and help threaten Ulfric's southern flank" - Tullius. He is a Military strategist, the Rift is what he wants, it gives him communication back with Cyrodiil. Riften is his idea, the only people against trading cities were Elisif and Balgruuf. The unfair trade you're talking about is Markarth for Dawnstar, since you kicked Elenwen out you're now Stormcloak by three points Empire zero, so the Empire doesn't like the terms.

He only blabs about you not being fair WHEN YOU'RE NOT BEING FAIR. Don't join any side of the Civil war, be fair in season unending instead of one sided and trying to use that as an argument against the Empire "I sided with Stormcloaks completely in season unending and the Imperials complained about it not being fair, which is why you should go against the Empire because they started arguments when everything was Stormcloak favoring" Of course Tullius is going to be pissed, you dragged him all the way from Solitude into peace talks and then weren't fair in them.

 

[The Laoch]

He isn't a true businessman, in fact he should be kept away from any duties that require him to use his brain, he was an idiot in Season Unending, to have his little victory of kicking out Elenwen costs him a Hold. Though of course you don't worry about that since all the evidence you bring from season unending is Stormcloak one sided, which I suppose that is what you believe valid, I guess I could use Imperial one sided as a valid argument but that wouldn't be fair.

How does kicking Elenwen cost him a hold? I've played season unending as pro imperial, pro stormcloak, and neutral and I have never since it cost him a hold. And if you are talking about giving up winterhold than you have to deny payment for supposed war crimes and give dawnstar not riften.

 

[DrunkenMage]

How does kicking Elenwen cost him a hold? I've played season unending as pro imperial, pro stormcloak, and neutral and I have never since it cost him a hold. And if you are talking about giving up winterhold than you have to deny payment for supposed war crimes and give dawnstar not riften.

It counts as Pro Stormcloak when you kick her out, to be neutral in Season Unending you want the point system to be 0 having it as positive is Imperials and negative is Stormcloaks. So you kick Elenwen out then give Markarth that becomes Negative 3 so you have to give the Imperials Riften and then a minor Hold. War crimes don't always happen, they only come up if one has occurred. So in effect the small victory against Elenwen costs a Hold.

 

[The Laoch]

It counts as Pro Stormcloak when you kick her out, to be neutral in Season Unending you want the point system to be 0 having it as positive is Imperials and negative is Stormcloaks. So you kick Elenwen out then give Markarth that becomes Negative 3 so you have to give the Imperials Riften and then a minor Hold. War crimes don't always happen, they only come up if one has occurred. So in effect the small victory against Elenwen costs a Hold.

Yes, but you would only kick out Elenwen when you are pro Stormcloaks, and if you are pro stormcloak you don't pay for war crimes or give any holds up after dawnstar. I just don't see anyone giving up a hold for Elenwen.