DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I mean I never see them with anything electronic.
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar's_Legion#Technology
I mean I never see them with anything electronic.
Asides from super sledges it seems I am right.
The Legion appears to use radios as shown atCottonwood Cove HQ but overall opts for devices that use no power. The Legion does not need or truly desire power sources like the NCR, but at no point oppose its usage as they do with chems, alcohol and combat robots.
The interesting thing about the Legion is what you can find "On paper" and read about. Compared to what you actually experience in the games. This isn't an Imperials vs Stormcloaks things where the lore and information is important.
If being under Legion rule is so great... Why are people not jumping at the chance to join them? Simply put the reality of the Legion is quite brutal.
The Opening Cinematic
which I love I think gives the only unbiased information you really seem to get from the game itself. And happily covers both the NCR and Legion.
That is why you talk to people, talk to factions. Sure the Legion is brutal, but so too can the NCR be. The NCR's Military doesn't like being in the role of peacekeeper, so majority of crimes are punishable by death.
Aye That is why I am going to do a second playthrough. maybe get all the DLC and such. Really try to experience the world for once. Depending on your character (Which I think it interesting how I can RP play Fallout easier than TES while actually playing) the better option can actually change drastically based off traits.
then helping the NCR get back on it's feet to help everyone else is the thing to do.
NENALATA said: ↑
then helping the NCR get back on it's feet to help everyone else is the thing to do.Helping them get back on it's feet?
The NCR isn't weak, they're powerful. The problems they're having is because all the best soldiers are back west protecting two headed cows.
They can barely protect citizens. But if you have land, they'll try take it. Even if they can't protect it, or even use it. That is greed.
No more greedy than surrounding a tribe that has done no harm to you... and raping it to the bone. Nailing anyone 'not of use' to wooden crosses and enslaving the men and child-bearing capable women.
At least with the NCR I might can clear things up with a simple phone call to the bank.
Also, if you look at a map, if NCR loses Nevada, she'll be split in half by the Legion. Able to raid North and South Cali. NCR will collapse within a few years - if that - after losing Nevada. Like the Empire in Tamriel, just in a different way however very much in the same manner.
NENALATA said: ↑
No more greedy than surrounding a tribe that has done no harm to you... and raping it to the bone. Nailing anyone 'not of use' to wooden crosses and enslaving the men and child-bearing capable women.Yeah, they conquer tribes. It's harsh, but it was needed to gather more soldiers in preparing to take the Mojave.
They don't nail you to crosses. They tie you to it.
NENALATA said: ↑
At least with the NCR I might can clear things up with a simple phone call to the bank. Legion is on the brink of change, they seek to make New Vegas their Rome. Forge an Empire.
NENALATA said: ↑
Also, if you look at a map, if NCR loses Nevada, she'll be split in half by the Legion. Able to raid North and South Cali. NCR will collapse within a few years - if that - after losing Nevada. Like the Empire in Tamriel, just in a different way however very much in the same manner.The problems with NCR, is that their politics are owned by Brahmin Barons. They're corrupt, even the Head of the Rangers is falsifying Intelligence reports and deliberately miscommunicating information sent in from various NCR outposts .
If he's caught out, he commits suicide. The NCR stretched themselves too far, and spread too thin. Even if they win the Mojave they can't protect it.
The Legion however, they do protect subjects. There is zero corruption, and all subjects enjoy a stable consistent supply of electricity, food and water. They also enjoy safety, since raiders are more scared of the Legion and flee to lands further away.
NCR has to patrol their lands, and traders have to move with armed mercenaries. You can walk alone across Legion lands, and not have trouble.
It's unnecessary. Caesar just made a name for himself on the blood and ashes of his victims. Hardly a noble deed in any respect. Furthermore, there is no need for him to conquer the Mojave. Forget about the NCR for a sec, Mr House and his New Vegas are the pinnacle of Civilization in the Mojave and New Vegas belongs to them. MR House has protected New Vegas ever since the bombs fell and New Vegas will continue to prosper without the Legion's chains.
Ahhh smell that ambition. I love the smell of napalm at... 1,2,3, 11pm at night.
The Legion does need change. And when the Courier sends the Legate back home to fix all the problems the Legion currently has, things will change. Even The Legate himself admits the Legion is over stretched and their expansions Westward were too costly. The Courier does him a favor by being the voice of reason.
Politics suck everywhere you go. The Brahmin Barons play an important part in the NCR's economy, which is doing good in California and everywhere else except for the Mojave. But the Mojave is contested, it's like a demilitarized zone, so you can't judge the NCR solely on how things are going in the Mojave. Several NPCs confirm that back in Cali, things are doing very well. Raiders are all but extinct, everyone has a good quality of life.
And so... the Legion had a bad Legate once upon a time who got most of Caesar's Legion annihilated by the NCR. With the NCR, there's a chain of command for dealing with these types of things. There was another high ranking Centurion who didn't commit suicide and allowed himself to be captured and interrogated. Same difference.
Just because you have someone abusing their authority, doesn't make the organization not worth saving. People make mistakes. The Powder Gangers are testament to that. And yet, the NCR deals with it in a just, civilized manner and goes on.
This is irrelevant because once the NCR takes back Hoover Damm, there is an option to have the Brotherhood of Steel restore the old Alliance with the NCR. Once this is done, the BoS joins NCR and patrols the Mojave. Escorts will always be required, however, Caesar's Legion goes into full retreat once the NCR wins the Damm. However, while the Mojave is being contested, being essentially a war zone, yes sir, I would expect heavy escorts traveling with any trading outfit.
NENALATA said: ↑
It's unnecessary. Caesar just made a name for himself on the blood and ashes of his victims. Hardly a noble deed in any respect. Furthermore, there is no need for him to conquer the Mojave. Forget about the NCR for a sec, Mr House and his New Vegas are the pinnacle of Civilization in the Mojave and New Vegas belongs to them. MR House has protected New Vegas ever since the bombs fell and New Vegas will continue to prosper without the Legion's chains.Caesar seeks New Vegas as his Rome. The same could be said about the NCR, they have no need being there. They just wanted more things.
NENALATA said: ↑
Ahhh smell that ambition. I love the smell of napalm at... 1,2,3, 11pm at night.The Legion does need change. And when the Courier sends the Legate back home to fix all the problems the Legion currently has, things will change. Even The Legate himself admits the Legion is over stretched and their expansions Westward were too costly. The Courier does him a favor by being the voice of reason.Of course the expansion Westward was costly, after you just cut through half their forces. The Legion is newly formed, only decades old. The NCR hasn't or doesn't want to change.
NENALATA said: ↑
Politics suck everywhere you go. The Brahmin Barons play an important part in the NCR's economy, which is doing good in California and everywhere else except for the Mojave. But the Mojave is contested, it's like a demilitarized zone, so you can't judge the NCR solely on how things are going in the Mojave. Several NPCs confirm that back in Cali, things are doing very well. Raiders are all but extinct, everyone has a good quality of life.You can judge the NCR solely on the Mojave. Their best soldiers are protecting two headed cows back west. The only reason they had problems is because they couldn't annex Vegas. So they were stuck holding their position.
They try to emulate Pre-War America, but aren't in a Pre-War world to make it work. They've just become corrupt, and unable to function properly. Merely wanting more and more. Spreading further, pushing people out of their homes.
Can't even bother properly equipping or training majority of the soldiers on the front lines. They're either not caring, or the best at pleading poverty.
NENALATA said: ↑
And so... the Legion had a bad Legate once upon a time who got most of Caesar's Legion annihilated by the NCR. With the NCR, there's a chain of command for dealing with these types of things. There was another high ranking Centurion who didn't commit suicide and allowed himself to be captured and interrogated. Same difference.That isn't the same. That Legate was actually good, just he was defeated by better tactics and planning. The Legion had never faced a more tougher opponent than the NCR.
NENALATA said: ↑
Just because you have someone abusing their authority, doesn't make the organization not worth saving. People make mistakes. The Powder Gangers are testament to that. And yet, the NCR deals with it in a just, civilized manner and goes on.When the organization is as corrupt and greedy as they are, what is there to save? Going back to taking more lands without purpose? Just because they're greedy. Be controlled by Brahmin Barons, which don't simply play an important part in politics, they own the politics.
The idea of the NCR is great, sounds good. In practice not so much.
NENALATA said: ↑
This is irrelevant because once the NCR takes back Hoover Damm, there is an option to have the Brotherhood of Steel restore the old Alliance with the NCR. Once this is done, the BoS joins NCR and patrols the Mojave. Escorts will always be required, however, Caesar's Legion goes into full retreat once the NCR wins the Damm. However, while the Mojave is being contested, being essentially a war zone, yes sir, I would expect heavy escorts traveling with any trading outfit.You ever notice that you gain NCR infamy for forming that alliance? NCR superiors don't like it. Also they don't restore the old alliance, since they're still fighting back west. It's a temporary solution. One that the NCR will break overtime when they want heavy troopers in salvaged power armor again.
Traders require escorts through NCR lands, even back west apparently. They should focus on their own issues, before constantly spreading themselves further and further. Only because their eyes are bigger than what they can eat.
The NCR has declined, into nothing more than a child who wants more toys for the sake of having more toys.
The Legion has purpose, direction. Caesar understands them well.
The NCR has declined, into nothing more than a child who wants more toys for the sake of having more toys.
NCR wants New Vegas but they're not fanatical about it. I want a million dollars but I'm not going to go stick people on crosses for disagreeing with my means of getting it. Caesar doesn't need New Vegas. NCR doesn't really need it either. New Vegas really belongs to the 'natives', Mr House and the people who've lived there for generations. NCR got involved because the Mojave Rangers needed protection from Caesar's Legion. The NCR is there because Caesar is there. It's like Indians losing their land all over again and the NCR has agreed to protect them in exchange for some benefits. I would agree with you that if Caesar left the NCR would have no reason for being there. Of course, then again, by saving New Vegas from Caesar, the NCR has earned the right to be there.
Okay. Then it does no good to have the whole world and lose what you started with. Because that's what would happen. The Legion is good at winning battles but not wars. The Legion needs to slow down and fix it's own problems.
You can't judge NCR based solely on how things are going in the middle of a contested, demilitarized zone. You need to at least consider how Cali and other areas are doing as well.
Furthermore, it sounds like in that second paragraph you're describing Caesar's Legion perfectly. About wanting more and more, becoming corrupt, unable to function properly. Ever pressing West but leaving itself behind back East. Because Caesar will not live much longer and the more wars the Legion fights, the faster it will disintegrate. There's a reason why the Legate left, even he somewhere on the inside has a fundamental disagreement with Caesar's policies.
As for the NCR military, compared to Caesar's Legion, they're very well equipped depending on their rank and purpose. The NCR even has actual Power Armor Units. Where the NCR supply lines are stretched thin, yes the Military bases will do without. But that's not everywhere and is expected in a war. Caesar's supply lines may be in better shape however his soldiers are equipped with even less than the NCR.
NCR troopers are givin training in marksmanship and basically urban warfare. They can use Guns, Explosives and Melee Weapons effectively. They also have Rangers, Power Armor Units, Vertibirds, MPs and Shock Troopers with 'gutted' Power Armor.
The Legion has a different style military, with the top people being sufficiently equipped and sending out most of the soldiers as cannon fodder, leaving them to defend themselves with the equivalent of 'wooden spoons'. You can talk all day about how good a Machete is on this and that but when you have a NCR Trooper with a Service Rifle and Combat Knife, there's no contest.
NCR Service Rifle is extremely reliable and .556 ammo is common and cheap. Anyone in the army knows to take care of the equipment like themselves, however, if the Rifle jams they still have training in Explosives and Melee weaponry.
NCR Trooper is a very well-rounded soldier as opposed to most of Caesar's Army, whose purpose is for the most part to run and die out fear of punishment with poor training and almost no equipment to speak of.
You said yourself the NCR is old and has been around for a while. They have 'skin in the game' as well as years of experience. You're blaming the entire organization for being corrupt and greedy and this and that...
The NCR is finding new ways to produce wealth where by creating JOBS where there wouldn't be any by printing money. This makes sense because CAPS are very valuable, almost like say... Silver Coins, Silver Eagles. But that's the thing... by manipulating the currency a little, it adds more value to CAPS and provides a secondary currency that's worth half the value in CAPS. Which is not being greedy, it buys jobs.
It's like this. Alright, Mage, let's say you wanted to work for me and the only form of currency is for me to pay you in Silver Dollars. But the thing is, I'm over-paying you. When I can pay you in Dollars which is paying you what you actually earned. So, me paying you Silver Dollars is going to drive me out of business, when paying less is more. People whom before couldn't have jobs, will now be able to make a decent living off paper money instead of CAPS.
You're not going to like this and most people wouldn't. However, this encourages small business and other avenues of economic growth because I, as a business man or entrepreneur or investor, can pay less for a product or service. Which helps everyone, even the consumer.
Let's say, ahh... Mage you're at the Gun Runners and you want to buy an Anti-Matter Rifle for hunting Stormcloaks. You can pay me 10,000 in CAPS or you pay me 6,000 in NCR money. Of course, they have to accept the NCR bucks. But that's the principle behind this. Which is an excellent idea I think.
The General is all for it. He's almost ecstatic about that, "I've put in a few calls and our allies are on their way."
The NCR has so far shown *good faith* in majority of their dealings with other factions. Mistakes have been made, but those weren't intentional.
Furthermore, for the NCR to be the ONLY faction to allow an Alliance at all with the Brotherhood is very compelling. Not to mention how the NCR ALSO makes Alliances with every. other. major. faction. The options are there. Everyone may not be happy with it, but that again, is irrelevant. I'm not happy with my roommate every day but just like the NCR, I deal with it.
If the NCR had any real malicious intent, they wouldn't bother with making so many Alliances. The NCR just wants to survive and in doing so, the Mojave will become unified and protected. Mending old wounds hurts at first but in time those 'feelings' will go away.
Again, the NCR is making Alliance with everyone regardless of 'who they are' or what happened back when. NCR is not better than everyone else. The NCR does NOT seek to change everyone or force themselves into people's lives like the Legion does.
The NCR as you said, is old and has been around for a while. Everything the NCR has it's earned. NCR *defeated the Enclave*. They're not children and the fact the NCR *puts aside* it's differences with the Boomers, BoS, Enclave, Khans, proves they're not childish by any means. The NCR has earned the right to live by proving their worth to mankind. Obviously the NCR hasn't declined that much because they put up one hell of a fight at Hoover Damm and defeat the Legion in every advance, if the Courier chooses to help them. Like the Empire in Tamriel, sometimes you just have to ignore the haters and believe in them.
Forcing EVERYONE to think and live their lives YOUR WAY is very selfish and that is the definition of childish, which describes Caesar perfectly.
DrunkenMage,
You're attacking the NCR's humanity. The fact that the NCR has some issues just means they're human, with strengths and weaknesses. I'm more concerned about the "In-Human" aspects of the Legion. Not feeling any remorse or compassion. Never thinking of the suffering they carry out on others who just want to live their lives and be good people. Being Tribal does NOT give you the right to rape/subjugate and murder them.