I Officially Hate Illusion

[NachyoChez]

So, when I first started stalking these forums, I saw this read and immediately three up my 'rock fist'. I hated illusion so much, in fact, that I refused to even use muffle or invisibility on my stealth archer. I mean really, aside from helping me find the right side of the mountain, or buff my already astounding sneak, what use was it?

Yet, a friend of mine protested. He claimed it was a great secondary skill, with the crowd control skills making his job as an assassin so much easier. We got to talking about it being, and I quote, 'fun'. We even spoke about a certain Dark Brotherhood quest that'd be hilarious with amazing illusion. Eventually, it wore me down enough to consider it 'plausible'.

Three days ago, the inconceivable happened. I grew bored with my werewolf. It turns out, ragdolling every enemy and steamrolling content wasn't as longstanding a plan as I'd hoped. I'll likely go back to it, but I needed something... different. Something that didn't break down just because vampires are magically without hearts to consume. So, I decided to something quite insane. I rolled an illusionist.

Now, when I say 'Illusionist' I do not mean pacifist. I mean a soul who is so twisted, she doesn't consider her victims worthy of sullying her hands. That means no weapons whatsoever. No bows, no daggers, no giant maces. Not even destruction magic. She considers most people as beneath her concern; why learn such powerful magics to burn ants? I also decided that a soul this black would find difficulty with friends, so followers where a no go. My only offense would be from the powers of Oblivion itself; Atronachs and Undead.

Working with muffle profusely, I was able to QUICKLY level Illusion to 100 (because it was easy and because I needed SOMETHING to deal with dungeons!) and pick up the spells I wanted most. (Editor's Note: Most adept and expert spells are stronger than the master because of Dual-Casting; please keep that in mind when having issues with levels). That was day 1, not even level 20 yet. So, I decided to use my talents for mayhem and joined the Dark Brotherhood.

For those who have not yet done the Brotherhood, please skip to the next bold line. Heavy spoilers.
I admit, it was fun having Gertrud the Kind killed by her own assistant. Especially when I later received a letter from that same murderer because she was now in charge of the orphanage.
I then enjoyed watching the Shatter-shield clan slaughter Nilsine, never knowing what she so suddenly turned on them.
Later, on her wedding day, the Emperor's own cousin was stabbed in front of all her guests, while giving a speech... by her new husband.
Oh, but the most glorious moment was having Gaius Maro attack the Stormcloaks in their sleep, only to be slain at their hand.
No one even knew I was present (despite what those idiot guards say). I turned friends and themselves, and scarred lovers for life- all for amusement.
Okay, now for my 'final impressions, spoiler-less!

I'm not going to say those who don't like illusion lack imagination; I absolutely agree that their should be a few spells added that just have 'cool' features (like fake twins, or invisible doors). But I cannot, in good conscience, claim that I have not had stupid amounts of fun turning all of my enemies against one another. Could I have just snuck by them, unnoticed? Sure. Easily. But making a necromancer's thrall turn on and kill him, only to cause its own destruction... well... consider me amused.

 

[seeker23]

Oh hell!
Illusion was my least used and least favourite magic type. Except when I used muffle and invisibility and being one of the easiest ways to get you leveled.
I finished reading this thread and Illusion just became super cool. How'd that happen???

 

[Dawn]

Lots of interesting comments, of which I find my opinion to lie somewhere in the middle.

Illusion has its uses, is a very good control school, and can be hilarious in some situations, while at the same time, like most magic IMO, I feel it is also underwhelming and lacking in certain situations.

I have read all the zillions of posts and guides all over the web about how great assassin / nightblade sneak type builds are that pair daggers and / or bows WITH illusion, and have tired many of those builds.

No matter how many I try, however, I end up getting bored and / or frustrated trying to mix physical and magic, and end up dropping the use of Illusion spells.

For me it becomes a "why bother" question if when going using Illusion AND physical damage doesn't actually improve my gameplay over using JUST physical damage, but rather seems to simply adds additional abilities for the sake of having additional abilities to use (I'm a less is more type).

This is partially because of how clunky magic works mechanically in Skyrim, from the hand equipping mechanic to the highly limited and inflexible favorites system (dual wield with multiple weapons suffers here too).

Illusion also suffers like all magic in that with all the simplifications done to TES in Skyrim, magic is left constrained by resources while not having a static method to improve its effectiveness through skills, unlike physical combat which is unconstrained by resources and which can have its static effectiveness improved through both smithing and enchanting.

If physical schools were constrained by stamina resources, or different combat styles required other attributes such as strength or agility to be increased to increase damage, or even had smithing been the craft to improve weapons while enchanting improved magic, then maybe magic wouldn't seem so lackluster compared to physical damage schools (assuming of course a better equipping / wielding / key bind system to manage spells).

After reading this thread, I will have another go at playing a magic character with a good bit of Illusion.

I'm sure I will have fun.

But I'm also sure I'll find moments that reinforce for me my feeling that magic was sort of given the short stick when it came to development and improvements with Skyrim.

 

[NachyoChez]

I won't say all magic is shafted by the design-scope. Conjuration, Restoration, and Alteration are all pretty awesome schools that scale well with most difficulties. If I was looking for where the ball was dropped the hardest, it would have to be the Master Level Spells. Yes, more work could be done in general, but I look at the final spells you can earn and in Destruction and Illusion they're just beyond terrible.

Conjuration: I gain the ability to either summon 2 permanent Atronachs or Necro-Pets; with the right selections this changes how the entire game is played. Need I point at the 'Living with the dead' thread?

Alteration: Alteration has some REALLY cool utility-spells; Transmutation, Water-Breathing, and 2 stacking armor spells that can make even Deathlords manageable. At the Master Level, even their only 'offensive spells', Paralysis, gets a 'Mass' version with great duration. Such a rock-solid transition.

Restoration: The perk tree for this is just awesome. Boosts the base spells, lets you heal allies, restores stamina, regenerate magicka faster, and in most early dungeons it also provides a solid crowd control in the turn spells. Also bolsters defenses; Restoration is by far (imho) the best-done of the Magic Schools.

Destruction: The only thing I can think about this school is that someone on the experience team was terrified of this school being the only magic school anyone would do. As such, they prevented it from being usable. Thus, at any noticeable difficulty, the damage output of this school is negligible. You can lay a rune, a wall of damage, and sling your best spell and deal less damage than my one handed sword-that's just not right. This leaves anyone wanting to focus on this form of magic with only the option of using the gimmicky stagger from dual wielding-completely nullifying all of the Master level spells in one swoop. Biggest letdown of the game, imho.

Illusion: Believe it or not, there is a difference between the Apprentice/Novice level spells and the Adept/Expert versions. The early spells only hit a single target, while the later have AOEs. If not for the horrifically low cap on the early versions, this might actually have been an important difference. The worst part, for me, are the master level spells. Despite costing more Magicka and taking FOREVER to charge, they are actually WEAKER spells. Dual-casting Frenzy will get anything that isn't a Dragon. Mayhem, on the other hand, can never get a Deathlord. Quiet literally, the ONLY Master-Level spell Illusion even gets is Call to Arms. The worst part is the easy-fix... have 'Harmony' cause all targets to be friendly to you (they fight along side you for a few seconds), remove Mayhem and Rout. Replace them with Mass Muffle and Mass Invisbility. Boom, fully functional and usable school!

 

[Daelon DuLac]

As a relative newby to magic use, I have to agree with NachyoChez

 

[Ender]

I don't think Illusion is ever low-level. If anything making it any stronger would be broken. Between Illusion and Conjuration I can Calm a room of enemies, access the situation in peace, pick one to Fury wait for him to get killed. Calm again. Raise dead. Fury a different mob. Calm spell is just ridiculously good, Fury isn't far behind.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I don't think Illusion is ever low-level. If anything making it any stronger would be broken. Between Illusion and Conjuration I can Calm a room of enemies, access the situation in peace, pick one to Fury wait for him to get killed. Calm again. Raise dead. Fury a different mob. Calm spell is just ridiculously good, Fury isn't far behind.

Are we playing the same game? For the life of me I don't get those affects at all. While Fury is amusing in some cases as is Frenzy, I really don't find them very useful. Calm is fine against an individual if I want to kill them, but, what's the point. The last thing I want to do is go through the game not doing any harm. Just my opinion. I'm probably wrong.

 

[Ender]

But that doesn't mean the school sucks or is underpowered, it just means its not the right play-style for you. I hate sneaking and think its a huge waste of time. There's no reason for it - it slows my play down, makes me feel like a camping troll and is just no fun. I don't call it useless or underpowered though. Its just not the right style for me. Illusion however is great. Can run straight into a room - fluff sneaking - calm everyone in it and then start some mayhem. Or just keep running right through to my destination. No reason to slow down when you have calm on your side.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

But that doesn't mean the school sucks or is underpowered, it just means its not the right play-style for you. I hate sneaking and think its a huge waste of time. There's no reason for it - it slows my play down, makes me feel like a camping troll and is just no fun. I don't call it useless or underpowered though. Its just not the right style for me. Illusion however is great. Can run straight into a room - fluff sneaking - calm everyone in it and then start some mayhem. Or just keep running right through to my destination. No reason to slow down when you have calm on your side.

You're right. I shouldn't criticize. I luv sneaking. If I can avoid the conflict and kill 'em all, I will. I guess it just isn't my play style, or at least I haven't gotten around to being that skilled.

I always find it facinating how others play. Some of it I can't grasp.

I hope I didn't offend.

 

[LotusEater]

I don't think Illusion is ever low-level. If anything making it any stronger would be broken. Between Illusion and Conjuration I can Calm a room of enemies, access the situation in peace, pick one to Fury wait for him to get killed. Calm again. Raise dead. Fury a different mob. Calm spell is just ridiculously good, Fury isn't far behind.

Are we playing the same game? For the life of me I don't get those affects at all. While Fury is amusing in some cases as is Frenzy, I really don't find them very useful. Calm is fine against an individual if I want to kill them, but, what's the point. The last thing I want to do is go through the game not doing any harm. Just my opinion. I'm probably wrong.

Calm and Frenzy are extremely useful. Sneak up on a bandit camp and Frenzy one or two of em. You'll never find a better distraction. Calm is great against that pesky archer you just don't have time to deal with atm or the bandit leader that's right in your face.

Right now my build is strictly bound weapons/runes for ranged and Frenzy Rune is useful.

Btw, I'm finding that Poison Rune is a very efficient way to level Restoration.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I don't think Illusion is ever low-level. If anything making it any stronger would be broken. Between Illusion and Conjuration I can Calm a room of enemies, access the situation in peace, pick one to Fury wait for him to get killed. Calm again. Raise dead. Fury a different mob. Calm spell is just ridiculously good, Fury isn't far behind.

Are we playing the same game? For the life of me I don't get those affects at all. While Fury is amusing in some cases as is Frenzy, I really don't find them very useful. Calm is fine against an individual if I want to kill them, but, what's the point. The last thing I want to do is go through the game not doing any harm. Just my opinion. I'm probably wrong.

Calm and Frenzy are extremely useful. Sneak up on a bandit camp and Frenzy one or two of em. You'll never find a better distraction. Calm is great against that pesky archer you just don't have time to deal with atm or the bandit leader that's right in your face.

Right now my build is strictly bound weapons/runes for ranged and Frenzy rune is extremely useful.

Btw, I'm finding that Poison Rune is an extremely efficient way to level Restoration.

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

 

[LotusEater]

Are we playing the same game? For the life of me I don't get those affects at all. While Fury is amusing in some cases as is Frenzy, I really don't find them very useful. Calm is fine against an individual if I want to kill them, but, what's the point. The last thing I want to do is go through the game not doing any harm. Just my opinion. I'm probably wrong.

Calm and Frenzy are extremely useful. Sneak up on a bandit camp and Frenzy one or two of em. You'll never find a better distraction. Calm is great against that pesky archer you just don't have time to deal with atm or the bandit leader that's right in your face.

Right now my build is strictly bound weapons/runes for ranged and Frenzy rune is extremely useful.

Btw, I'm finding that Poison Rune is an extremely efficient way to level Restoration.

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

Seems to me the key is to remain hidden. That's why Quiet Casting is so crucial. Plus it's worth it to try and target the one you think looks strongest, that way they last a little bit before getting dogpiled.

 

[NachyoChez]

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

It's important to note that they don't hit multiple until you get the Adept/Expert versions, and that they're just splash zones; to get a room all at once you'll need to find a way to group them together. Thing is, once one guy is frenzied all of his friends are hostile to him as well; so long as they don't find you they'll slaughter each other. When they clump up for that, throw another frenzy and get them all good and riled up.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Calm and Frenzy are extremely useful. Sneak up on a bandit camp and Frenzy one or two of em. You'll never find a better distraction. Calm is great against that pesky archer you just don't have time to deal with atm or the bandit leader that's right in your face.

Right now my build is strictly bound weapons/runes for ranged and Frenzy rune is extremely useful.

Btw, I'm finding that Poison Rune is an extremely efficient way to level Restoration.

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

Seems to me the key is to remain hidden. That's why Quiet Casting is so crucial. Plus it's worth it to try and target the one you think looks strongest, that way they last a little bit before getting dogpiled.

Agree. That's another kettle of fish though. Please - I only just learned how to make Elswyr Fondue, using illusion well and making it work for me, it's gonna take a while.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

It's important to note that they don't hit multiple until you get the Adept/Expert versions, and that they're just splash zones; to get a room all at once you'll need to find a way to group them together. Thing is, once one guy is frenzied all of his friends are hostile to him as well; so long as they don't find you they'll slaughter each other. When they clump up for that, throw another frenzy and get them all good and riled up.

Good info. Of course I would be dead by then so it wouldn't matter anyhow. I guess I'll stick with my battle mage/spell sword builds. At least that way I can defend myself while SLOWLY perking up my magic.

 

[LotusEater]

I agree that fury, frenzy and calm are great against the single opponent and can be extremely amusing too (good show!). I've never been able to make them work against a group though.

It's important to note that they don't hit multiple until you get the Adept/Expert versions, and that they're just splash zones; to get a room all at once you'll need to find a way to group them together. Thing is, once one guy is frenzied all of his friends are hostile to him as well; so long as they don't find you they'll slaughter each other. When they clump up for that, throw another frenzy and get them all good and riled up.

Good info. Of course I would be dead by then so it wouldn't matter anyhow. I guess I'll stick with my battle mage/spell sword builds. At least that way I can defend myself while SLOWLY perking up my magic.

Chain Lightning ftw... it shoots around corners.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

It's important to note that they don't hit multiple until you get the Adept/Expert versions, and that they're just splash zones; to get a room all at once you'll need to find a way to group them together. Thing is, once one guy is frenzied all of his friends are hostile to him as well; so long as they don't find you they'll slaughter each other. When they clump up for that, throw another frenzy and get them all good and riled up.

Good info. Of course I would be dead by then so it wouldn't matter anyhow. I guess I'll stick with my battle mage/spell sword builds. At least that way I can defend myself while SLOWLY perking up my magic.

Chain Lightning ftw... it shoots around corners.

Oh yeah! Luv that chain lightening. I've been known to blow multiple bandits off plateaus with it.

 

[LotusEater]

Good info. Of course I would be dead by then so it wouldn't matter anyhow. I guess I'll stick with my battle mage/spell sword builds. At least that way I can defend myself while SLOWLY perking up my magic.

Chain Lightning ftw... it shoots around corners.

Oh yeah! Luv that chain lightening. I've been known to blow multiple bandits off plateaus with it.

It's a great spell. Recently I was in a mine and a bandit started to run away, so I wheeled and shot and totally shanked it, but the bolt bounced off the wall and nailed her in the back. Joy.

 

[Tharkun Whiteflame]

Illusion in Skyrim is mostly mind-magic. There are no opitical illusions in it except for Invisibility. The muffle spell and silent casting perk are the two good sound illusions. Throw voice is a shout but would have been a wonderful illusion spell.

Illusion suffers in that unless you specialize and use it heavily it level caps quickly. You have to devote quite a few perks to making illusion useful and it needs dual casting.

There are four basic effects in Illusion:

1. calming stuff.
2. making stuff attack each other and their allies.
3. concealment (invis, muffle).
4. buffing allies (little used).

Destruction interacts with the environment quite well and feels much more interesting. You have three damage types and five effects from each. Fire, Lightning and Cold with single target projectiles, area projectiles, runes, wall and cloaks. In addition the master spells are each unique. Destruction never fails due to level, Illusions just don't work on some things right off the bat and never works on everything no matter how perked out you are.

In addition the main way to solve problems presented by the game is to kill something. Illusion has no way to kill a solo guy. some problems are just not solvable by Illusion.

I tried to like it but failed. Ultimately I take it only because it is easy to level and when I am at the point I want to legendary skills just to get more perk points I consider Illusion as one of the ways to do so.

 

[Ender]

Tharkun,

The same could be said though Restoration, Alteration, Alchemy, Enchanting, Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Pickpocketing, Speech, Sneak, and Smithing.

Only Archery, 1H, 2H, Destruction, and Conjuration have offensive abilities that are capable of working against all mobs.