Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[pidgeoneyepete]

If the Empire wins, they have a severely weakened fighting force that will need to be stretched out over several provinces.
If the Stormcloaks win, and the Thalmor invade Skyrim, they're going up against a Stormcloak army highly experienced in guerrilla warfare, with far superior knowledge of the geography of Skyrim, and they're fighting for themselves, and not for some far off Emperor.
Finally, and most importantly, the Stormcloaks only have to defend Skyrim, not defeat the Thalmor. If the Thalmor did invade, the Stormcloaks hit and run tactics will simply make it in the best interests of the Thalmor to eventually withdraw. This exact scenario of a large, advanced invading army eventually being forced to withdraw through the tactics of the defenders has played out countless times through history.

Plus if the Thalmor were smart, they'd be focusing their attention on Cyrodiil, and not Skyrim, at that point.

As for what would happen over time in a Stormcloak victory, I'll leave that to better storytellers. Maybe the the whole dragon thing gets the Nords back to their hard-shouting roots. An army that has even a handful of people who know a shout or two would be pretty badass. Or maybe High Rock, now being cut of from Cyrodiil, makes an alliance with the Skyrim, who knows.

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that all the lands the Thalmor currently control, they got through overthrowing governments and deception, not through fighting for them.
The lands that were taken by their army eventually were given back. Not a very good track record. How can they now expect to conquer, and then hold onto, a land inhabited by trained rebels?

Sure the Empires force will be weakened, but then again so with the Stormcloaks, do you think they won't take casualties in the war against the Empire? And all the Empire had to do was keep the Thalmor at bay defending Cyrodiil and they still lost what make you think the Nords will be any more successful. Also hit and run tactics are harder to pull off when your enemy has magic that can detect when you get near, you can only ambush someone if they don't know you are there.
But what I think will be the major downfall of the nords is Ulfric himself. His treatment of non nords will be his undoing as noone wants to ally themselves with someone who doesn't respect them. Ulfric doesn't like anyone unless they are a Nord, the only reason he even allows a non Nord character to hang around is cause he is the dragonborn. My argonian is the ONLY argonian even allowed within the city walls of Windhelm same with my Khajiit.

 

[ReaperHemingway]

Sure the Empires force will be weakened, but then again so with the Stormcloaks, do you think they won't take casualties in the war against the Empire? And all the Empire had to do was keep the Thalmor at bay defending Cyrodiil and they still lost what make you think the Nords will be any more successful. Also hit and run tactics are harder to pull off when your enemy has magic that can detect when you get near, you can only ambush someone if they don't know you are there.

Stormcloaks are used to being vastly outnumbered, it's what they do.
Cyrodiil is much more wide open than Skyrim, making it much harder to defend, and guerrilla style fighting isn't what the Legion does. All Imperial forces were certainly not in Cyrodiil at the time either. Stormcloak tactics are perfectly suited to the geography of Skyrim.
Thalmor forces have been ambushed before, no reason why it wouldn't happen again and again. I've even done it myself in the game many times.

But what I think will be the major downfall of the nords is Ulfric himself. His treatment of non nords will be his undoing as noone wants to ally themselves with someone who doesn't respect them. Ulfric doesn't like anyone unless they are a Nord, the only reason he even allows a non Nord character to hang around is cause he is the dragonborn. My argonian is the ONLY argonian even allowed within the city walls of Windhelm same with my Khajiit.

I definitely hate Ulfrich, even if I'm a playing Nord character I don't like him. But he's not stupid, all this rhetoric about everything being for the Nords will be out the window as soon as they need help. He's still a politician, so it's not like you can expect him to stick to his principles.

 

[pidgeoneyepete]

If the Thalmor can successfully hunt down almost every single Blades member even after they went into hiding I am pretty sure they can hunt down stormcloaks hiding in the mountains. Don't forget that only a part of the Blades were soldiers, the rest were secret agents whose job was to blend in with thier surroundings yet somehow the Thalmor found them and brought them to near extinction.

 

[azali100]

If the Empire wins, they have a severely weakened fighting force that will need to be stretched out over several provinces.
If the Stormcloaks win, and the Thalmor invade Skyrim, they're going up against a Stormcloak army highly experienced in guerrilla warfare, with far superior knowledge of the geography of Skyrim, and they're fighting for themselves, and not for some far off Emperor.
Finally, and most importantly, the Stormcloaks only have to defend Skyrim, not defeat the Thalmor. If the Thalmor did invade, the Stormcloaks hit and run tactics will simply make it in the best interests of the Thalmor to eventually withdraw. This exact scenario of a large, advanced invading army eventually being forced to withdraw through the tactics of the defenders has played out countless times through history.

Plus if the Thalmor were smart, they'd be focusing their attention on Cyrodiil, and not Skyrim, at that point.

As for what would happen over time in a Stormcloak victory, I'll leave that to better storytellers. Maybe the the whole dragon thing gets the Nords back to their hard-shouting roots. An army that has even a handful of people who know a shout or two would be pretty badass. Or maybe High Rock, now being cut of from Cyrodiil, makes an alliance with the Skyrim, who knows.

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that all the lands the Thalmor currently control, they got through overthrowing governments and deception, not through fighting for them.
The lands that were taken by their army eventually were given back. Not a very good track record. How can they now expect to conquer, and then hold onto, a land inhabited by trained rebels?

The Empire would be weakened, but not severely weakened. Guerilla warfare does not win wars. It creates stalemates at best. The guerilla force usually loses more troops. Look at the Taliban, Al-Queida, VietCong, etc. The way guerillas win is by wearing out an enemy force, destroying their will to fight. A substantially motivated force will not succumb to war weariness. The Thalmor are driven by their hatred of man. They have no problems with using tactics like murder and terrorism. They have no problems murdering civilians. As far as humans go, any moral boundries go out the window. Even if the Stormcloaks could defeat the Empire, their chances of beating the Thalmor are way lower.

 

[Jeremius]

The Empire would be weakened, but not severely weakened. Guerilla warfare does not win wars. It creates stalemates at best. The guerilla force usually loses more troops. Look at the Taliban, Al-Queida, VietCong, etc. The way guerillas win is by wearing out an enemy force, destroying their will to fight. A substantially motivated force will not succumb to war weariness. The Thalmor are driven by their hatred of man. They have no problems with using tactics like murder and terrorism. They have no problems murdering civilians. As far as humans go, any moral boundries go out the window. Even if the Stormcloaks could defeat the Empire, their chances of beating the Thalmor are way lower.

I bet the Redguards did some Guerilla warfare and used their numbers to compliment. Numbers alone won't win either.

 

[sticky runes]

while this topic is refreshed, does anybody want to help me choose a side? I'm on my third character now (my first was a stormcloak, second an imperial) but i'm not sure which side to take with this one. I thought Imperial would make more sense, since I'm of the thieves' guild, and our girl Maven is in good with the Imperials, but since joining the Dark Brotherhood, I've gone on to kill a ton of higher ups from the Empire. So... any suggestions?

 

[Jeremius]

while this topic is refreshed, does anybody want to help me choose a side? I'm on my third character now (my first was a stormcloak, second an imperial) but i'm not sure which side to take with this one. I thought Imperial would make more sense, since I'm of the thieves' guild, and our girl Maven is in good with the Imperials, but since joining the Dark Brotherhood, I've gone on to kill a ton of higher ups from the Empire. So... any suggestions?

do not do either with this character. Both sides are EVIL!

 

[azali100]

I bet the Redguards did some Guerilla warfare and used their numbers to compliment. Numbers alone won't win either.

A Redguard (best warriors in Tamriel) army with imperial deserters vs what was left of the Thalmor after a long and bloody war is different than a fully recovered Thalmor army vs Stormcloaks

 

[pidgeoneyepete]

Let the stormcloaks hide in the mountains, meanwhile their wives and children will be murdered as the thalmor burn every town village and farm they come across while searching for them.

 

[Jeremius]

A Redguard (best warriors in Tamriel) army with imperial deserters vs what was left of the Thalmor after a long and bloody war is different than a fully recovered Thalmor army vs Stormcloaks

Does not matter the war is Evil and should not be in the game to begin with.

IT is the only "good Choice" to focus on the big threats then deal with the little one you CAN be bothered with. the war is not my problem, so my paladinesque guy is not joining it at all.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Yeah, we can't forget that the Stormcloaks are not all Nords in Skyrim. It appears to be fairly evenly split 50/50 between Legion and Stormcloak support. So indeed there is something to be said for the numbers aspect of the warfare, and the eventual showdown with the Thalmor. If Ulfric were to win, just because that happened would not mean that all Legionnaire Nords/Imperial sympathizers would rush to fight on his behalf. There will be continued resistance, as evidenced by the aftermath of the Civil War quests themselves. Ondolemar said it best when he spoke of the present situation being the calm between storms. It's definitely going to happen again, the question is only a matter of when.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

I bet the Redguards did some Guerilla warfare and used their numbers to compliment. Numbers alone won't win either.

And the Redguards aren't likely able to even put up a resistance in a second war.


The thing is, Guerrilla Warfare allows for spreading war fatigue when defending, but crumbles against a full blown assault from the enemy. The Dominion has all the time in the world compared to the Stormcloaks. If the elves took Cyrodiil it wouldn't take much to push into Skyrim. An attack from the East through Morrowind would also be devastating to a guerrilla force like the Stormcloaks. If the Dominion captured Riften or Falkreath they could then expand out and take over Skyrim forcing the Nords into the caves and mountains within a few years with little oppisition so long as they maintained large collective forces, which would reduce the effectiveness of the guerrilla tactics which rely on hit and run tactics against supply trains to indirectly affect the main fighting force. If the Dominion moved as an army the Stormcloaks would be forced to fight in the open and would be harmed from their smaller numbers. Now they would fight until the last man that's for sure, but they would be hard pressed to win.

 

[Jeremius]

And the Redguards are likely able to even put up a resistance in a second war.


The thing is, Guerrilla Warfare allows for spreading war fatigue when defending, but crumbles against a full blown assault from the enemy. The Dominion has all the time in the world compared to the Stormcloaks. If the elves took Cyrodiil it wouldn't take much to push into Skyrim. An attack from the East through Morrowind would also be devastating to a guerrilla force like the Stormcloaks. If the Dominion captured Riften or Falkreath they could then expand out and take over Skyrim forcing the Nords into the caves and mountains within a few years with little oppisition so long as they maintained large collective forces, which would reduce the effectiveness of the guerrilla tactics which rely on hit and run tactics against supply trains to indirectly affect the main fighting force. If the Dominion moved as an army the Stormcloaks would be forced to fight in the open and would be harmed from their smaller numbers. Now they would fight until the last man that's for sure, but they would be hard pressed to win.

Now I say, let both sides kill each other. WHO CARES ABOUT THIS STUPID WAR? not me, that is for sure.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Now I say, let both sides kill each other. WHO CARES ABOUT THIS STUPID WAR? not me, that is for sure.

Why do you even bother with this thread again? Like really it's rather pointless. This isn't really the kind of discussion for you I find. Don't get me wrong I like you, think you're a bloody idiot, but as a person I don't mind you. Still my advice is find a discussion more fitting for you.

 

[pidgeoneyepete]

Why do you even bother with this thread again? Like really it's rather pointless. This isn't really the kind of discussion for you I find. Don't get me wrong I like you, think you're a bloody idiot, but as a person I don't mind you. Still my advice is find a discussion more fitting for you.

Because He/She/It is hoping we will give them attention, just like all those people bieber fans on you tube that have to go click on every music video by another artist and proclaim how much better bieber is. Seriously I went onto a NoFX video today and there was someone talking about how much better bieber is than NoFX and they aren't even in the same genre.

 

[Jeremius]

Why do you even bother with this thread again? Like really it's rather pointless. This isn't really the kind of discussion for you I find. Don't get me wrong I like you, think you're a bloody idiot, but as a person I don't mind you. Still my advice is find a discussion more fitting for you.

I can still favor a side, I just think the war is not my problem. Is it THAT hard to understand the term favoring but not participating?

No one will listen until I provide Evidence. So, here is my evidence:

1. The Empire-The White-Gold Concordant causes the death of their talos worshiping Citizens. This is wrong and puts the empire in a bad light for me.
2. The stormcloaks-they are jerks who think they are the rightful rulers of Skyrim because their ancestors took it from the elves. This is wrong to me.

All in all, the empire is Lazy, but with good intentions, even though their intentions get people killed. The stormcloaks are evil because they want Skyrim to themselves. War=pointless.

 

[Failed Reaper]

Both sides have good intentions. Both sides are fighting for something they believe in.

I argue this whole Stormcloaks vs Empire debate with myself far too much lol...I end up seeing good on both sides as well as not so good.

 

[Hargood]

I actually have a Breton character who just joined the Stormcloaks. Even though he is a non-Nord who uses magic, so he is doubly hated by the Nords, the Stormcloaks were the only side that made sense for this character.

The reasoning: This character is very smart and is thinking long-term, and everyone seems to agree that all out war with the Thalmor is inevitable. The Empire is already far from it's former glory, even a victory over the Stormcloaks is going to decimate the Legion's numbers.
At this point, the Thalmor would be complete idiots not to invade the Empire. Think about it, what are the Thalmor going to do, wait patiently while the Empire recovers from the civil war, and then attack? The Empire would be in no shape to fight at that point, and that's the end of the Empire.

Also, an independent Skyrim, combined with the already independent Hammerfell, means that High Rock is now cut off from Cyrodiil, so it's only a matter of time before my character's homeland separates as well. With Nords to the east, Redguards to the south, High Rock couldn't be safer from the Thalmor.

The only real way the Empire could hope to survive is not an option in the game: Withdraw from the White-Gold Concordat immediately.
The ranks of both the Legion and the Stormcloaks are growing, and they'll keep growing until the Battle of Whiterun when the war truly begins and both sides start taking heavy losses.
So if the empire wanted to survive, they'd give the Thalmor the boot, make peace with Ulfrich, and most importantly, absorb the Stormcloak army into the Legion. At this point the Legion will be at it's strongest point in a long time, and there is no better opportunity to launch an attack on the Thalmor.

You gotta remember though... The Empire would have dropped the White-Gold Concordat eventually. They would have done it with a Strong Skryim by it's side to fight the Dominion..

..But then some Upstart decided to create civil war and "Shout to pieces" the High King.

THAT is what brought attention to Skyrim, THAT is what brought the Thalmor in to inforce their intrests, ...NOT The Empire.

Time could have been "Bidded" but Ulfric wanted his little crown...NOT Peace

 

[pidgeoneyepete]

What really makes me hate the stormcloaks is how ulfric acts like such a child at the table for the peace treaty.

 

[theoperation]

What really makes me hate the stormcloaks is how ulfric acts like such a child at the table for the peace treaty.

Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor and tortured by Elenwen herself, so it's understandable why he acts the way he does. And if you ask me, both Ulfric & Tulius act a little bit like children. They don't seem to give a crap about the dragon threat, just about themselves.