Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

You have to look at what the game presents us, many seem to think the Stormcloak victory in Skyrim won't harm them, they'll become great and trade and form alliances... That is wishful thinking and goes against everything that is shown to you in the game. Stormcloaks do not buy from Non-Nords that throws out trade. Alliances with who? The Bretons? "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us." - Galmar Stone-Fist

Independence is a good thing and just because Hammerfell did it doesn't mean Skyrim can, Hammerfell has infighting between factions, be like Clan wars in Skyrim if they wanted to follow Hammerfell's political stance. Not to mention people seem to dislike Tullius being in charge because he isn't a Nord, even though he does put Legate Rikke in charge of helping the Governments of Skyrim.

I can safely say I much rather Legate Rikke in charge than Galmar.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again." - Rikke

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders. Can't say I'm looking forward to that. But, I'll also be training men and women for their new armies. The Empire might send over a few Legionnaires to make sure we're serious, and of course, we'll be taking the fight to the elves soon enough. We'll need trained, disciplined and creative warriors ready for all that." - Galmar

 

[Anouck]

Stormcloaks don't want to rule Tamriel... They just want to rule their rightful homeland, Skyrim, That's all.

I think he means it is all about priority. Do you want the best for Skyrim or Tamriel?

 

[Karen]

But how would a Stormcloak victory be what's best for Skyrim? In seceding from the Empire, it will no longer be under the protection of the White-Gold Concordat (because, yes, although the terms are unfavorable, it has at least temporarily stopped the Aldmeri Dominion from openly attacking everyone in sight). They will regain the right to worship Talos, and Skyrim will truly be a land of the Nords, but how long would that last?

 

[The Laoch]

But how would a Stormcloak victory be what's best for Skyrim? In seceding from the Empire, it will no longer be under the protection of the White-Gold Concordat (because, yes, although the terms are unfavorable, it has at least temporarily stopped the Aldmeri Dominion from openly attacking everyone in sight). They will regain the right to worship Talos, and Skyrim will truly be a land of the Nords, but how long would that last?

The Redguards are not under the White-Gold Concordat, they seem pretty good with controlling Hammerfell. I don't see any Aldmeri troops bossing them around.

 

[Karen]

The Redguards are not under the White-Gold Concordat, they seem pretty good with controlling Hammerfell. I don't see any Aldmeri troops bossing them around.

But Hammerfell's success was largely a result of the Crowns and Forebears finally working together, instead of what the Stormcloaks have done by initiating a civil war and weakening their own forces as well as the Empires'.

 

[Raijin]

But how would a Stormcloak victory be what's best for Skyrim? In seceding from the Empire, it will no longer be under the protection of the White-Gold Concordat (because, yes, although the terms are unfavorable, it has at least temporarily stopped the Aldmeri Dominion from openly attacking everyone in sight). They will regain the right to worship Talos, and Skyrim will truly be a land of the Nords, but how long would that last?

Under the protection of the White-Gold Concordat, eh? Theirs nothing good about this treaty other than to clearly favor the Aldmeri Dominion, and giving them 1 step foot of controlling man.

Base on what I've witnessed after a Stormcloak victory:

Talos worshiping is restored. The new Jarl of Whiterun indicates high interests of building a Talos temple, and wants to have Heimskr to be in charge of the Temple. For Imperial victory Heimskr goes to the Dragonreach prison, and nothing new changes.

Under Stormcloak victory theirs no more Thalmor that spawns on the roads with prisoners therefor this clearly indicates that the Stormcloaks drove most of the Thalmor out of Skyrim by now. This also means that the Thalmor can no longer torment and harass Talos worshipers on their own home land. Under Imperial victory (base on what I've read here) The Thalmor are still on the roads harassing Talos worshipers, and arresting people. Not much different.

More impotently Under Stormcloak victory gives the remaining blades (Delphine and Esbern) a safe haven to regroup, and to restore. The Blades receives ZERO protection under the Empire because of the WGC that they agreed essentially giving the Thalmor the right to slaughter them all like flies. If the Empire is allowed to have 25 years of recovery at the cost many lives in causalities caused by the Thalmor than I think the Blades should have that amount of time to regroup as well under the protection of the Stormcloaks.

Here's a repost video on why the Stormcloaks are right. (I'm currently making my own version)

 

[Dagmar]

The Redguards are not under the White-Gold Concordat, they seem pretty good with controlling Hammerfell. I don't see any Aldmeri troops bossing them around.

The Redguards are protected under the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai.

Skyrim is protected by geography. There's a reason it was untouched during The Great War even though the banning of worship of Talos was one of the primary demands made by the Aldmeri Dominion before The Great War. Hammerfell or Cyrodiil or portions thereof would have to fall into the hands of the Aldmeri Dominion first. There hasn't been a navy large enough in the history of Tamriel to successfully launch a large scale naval invasion over that great a distance and through waters like the Sea of Ghosts.

 

[Dagmar]

Here's a repost video on why the Stormcloaks are right. (I'm currently making my own version)

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise decent post with this extremely LOLable, flawed, ignorant and lore misnformed video.

 

[Karen]

My point was just that the White-Gold Concordat seems to be the only thing stopping the Aldmeri Dominion from initiating open warfare against Skyrim, and without that, they won't need the pretense of illegal Talos worship to arrest and kill people.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise decent post with this extremely LOLable, flawed, ignorant and lore misnformed video.

I don't know... I find Stormcloak victory rather, well.

"We killed our friends, fathers, brothers, sisters, wives & husbands, those who would stand against us becoming free, we burnt two of our cities, great and proud cities, pushed out half our population who were loyal to the Empire. We killed Tullius our only bargaining chip for peace between the Empire, we messed up our economy and trade rights, put Ulfric on the throne to lead us all, even when his strategic skills come into question during Season Unending when he wants to remove Elenwen, we put Galmar in charge of the new Jarls of Skyrim. We did it all to push out a dozen Thalmor Agents! Now we are to attack the Aldmeri Dominion... which we can't quite get near, so we'll spam the bastards with postcards."

 

[Dagmar]

My point was just that the White-Gold Concordat seems to be the only thing stopping the Aldmeri Dominion from initiating open warfare against Skyrim, and without that, they won't need the pretense of illegal Talos worship to arrest and kill people.

The Justiciars aren't going to be arresting anyone in Skyrim with a Stormcloak victory. There numbers are relatively small in Skyrim and if they don't succcessfully flee from Skyrim to Cyrodiil or High Rock they'll be killed by the Stormcloaks. The ability to declare war with Skyrim is toothless without a realistic strategy to engage it without violating either the White-Gold Concordat by invading Cyrodiil or violating the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai with Hammerfell.

 

[Dagmar]

....we burnt two of our cities....

The cities are not significantly hurt by the sieges. Rather unrealistic but that's what the game presents to you so you can continue doing city related quests (in contrast to Kvatch in ES IV)

....pushed out half our population who were loyal to the Empire....

Never happens. While a limited number of NPCs have dialogues that indicate they might leave they are not even remotely equatable to half of the population of Skyrim and, in point of fact, they don't actually leave. The populations remain in Skyrim.

...We did it all to push out a dozen Thalmor Agents....

Aside from the rather absurd hyperbole (there are far more than a dozen Thalmor Justiciars in Skyrim unless you're about to embrace the literalism that Raijin tried to cling to in his rather lolable argument about available housing in Windhelm) it's a rather extreme act of intellectual dishonesty to characterize the goals and accomplishments of a successful Stormcloak rebellion in this manner.

 

[Raijin]

Congratulations on ruining an otherwise decent post with this extremely LOLable, flawed, ignorant and lore misnformed video.

Just because you disagree with the video doesn't mean that it's misinformed.

 

[Dagmar]

Just because you disagree with the video doesn't mean that it's misinformed.

It's not a disagreement, it's a fact. In just the first few minutes of the video the author falsely claims that the High King of Skyrim is appointed by the Emperor and that the resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell is ongoing. I could go on but that in of itself speaks volumes about the ignorance of the author of the video and the resulting fallacies in reasoning that permeate the video.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The cities are not significantly hurt by the sieges. Rather unrealistic but that's what the game presents to you so you can continue doing city related quests (in contrast to Kvatch in ES IV)
Never happens. While a limited number of NPCs have dialogues that indicate they might leave they are not even remotely equatable to half of the population of Skyrim and, in point of fact, they don't actually leave. The populations remain in Skyrim.

Aside from the rather absurd hyperbole (there are far more than a dozen Thalmor Justiciars in Skyrim unless you're about to embrace the literalism that Raijin tried to cling to in his rather lolable argument about available housing in Windhelm) it's a rather extreme act of intellectual dishonesty to characterize the goals and accomplishments of a successful Stormcloak rebellion in this manner.

Being attacked by fire, while not really doing much damage for some reason when Whiterun is basically a tinder box. I suppose realistically speaking there would be some damage even if not completely destroyed. We can't say that the Legionnaires won't be pushed out of Skyrim, they remain but in the sense they were supposed to be killed but they made an error in making the Legates essential after the war. We all know Raijin would have us believe the Thalmor are there in the thousands, while you do see them on the roads, you rarely see them in large numbers unless at the embassy, so I wouldn't count their numbers extremely high.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's not a disagreement, it's a fact. In just the first few minutes of the video the author falsely claims that the High King of Skyrim is appointed by the Emperor and that the resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell is ongoing. I could go on but that in of itself speaks volumes about the ignorance of the author of the video and the resulting fallacies in reasoning that permeate the video.

I've always wondered where people were getting the High King is appointed by the Emperor, guess that answers it.

 

[Karen]

The Justiciars aren't going to be arresting anyone in Skyrim with a Stormcloak victory. There numbers are relatively small in Skyrim and if they don't succcessfully flee from Skyrim to Cyrodiil or High Rock they'll be killed by the Stormcloaks. The ability to declare war with Skyrim is toothless without a realistic strategy to engage it without violating either the White-Gold Concordat by invading Cyrodiil or violating the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai with Hammerfell.

Poor choice of words on my part, I didn't mean "arrest" - you're right, they could not arrest anyone anymore if the Stormcloaks were to win. But even if the Thalmor that currently patrol Skyrim are toast, the Aldmeri Dominion would still learn of the results of the civil war, and since they do plan on taking Skyrim eventually, it would be a good thing for them since they won't be violating the White-Gold Concordat if they attack Skyrim after secession.

Or do you mean that it would be physically difficult to attack Skyrim without violating said treaties because the closest way to it would be through Hammerfell or Cyrodiil? I can see that being a hassle.

Stop me if I'm going in circles, still struggling to articulate my thoughts.

 

[Dagmar]

...We can't say that the Legionnaires won't be pushed out of Skyrim, they remain but in the sense they were supposed to be killed but they made an error in making the Legates essential after the war....

The Imperial Legion =/= half the population of Skyrim so I don't even now why you put this out there. The point is that those that supported the Empire don't exodus from the Province. That assertion on your part is simply false.

...We all know Raijin would have us believe the Thalmor are there in the thousands, while you do see them on the roads, you rarely see them in large numbers unless at the embassy, so I wouldn't count their numbers extremely high.

My reference to Raijin has nothing to do with what he may believe about the actual number of Justiciars. It's that he chose to ignore the fact that the cities are scaled down to make the game playable in one of the arguments he tried to present in this thread. You're claim is no better in that you're also ignoring that scaling is also applicable to certain factions such as the Imperial Legion, the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor Justiciars as well as the overall population and size of Skyrim, unless you think there are far less than a thousand combined Imperial Legionaries and Stormcloaks in Skyrim, that the population of Skyrim is smaller than that of a large township in the real world and that the size of Skyrim is smaller than the state of New Jersey. In point of fact there are over a dozen Thalmor Justiciars at Northwatch Keep which is completely occupied and run by them. Their numbers are significant in the province but ultimately it's not even the main point when you try to emasculate and trivialize what a Stormcloak victory accomplishes and the impact that the presence and authority of the Justiciars played in the misery of the population with such a transparently biased distortion of the same.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Imperial Legion =/= half the population of Skyrim so I don't even now why you put this out there. The point is that those that supported the Empire don't exodus from the Province. That assertion on your part is simply false.

My reference to Raijin has nothing to do with what he may believe about the actual number of Justiciars. It's that he chose to ignore the fact that the cities are scaled down to make the game playable in one of the arguments he tried to present in this thread. You're claim is no better in that you're also ignoring that scaling is also applicable to certain factions such as the Imperial Legion, the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor Justiciars as well as the overall population and size of Skyrim, unless you think there are far less than a thousand combined Imperial Legionaries and Stormcloaks in Skyrim, that the population of Skyrim is smaller than that of a large township in the real world and that the size of Skyrim is smaller than the state of New Jersey. In point of fact there are over a dozen Thalmor Justiciars at Northwatch Keep which is completely occupied and run by them. Their numbers are significant in the province but ultimately it's not even the main point when you try to emasculate and trivialize what a Stormcloak victory accomplishes and the impact that the presence and authority of the Justiciars played in the misery of the population with such a transparently biased distortion of the same.

I don't mean the Legion is half the population. Though you are right, I do have a question that may just be bad memory, are Oblivion cities bigger than the ones in Skyrim? It has been awhile since I have played Oblivion but the cities sort of seemed larger, just wondering if they scaled even further down.

 

[The Laoch]

I always felt that Skyrim isn't split 50/50. I always felt it was like 65/35 stormcloak favored.